GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

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Ausgirl said:
rsbm for brevity

What I was actually addressing here is the idea that the girls themselves are evil, or that 'evil' (the noun) is somehow a factor. I think 'evil' is a great adjective ro describe a horrible act. But a noun - a thing it own right, in the religious sense - it makes zilch sense to me and hold no value to me in any sensible discussion of criminal behaviour. So I hope that's clear now.

Right, same here. There is no "evil" as a noun that's put into people's souls by a bad anti-Christ at birth, IMO. We're on the same page. That idea seems simplistic to me as well, and again - no proof.

Do I think all killers are mentally ill? Well, I'm not an idiot, so.. no.

Hey, I never meant to imply that, and if you thought so you wouldn't be an idiot anyway! So, sorry if that's how it came across. There are gobs of very psychologists and forensic psychologists who believe so. Lots of attorneys as well. It really comes down to personal belief, as we don't have evidence that points 100% in either direction.

It's just too tediously redundant to go into a long list of very obvious examples of other, more mundane reasons people kill. I'm pretty sure we're all aware of those. Not one of which I would put down to anyone being inherently "evil". Though some of their actions may certainly earn the adjective.

Again, we're on the same page.
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My replies in bold...
 
pjclover said:
Snipped this, respectfully.

Look, here's the issue with the word evil. In your mind, you seem to have assigned it a very simplistic meaning. Not putting words into your mouth here, just paraphrasing what you said. From my standpoint, it's something immensely complex and layered.

Mental illness is a real, rather common, malfunction of an area of the brain. There's lots of causes and lots of types, but the bottom line is that it's an actual, medical condition. Just like if someone lost part of the function of their liver, for example. It might have happened because of physical trauma to the liver, might be because of a virus or disease, might be genetic, or it might just be the way the liver was formed in utero. Mental illness is the same, from what I understand of it. It can be caused by a number of factors - biological like pre-natal damage, genetics, even a virus that's affected part of the brain, substance abuse. But then there is also this other layer of psychological and environmental causes.

I'm definitely not a person who is attempting in any way to deny or downplay the prevalence or importance of having a legitimate mental illness. I have, however, mentioned that I was concerned that because many diagnoses of mental illness are made on the basis of empirical evidence, they are somewhat subjective. If something is wrong with a liver, there are blood tests and scans and other tests to rule out some causes and confirm others. There are such tests available for some types of MI as well, but they are not commonly used outside of research studies for most diagnoses, to my knowledge.

I'm not a mental health professional, although I have some training in recognizing symptoms and experience with a variety of therapy options and behavior modifications as a result of my line of work. So, some of the above might be incorrect or off a bit, I'm open to correction if so.

Now - all of this is to say that I don't think that EVERYONE who kills has a mental illness. For sure, our prisons are rampant with people who do have either diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illnesses, and the link between the two is clear. No denying that. But, just as not everyone with a mental illness becomes a murderer (not even close), not everyone who is a murderer has a mental illness.

That's where some of us may differ. Some people think that anyone who kills clearly has something wrong (physically, chemically, etc.) with their brain that made them kill. I believe that's a bifurcation fallacy, because not killing is a societal norm, not an innate human function. In fact, the imbalance of power hypothesis of evolution states that we as humans are predispositioned for warfare. Societal factors build the resistance.

I'm getting way off topic here, so let me leave you with this question - do you believe that everyone who kills has a mental illness?

I've never seen anything that proves it to be so. If a study came out today that said every person who took a life has a diagnosed mental illness, then okay. I'd have to change my mind. I've been wrong lots of times and I don't see that stopping any time soon.

Because I don't believe all murders are mentally ill, I have to recognize that sometimes, people who have no brain-function related reason to kill choose to do so. Evil is the most recognized word that our language has for those people, in my opinion. We could call them something else, something that doesn't seem so trite, played out, or religious. I just don't know what that something else would be, you know? Societal norm breakers?

Rather than being simplistic, I think it's more complicated to look at someone without a mental illness and figure out what caused them to kill.

Just my way of looking at it. There's a possibility that both these girls have a mental illness. But, there's also a possibility they don't.
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bbm I so agree with this, and the rest of the post as well.
 
It's interesting. I am not claiming that all murderers are mentally ill I'm not all knowing and could never say something like that, and certainly not all mentally ill people kill.

However, what does a "non mentally ill" killer actually look like and how do we decipher them from the rest? Because they are not "hearing voices" or having hallucinations or delusions or a break from reality?

If someone kills because they like it or because it makes their lives easier in some way, and has zero compassion or empathy, that is absolute sociopathy, which is Anti Social Personality disorder, which is a mental illness.

For me, I guess that is where I feel the bone is being picked. And yes, I do believe their acts can be described as evil. But they are still mentally ill.
 
Elley Mae said:
bbm

OK That to me could be the avenue.

What if?
If the blonde is the one that is being spoken about as the intelligent one, what if she sees/knows that the brunette will do what ever I tell her, and what if the brunette fell for the story of slender being real by the person she admires most, and that in the name of slender and for slender we have to do this. idk But one thing I do know is that three is a crowd. I know that growing up three never played well together. jmo
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One is the psychopath and the other delusional, has a crush, jealous of the other girl, wants to impress her blonde friend. yes, I could see this.
 
