Identified! WI - Madison, WhtMale 18-35, 745UMWI, in chimney, fem clothing, German iron cross medallion, Sep'89 Ronnie Joe Kirk

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doyoulovemepfg said:
The fact that this UID was wearing an iron cross necklace really made me think of a potential UW student. I'm a UW alum and know that there is a really old secret society called the Iron Cross Society that I believe (don't quote me on this) wears/gives their members iron cross jewelry/pins upon joining. Someone should look into that connection as well.
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I think this is one of the strongest and most relevant information to this case and should definitely be submitted to LE as a tip to look into.

Meanwhile we here could research how long this Iron Cross Society was around for possibility that remains were in chimney for longer then estimated 2 month - 2 years. We could also search if there were any missing University of Wisconsin students in 70is or 80is or any other connection around University.
 
I’ve been off the site for awhile but this case made me come back. I have some more extensive info about the University of Wisconsin and the Madison area especially around that time period that might be relevant here - I am a third generation, more recent alum and I’ve asked my family members who were either enrolled or teaching at the university at that time about what it was like. Here are some of the more relevant info items I got.

  • At that time, people could just drop out at the end of a semester or sometimes even at midterm and the registrar’s office wouldn’t notify anyone if they didn’t come back. If this were to have happened over the summer, that could be a likely reason why this is a UID if it’s a student.
  • Madison has always been a very LGBT friendly town, but it’s had its issues with discrimination from those within the community (TERFs, bi erasure etc.) and those have been pretty ongoing. If this were a trans woman, I wouldn’t doubt that she faced discrimination even from within Madison’s LGBT community.
  • The area this UID was found in (far west side on U-Ave) is NOT a student heavy area and has only recently been a place where grad students and Epic employees have flocked to live - there’s been a lot of recent development out there. The specific business that would’ve been where the UID was is called Good N’ Loud, and it is not typically a place where students would hang out. My uncle is probably either the same age or a tad older than this UID and grew up in this part of town, and he said it was very uncommon for students to be out there because the public transport system was not as robust at that time.
  • Additionally, there’s a good possibility this UID could have been a recent high school grad from the area. Given where he was found and what schools were around at that time, I’d wager a likely guess he could’ve attended Madison West and that’s the first place I’d look if I was going through a yearbook. My family has physical copies from 1979-1986 stored somewhere, so if that’s an avenue you want to look at, I can try and find them the next time I visit.
 
doyoulovemepfg said:
I’ve been off the site for awhile but this case made me come back. I have some more extensive info about the University of Wisconsin and the Madison area especially around that time period that might be relevant here - I am a third generation, more recent alum and I’ve asked my family members who were either enrolled or teaching at the university at that time about what it was like. Here are some of the more relevant info items I got.

  • At that time, people could just drop out at the end of a semester or sometimes even at midterm and the registrar’s office wouldn’t notify anyone if they didn’t come back. If this were to have happened over the summer, that could be a likely reason why this is a UID if it’s a student.
  • Madison has always been a very LGBT friendly town, but it’s had its issues with discrimination from those within the community (TERFs, bi erasure etc.) and those have been pretty ongoing. If this were a trans woman, I wouldn’t doubt that she faced discrimination even from within Madison’s LGBT community.
  • The area this UID was found in (far west side on U-Ave) is NOT a student heavy area and has only recently been a place where grad students and Epic employees have flocked to live - there’s been a lot of recent development out there. The specific business that would’ve been where the UID was is called Good N’ Loud, and it is not typically a place where students would hang out. My uncle is probably either the same age or a tad older than this UID and grew up in this part of town, and he said it was very uncommon for students to be out there because the public transport system was not as robust at that time.
  • Additionally, there’s a good possibility this UID could have been a recent high school grad from the area. Given where he was found and what schools were around at that time, I’d wager a likely guess he could’ve attended Madison West and that’s the first place I’d look if I was going through a yearbook. My family has physical copies from 1979-1986 stored somewhere, so if that’s an avenue you want to look at, I can try and find them the next time I visit.
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Thanks for the great information, glad you popped back in!
 
doyoulovemepfg said:
I’ve been off the site for awhile but this case made me come back. I have some more extensive info about the University of Wisconsin and the Madison area especially around that time period that might be relevant here - I am a third generation, more recent alum and I’ve asked my family members who were either enrolled or teaching at the university at that time about what it was like. Here are some of the more relevant info items I got.

