Why were the boys tied in the manner they were?

[justthinkin]

I actually sort of hope you are right.For some reason that 1AM TOD is disturbing to me.I keep wondering if they were tortured over a period of time before they finally took them to the ditch at around 1AM? where two of them drowned ......I hope they were unconscious and left for dead after the initial attack as horrible as it sounds.I somehow can imagine an even more sinister scenario.I keep thinking about the "cockroach" punishment Hobbs would give to Stevie and the statements about him being forced to watch *advertiser censored*.It's sadistic.I keep wondering if Amanda has repressed memories.She may have witnessed or knows something from back then.IMO

Forget about the 1:00AM time of death. There was no way to tell the time of death with any precission in this case. Water speeds up the body's cooling and it's near impossible to determine time of death in bodies found in water. Also the WMPD, by virtue of being inept in such things removed the bodies, and they sat on the bank for two hours before the coroner even showed up. The coroner simply guessed the time of death. You or I could have just as easily guesstimated a time of death in this case, and had just as much chance of being right. And the coroner was probably wrong.

 

[Cappuccino]

It was a win-win for the prosecution. They got their convictions and the state was off the hook for any additional expenses.

If any of the Wm3 commit a crime, they will be hauled back to serve 21 years, and there will be no hearing. They will simply be repo'd like a vehicle. Plus, they will face the new charges in any crime they commit.

But they were already in prison for life, and one was already on Death Row. So what was the issue, exactly, for the prosecution? They were already in a win win situation.

So why did they move from that to conceding to a situation where the WM3 had to be granted instant freedom in return for "guilty" pleas? They already had their covictions, so why did they change their mind?

 

[justthinkin]

If there's 8 inches of slack in the laces, all you do is simply put your legs together, and reach down with your hands and untie your right ankle, and then reach down with your hands and untie your left ankle. At that stage - given that your hands and legs were never tied together - all you have to do is run. You would just have laces hanging off your wrists and other laces hanging off your ankles.

Not if you're unconscious. There was no evidence around the ligatures on Chris Byers, indicating he was either dead or unconscious, and very little evidence the other boys were conscious. If they were, a few well placed hits would take care of that too.

Say what we will, we all know these were very gruesome murders. I do think the murders were swift, and unconsciousness came swiftly. Still can't even think about it without tearing up for those poor little boys.

 

[justthinkin]

But they were already in prison for life, and one was already on Death Row. So what was the issue, exactly, for the prosecution? They were already in a win win situation.

So why did they move from that to conceding to a situation where the WM3 had to be granted instant freedom in return for "guilty" pleas? They already had their covictions, so why did they change their mind?

You'd have to ask Dustin McDaniel that, but I personally think it was for political reasons. He didn't want it hanging over his own head come next election. Politicians are funny about having anything negative out there that can be used against them in an election.

One thing supporters and nons will agree on is that the deal stinks regardless which side we're on, and though our reasons for thinking so differ. Justice took a hike, and we all know it!

 

[HRCODEPINK]

You'd have to ask Dustin McDaniel that, but I personally think it was for political reasons. He didn't want it hanging over his own head come next election.

One thing supporters and nons will agree on is that the deal stinks regardless which side we're on, and though our reasons for thinking so differ. Justice took a hike, and we all know it!

BBM

Well one thing that I have to admit is that I can't say a loud enough Amen! to that.

I was telling Steve last night that I wish that they would take all of this evidence that they claim to have, make a Paradise Lost 4 and then show real documents and real proof of what they claim to have and put the whole thing out for free in theaters all over AR and then let them decide. If it is true that it was someone else and they have some sort of proof that would lead a reasonable jury to let them go and go after others, they should show all of it to everyone and cause the state of AR to demand justice, wherever that may lead. I believe in their innocence, which I am sure is clear. But if I am wrong, I want to know the truth.

 

[Cappuccino]

Not if you're unconscious. There was no evidence around the ligatures on Chris Byers, indicating he was either dead or unconscious, and very little evidence the other boys were conscious. If they were, a few well placed hits would take care of that too.