This is one of my favorite academic papers that I cited in a research paper for school. This psychologist studied 10 adolescent school shooters/rampage shooters (besides Virginia Tech who was a little older) In any event, he found 3 different types of shooters by studying what was different about them instead of their similarities.

He found 3 types. Psychopathic (Anti-social like Eric Harris) Psychotic (delusions/voices hallucinations (Cho, Kip Kinkel, Dylan Klebold) and Traumatized ( had suffered abuse, neglect).

The research article is a fascinating read and gives insight into what we generally label evil (as in the noun, the person not the act) when in fact the act itself is horrible and evil. He outlines very clearly here the underlying mental illnesses, created or organic, behind the murderous rages.

Even more interesting is that within his sample of 10 rampage/school shooters 3 were found to be "traumatized", 5 were
"psychotic" (delusions/voices) and 2 were "psychopathic" (anti social)

I do believe that too much consumption of violent imagery is very detrimental to mental health, especially in adolescents whose brains are still developing and whose personalities are still forming. But I do not put "Goth" or Death Metal into that category. First person shooter games, a steady stream of glorified violence in the media, and gun fetishes come to mind.

I realize this research pertains to a very specific type of killing/killer but it is still relevant to paint a picture of adolescents who kill or become violent. The mental illnesses whether brought on obviously by home environment or inexplicably as in organic are there and are generally "missed" or somehow not dealt with properly by parents and schools.

Ausgirl, I think that you will especially find this article interesting:

http://www.schoolshooters.info/PL/Articles_files/Rampage School Shooters- A Typology.pdf
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Evil does imply a sort of non-human, or someone far beyond help, there is also some kind of religious implication, which is to me as fantastic as the idea of a Slenderman, perhaps Slenderman is a symbol of evil, but to call two 12 year old girls evil with such certainty, is something I just don't agree with, they haven't even been assessed yet.
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sorry if this has already been referenced. I once thought the idea of evil was religious as well, Mrs. G.
That is until I read scott peck's 'People of the lie.'
Has anyone here read it?

I think these girls meet Peck's definition of evil. (( I'm repeating myself from an earlier post but I feel the need to repeat~I really believe Slenderman is being used as a pre-planned excuse/cover by these 2 girls in case they got caught.)
 
The victim states that she did not want to go into the woods and was "pushed inside". This was after Geyser restrained her while Weir was supposed to attack her in the bathroom but Weir pulled Geyser aside and said she couldn't do it. Then Weir proceeds to restrain the victim so Geyser could stab her, then Geyser has 'nervous breakdown" and cannot do it. Weir was supposed to originally do the stabbing because Weir "knew all the weak spots" to stab.

Weir then chooses the woods to do the killing and tells Geyser this. Then they force her into the woods and proceed to hunt her in a game of hide and seek with Weir giving Geyser the knife and Geyser proceeding to stab her. This poor poor girl, they terrorized her, and then ruthlessly stabbed her and left her to die.

When she was asked who did this to her she replied "My best friend, MG" (Geyser) so it would appear that Geyser was the one that stabbed her while the other stood by and watched. Geyser counted the number of stabs she was inflicting in her head while doing so. This is SO disturbing.



Ugggh. My heart breaks for this victim.

And it's hard to tell at this point who may have been the leader if there even is one. They both seem equally on board and motivated to murder this poor girl. It is noteworthy that it was Weir that introduced Geyser to Creepy Pasta and Slender Man and then Geyser that suggested to Weir that they become his Proxies.

When Weir asks how they would go about doing that Geyser is the one that replies, we kill "P.J." ( The victim) and proceeds to plan the sleepover where they will kill her 3 months later.
 
Linda7NJ said:
He was so calm and clear headed!


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Yes he was, his demeanor may have been comforting to her. Idk just the shock of her friends stabbing her. Jmo

ciao
 
Linda7NJ said:
He was so calm and clear headed!
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Yes, very calm. In certain respects it sounds like he has experience with rescues; he refers to her as female, not a girl as most would do and his entire demeanor is just very professional. But he obviously has no experience with trauma victims (didn't know if he should turn her over; didn't check to see if the assailants were in the area until asked by 911 operator) so it is even more noteworthy that he was able to remain so calm. Way to go Greg.
 
Spice said:
The victim states that she did not want to go into the woods and was "pushed inside". This was after Geyser restrained her while Weir was supposed to attack her in the bathroom but Weir pulled Geyser aside and said she couldn't do it. Then Weir proceeds to restrain the victim so Geyser could stab her, then Geyser has 'nervous breakdown" and cannot do it. Weir was supposed to originally do the stabbing because Weir "knew all the weak spots" to stab.

Weir then chooses the woods to do the killing and tells Geyser this. Then they force her into the woods and proceed to hunt her in a game of hide and seek with Weir giving Geyser the knife and Geyser proceeding to stab her. This poor poor girl, they terrorized her, and then ruthlessly stabbed her and left her to die.