  • At that time, people could just drop out at the end of a semester or sometimes even at midterm and the registrar’s office wouldn’t notify anyone if they didn’t come back. If this were to have happened over the summer, that could be a likely reason why this is a UID if it’s a student.
  • Madison has always been a very LGBT friendly town, but it’s had its issues with discrimination from those within the community (TERFs, bi erasure etc.) and those have been pretty ongoing. If this were a trans woman, I wouldn’t doubt that she faced discrimination even from within Madison’s LGBT community.
  • The area this UID was found in (far west side on U-Ave) is NOT a student heavy area and has only recently been a place where grad students and Epic employees have flocked to live - there’s been a lot of recent development out there. The specific business that would’ve been where the UID was is called Good N’ Loud, and it is not typically a place where students would hang out. My uncle is probably either the same age or a tad older than this UID and grew up in this part of town, and he said it was very uncommon for students to be out there because the public transport system was not as robust at that time.
  • Additionally, there’s a good possibility this UID could have been a recent high school grad from the area. Given where he was found and what schools were around at that time, I’d wager a likely guess he could’ve attended Madison West and that’s the first place I’d look if I was going through a yearbook. My family has physical copies from 1979-1986 stored somewhere, so if that’s an avenue you want to look at, I can try and find them the next time I visit.
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If you could look through the yearbooks, that would be great.
 
WyomingSkyAngel said:
If you could look through the yearbooks, that would be great.
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I have probably pretty immediate access to 79-83 as that relative lives fairly close to me, but the other 3-4 years of yearbooks are likely overseas or in some sort of storage stateside. Let me see if I can find a reunion website or two as well, my dad mentioned that his high school graduating class was huge and that was pre-the time we are looking at.

EDIT: MMSD has a list of all the West class reunion pages. Here is a good start if we can look at the people unaccounted for. Alumni Class Web Pages | West High School
 
I grabbed the 81-82 book as that was the only one I could find today when I went over. I’m starting to look at it now and I noticed a couple of things. First off this is a HUGE high school, and it’s one of 6 high schools that were around in the city at the time - James Madison Memorial (JMM) would be the other that might be relevant to the area where the UID was found as that’s also far west side.
There are also “Missing Regents” pages that list students not pictured in the yearbook for whatever reason - and there are HUNDREDS of students listed. My dad said he was a “missing Regent” for one year because he was living overseas for the majority of a calendar year and didn’t move back into town until October or November after all the photos for his sports were taken. This is apparently pretty commonplace there given that West had a lot of UW professors and researchers’ kids and the year to year population was often pretty fluid due to sabbaticals and international appointments and kids would move abroad a lot.
I’m going to try and make a shortlist of people that might resemble our guy and then cross check them with my uncle who’s pretty close to a lot of his classmates to see if he knows whether they’re accounted for.
 
Estimated Date of Death is 2-24 months prior - (September of 1987 to July of 1989), so maybe we could zoom in on those yearbooks from The University of Wisconsin, Madison first?

The potential names you could crosscheck with initiates of the Iron Cross Society in those years. Surprisingly, there are not many. The Iron Cross Society | About Iron Cross

Not much help but you can automatically exclude anyone with blond hair and of bigger body build as John Doe was thin.

Adding reconstruction photo of John Doe for relevance. His bust was done based only on skull as he was skeletal when found so we have to remember that face of potential match could be quite off.

4f51438b4daf1.image.jpg

(click to enlarge)

Link to his NamUs profile #UP4770 - The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
 
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Just to add, there is organization called Trans Doe Task Force, which works under famous DNA Doe Project. Trans Doe specializes on identifying Unidentified who are possibly transgender or found in female cloth. So even though we are not sure at all that this John Doe was transgender, but because he was found in female cloth he would qualify.

It would be definitely worth it if someone could write them summary of this case and their org would later refer it to DNA Doe Project. Trans Doe does update sketches of their UIDs and does also media circulation on their cases. It would be great if this John Doe could be included under them and get a bit more exposure and hopefully solution to his case.

Trans Doe Task Force statement:

The Trans Doe Task Force, an independent grassroots effort, was created to help the DNA Doe Project, Inc. 501(c)(3) with their mission to use DNA and forensic genealogy to find names for the unknown dead in Jane and John Doe cold cases. TDTF will serve to help research and locate Transgender Doe cold cases and make case referrals to the DDP. TDTF will also make the public aware of the DDP’s efforts to seek out and take on cases in which the Doe is transgender, and to fundraise if needed for the necessary lab work. TDTF can also advise and educate the public, media, and law enforcement regarding the needs of and sensitive differences between Trans Doe cases and other Doe cases.