Say what we will, we all know these were very gruesome murders. I do think the murders were swift, and unconsciousness came swiftly. Still can't even think about it without tearing up for those poor little boys.

Are you pulling my leg?

I already told you that the forensic evidence showed that all the boys were either dead, or unconscious, before they were tied up. Of COURSE there was no evidence around the ligatures of the victims. They were dead, God love them, before those laces were tied.

 

[claudicici]

BBM

Well one thing that I have to admit is that I can't say a loud enough Amen! to that.

I was telling Steve last night that I wish that they would take all of this evidence that they claim to have, make a Paradise Lost 4 and then show real documents and real proof of what they claim to have and put the whole thing out for free in theaters all over AR and then let them decide. If it is true that it was someone else and they have some sort of proof that would lead a reasonable jury to let them go and go after others, they should show all of it to everyone and cause the state of AR to demand justice, wherever that may lead. I believe in their innocence, which I am sure is clear. But if I am wrong, I want to know the truth.

:loser: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-documentary-czar-sheila-nevins-226563

 

[HRCODEPINK]

:loser: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-documentary-czar-sheila-nevins-226563

That is fabulous.

 

[Boytwnmom]

at this case which I had never followed. I can't pretend to know an eighth of a smidgen as much as any of you but I did take the time to skim through the alleged "confessions" which seem to form the bulk of the "evidence" against them. I was struck by the sequence of events with JM and how his fairly apparent diminished mental capacity was used against him and the other boys. I would love to hear what LE said to him that wasn't recorded. Even his first statements don't appear to match reality, from the time he got together with the others to the crime scene activities, to the skinning and eating of dogs. I recall LE suggesting that Damien ate the dog's penis but JM said no, he only ate the "meat"....and LE had to ask him if he knew what a penis was so they clearly knew he had some level of mental disability.

How much of his confession was found to be credible? He didn't even know they had been tied with their shoelaces but rather said they were tied with a "rope" which is hardly the same thing and something it makes zero sense to lie about during your "confession". Were there really satanic rituals, dog skinning and eating, orgies? I have to say that I would tend to doubt it and if he was making that "story" up why would the crime related story be true especially as it was obviously inaccurate in it's details. Much of what he said frankly sounded absurd and I'm astounded it would be treated as credible by LE. It reminded me of the spate of child sex abuse preschool cases where recitations of bizarre sex acts and rituals that could have never really occurred were elicited from children.

It also seemed JM was not even aware of what the process was in terms of who was "on his side". He seemed to favor LE over his own attorney in terms of who he believed. We all know that LE can freely lie to suspects and I can't help but imagine it didn't take much to "win" JM over and have him relate a "story" that, although inconsistent with reality, would be enough to satisfy those involved who were likely under great pressure to find someone guilty. They might even have believed it and though Damien was some bizarre satanic priest.

I also know this type of plea deal is highly unusual. There is no way the state was confident in it's case nor do I think they likely still believe these men are guilty although they may try to convince themselves of it to keep their conscience at bay. I hope they keep working to prove their innocence.

But more importantly still, Damien Echols walked into court from Death Row, pleaded guilty, and walked out of court with a sentence of time served and a token 10 yr unsupervised probation with no travel restrictions.

It was America's weirdest plea deal, and anyone who isn't curious enough to wonder why, well maybe there's just none so blind as those who don't want to see.

 

[21merc7]

Hunters do not hogtie their kill. Most deer are too heavy to lift. If killed in remote places, they are quartered and packed out by horse, mule or 4 wheeler or carried out on a make shift travois. Most hunters simply drive their vehicle to where the deer lays, and lift it up on the tailgate. Some deer are small enough to lift, and hunters are continuously warned about carrying them on their shoulders due to the risk of being shot by an inexperienced hunter. It is important to the hunter not to drag the carcass on the ground because rocks can damage the meat.