When she was asked who did this to her she replied "My best friend, MG" (Geyser) so it would appear that Geyser was the one that stabbed her while the other stood by and watched. Geyser counted the number of stabs she was inflicting in her head while doing so. This is SO disturbing.



Ugggh. My heart breaks for this victim.

And it's hard to tell at this point who may have been the leader if there even is one. They both seem equally on board and motivated to murder this poor girl. It is noteworthy that it was Weir that introduced Geyser to Creepy Pasta and Slender Man and then Geyser that suggested to Weir that they become his Proxies.

When Weir asks how they would go about doing that Geyser is the one that replies, we kill "P.J." ( The victim) and proceeds to plan the sleepover where they will kill her 3 months later.
Click to expand...

Also, they had planned several other ways to kill over the course of those months, and finally and decided on this plan.

It's just so devoid of humanity. Really, really disturbing.
 
bt208 said:
sorry if this has already been referenced. I once thought the idea of evil was religious as well, Mrs. G.
That is until I read scott peck's 'People of the lie.'
Has anyone here read it?

I think these girls meet Peck's definition of evil. (( I'm repeating myself from an earlier post but I feel the need to repeat~I really believe Slenderman is being used as a pre-planned excuse by these 2 girls.)
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I haven't read Peck's book but think I will pick it up. They certainly meet my (nonreligious) definition of evil. I also think there is a possibility that Slenderman is a preplanned excuse and that they many not believe he is real
.
 
I don't believe either one is EVIL at 12. I believe that these are two underdevlepoed humans who were exposed without any kind of guidance to an urban legend and they romanticized it as many girls do at that age and with no one monitoring them, they acted without any kind of normal self discipline. These kids don't know what self discipline is, They have not frame of right and wrong. I don't often lay things at the parents feet but this one, To me is squarely right there. I can not even imagine the lack of supervision these kids have had.
 
ellemo said:
I haven't read Peck's book but think I will pick it up. They certainly meet my (nonreligious) definition of evil. I also think there is a possibility that Slenderman is a preplanned excuse and that they many not believe he is real
.
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Anything is possible but they do state that the reason they were going to kill her was because some people on Creepy Pasta do not believe that Slender Man is real and that they felt the need to "prove the skeptics" wrong.

If you read the comments from posters on Creepy Pasta regarding Slender Man , they are all from people that believe he is real and not a "story" and others that understand he is not real and calling them stupid for believing he is real, or reminders that he is not real.

The more I read, the more I do not believe Slender Man was used as an excuse, but rather inexplicably, their real motivation. I'm going to reserve my judgement either way until more information is released about the relationship dynamic of these three girls.
 
I have no idea what to make of these two...


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ScarlettScarpetta said:
I don't believe either one is EVIL at 12. I believe that these are two underdevlepoed humans who were exposed without any kind of guidance to an urban legend and they romanticized it as many girls do at that age and with no one monitoring them, they acted without any kind of normal self discipline. These kids don't know what self discipline is, They have not frame of right and wrong. I don't often lay things at the parents feet but this one, To me is squarely right there. I can not even imagine the lack of supervision these kids have had.
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I was reading about just how many young girls read that stuff. Apparently, it's very popular. Yet, they are the only ones who have killed another child. Why? Why, if it has this affect on young brains, haven't there been more? I am willing to bet, that there are kids just as unmonitored, or come from abusive and really crappy situations reading that stuff.

We don't KNOW anything about how unsupervised they were. I remember when my 13 year old niece (who is very supervised) was sneaking her phone into her room at night. My parents finally realized she wasn't actually in there sleeping. Fortunately, she was doing silly things like texting friends and playing innocent games with them. Kids find ways technologically to be plugged in, even in the most strict of parenting styles. We don't know anything about how their parents raised them or monitored them.How can we put any blame on them?

Right now, we know two girls attempted to kill a "best friend." Until there is further evidence, the blame can only be on them.
 
Spice said:
Anything is possible but they do state that the reason they were going to kill her was because some people on Creepy Pasta do not believe that Slender Man is real and that they felt the need to "prove the skeptics" wrong.

If you read the comments from posters on Creepy Pasta regarding Slender Man , they are all from people that believe he is real and not a "story" and others that understand he is not real and calling them stupid for believing he is real, or reminders that he is not real.

The more I read, the more I do not believe Slender Man was used as an excuse but their real motivation. I'm going to reserve my judgement either way until more information is released about the relationship dynamic of these three girls.
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I agree that it was their motivation.. Now how did they have so much time to put into slenderman and worrying about him and not show their hand???

Where are their parents?
 
Spice said:
Anything is possible but they do state that the reason they were going to kill her was because some people on Creepy Pasta do not believe that Slender Man is real and that they felt the need to "prove the skeptics" wrong.

If you read the comments from posters on Creepy Pasta regarding Slender Man , they are all from people that believe he is real and not a "story" and others that understand he is not real and calling them stupid for believing he is real, or reminders that he is not real.

The more I read, the more I do not believe Slender Man was used as an excuse but their real motivation. I'm going to reserve my judgement either way until more information is released about the relationship dynamic of these three girls.
Click to expand...

I am very skeptical. People have been killing "in the name of..." since time began.
 
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