My father was a hunter, he brought food home for us to eat. Some of it was tied up so he could carry it. Not all kill is deer. Not all kill is one animal, it can be several. Just saying.

 

[I Must Break You]

Hunters do not hogtie their kill. Most deer are too heavy to lift. If killed in remote places, they are quartered and packed out by horse, mule or 4 wheeler or carried out on a make shift travois. Most hunters simply drive their vehicle to where the deer lays, and lift it up on the tailgate. Some deer are small enough to lift, and hunters are continuously warned about carrying them on their shoulders due to the risk of being shot by an inexperienced hunter. It is important to the hunter not to drag the carcass on the ground because rocks can damage the meat.

I have to disagree with your last sentence there. I live in the Shenandoah Valley and grew up hunting in the Appalachian and Blue Ridge mountains and in most cases you can't drive your vehicle to where your deer lay, and four wheelers (if you own one) typically won't get you to where you need to go. You never ever carry a deer over your shoulder, but I'd say in these parts hunters 95% of the time drag their kill. A few bumps on some rocks is not gonna damage any meat.

 

[claudicici]

I know this idea might be very far fetched but I was thinking about Hobb's pentecostal background and if I remember correctly there was another case in West Memphis were a child died during an exorcism? Could the tying have been part of something like an exorcism?
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200901/200901_112_Theo_Enrichment.cfm

 

[h818]

But more importantly still, Damien Echols walked into court from Death Row, pleaded guilty, and walked out of court with a sentence of time served and a token 10 yr unsupervised probation with no travel restrictions.

It was America's weirdest plea deal, and anyone who isn't curious enough to wonder why, well maybe there's just none so blind as those who don't want to see.

I don't need to wonder why, I know why. $$$ and Hollywood. If there was some piece of compelling, exculpatory evidence, it would be publicized.

 

[Nova]

I don't need to wonder why, I know why. $$$ and Hollywood. If there was some piece of compelling, exculpatory evidence, it would be publicized.

You're kidding, right? This isn't the first case that has caught the attention of Hollywood celebrities, but it is the first where convicted murderers had their sentences vacated in exchange for an Alford plea.

There's no way the prosecution thought it could win a retrial. They didn't even wait to see what would come out at the December evidentiary hearing, because they knew they'd convicted the wrong guys and wanted no more attention paid to that fact.

 

[Cappuccino]

I don't need to wonder why, I know why. $$$ and Hollywood. If there was some piece of compelling, exculpatory evidence, it would be publicized.

There was never any compelling piece of inculpatory evidence in the first place, we all heard the state read out their list of evidence to be presented at the evidentiary hearing, and it was pathetic. People who haven't grasped the notion that innocent people make confessions would be fooled, but most people know in this day and age that the existence of a confession is not enough. If it was, the Central Park Five, (all five of whom confessed to a crime they didn't commit), would still be behind bars, as would the Guildford Four, Judith Ward, the Birmingham Six, Stefan Sisko, the Maguire Seven, and many, many others.

Apart from the confessions, the state had a jailhouse snitch and two little girls. I don't blame Scott Ellington at all for making the decision he made. Nobody in their right mind would want to prosecute that case. It was a turkey.

 

[askfornina]

alright guys, sorry i have to ask this, but are there pictures of the discovery site with the bodies? i have searched and i can't find them. were they not released? are all descriptions based on documents?

 

[nephers]

askfornia, There are photos on the callahan site. I can't remember exactly what they showed but you can check there.

 

[askfornina]

askfornia, There are photos on the callahan site. I can't remember exactly what they showed but you can check there.

i checked in the "photos" section and there is a lot of pictures of the woods and etc, but none of the actual bodies. i don't see them at least.

 

[nephers]

I know I've seen them somewhere. I started reading up on this case several months ago...Let me dig around and see if I can find them for you.

 

[nephers]

Now that I've dug around, I think the photos I'm thinking of were shown in Paradise lost. Maybe someone else can help out with this. Sorry.