Transgender and gender variant people are disproportionately targeted in violent crimes, and have a higher suicide rate. They are more likely to be estranged from their families or end up vulnerable without adequate support. There are likely to be hundreds of transgender Does filed in cold case files as either Jane or John, which may or may not match the gender they lived under or the descriptions anyone looking for them may have given. We will seek out and find these individuals who have slipped through the cracks, so that they can have a chance of being identified by the DNA Doe Project.

Trans Doe Task Force
 
Al Ka said:
Just to add, there is organization called Trans Doe Task Force, which works under famous DNA Doe Project. Trans Doe specializes on identifying Unidentified who are possibly transgender or found in female cloth. So even though we are not sure at all that this John Doe was transgender, but because he was found in female cloth he would qualify.

It would be definitely worth it if someone could write them summary of this case and their org would later refer it to DNA Doe Project. Trans Doe does update sketches of their UIDs and does also media circulation on their cases. It would be great if this John Doe could be included under them and get a bit more exposure and hopefully solution to his case.

Trans Doe Task Force statement:

The Trans Doe Task Force, an independent grassroots effort, was created to help the DNA Doe Project, Inc. 501(c)(3) with their mission to use DNA and forensic genealogy to find names for the unknown dead in Jane and John Doe cold cases. TDTF will serve to help research and locate Transgender Doe cold cases and make case referrals to the DDP. TDTF will also make the public aware of the DDP’s efforts to seek out and take on cases in which the Doe is transgender, and to fundraise if needed for the necessary lab work. TDTF can also advise and educate the public, media, and law enforcement regarding the needs of and sensitive differences between Trans Doe cases and other Doe cases.

Transgender and gender variant people are disproportionately targeted in violent crimes, and have a higher suicide rate. They are more likely to be estranged from their families or end up vulnerable without adequate support. There are likely to be hundreds of transgender Does filed in cold case files as either Jane or John, which may or may not match the gender they lived under or the descriptions anyone looking for them may have given. We will seek out and find these individuals who have slipped through the cracks, so that they can have a chance of being identified by the DNA Doe Project.

Trans Doe Task Force
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Well, I have just found out that this John Doe is already one of their cases and as per colour of the case on their map, it has been passed to DDP (DNA Doe Project) for consideration.

Case Map - Trans Doe Task Force

It would be still good to contact Trans Doe on FB page to get an update on case, when it was submitted from them to DDP, any movement in case etc. Just basicaly to let them know that people would be interested to hear more.
 
Al Ka said:
Well, I have just found out that this John Doe is already one of their cases and as per colour of the case on their map, it has been passed to DDP (DNA Doe Project) for consideration.

Case Map - Trans Doe Task Force

It would be still good to contact Trans Doe on FB page to get an update on case, when it was submitted from them to DDP, any movement in case etc. Just basicaly to let them know that people would be interested to hear more.
Click to expand...
Thinking a Trans Doe rep. made a first post on this thread..
FL - FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88
This post..
FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88
 
I’m reading conflicting things about the chimney, it was too narrow for a burglary suspect to try to get into, or not? What business was there when the poor man remains decayed? Would the chimney prevent smells to the rest of the building? Was isotope testing done? I hope he is indentified, there is is a lot of missing men fitting his description with no photo and no info at all.
 
Walko said:
I’m reading conflicting things about the chimney, it was too narrow for a burglary suspect to try to get into, or not? What business was there when the poor man remains decayed? Would the chimney prevent smells to the rest of the building? Was isotope testing done? I hope he is indentified, there is is a lot of missing men fitting his description with no photo and no info at all.
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Hair tests for consumption of meds and drugs would also be interesting.
 
I’m back with an update on the Madison West yearbooks. After talking to family and asking about a few students who looked like this UID in the 1981 and 82 books (all were accounted for and one is even a current employee of an immediate family member, lol oops), it became very evident that if it was a local, it’d definitely be someone who was disowned by family and/or did not have friends in the area. Madison at the time was a very affluent community where everyone looked out for each other and at least knew of people’s families. Chances are pretty slim that the UID went to West in the given time period of the books I have access to, especially since we’ve now eliminated almost anyone who would’ve graduated from 81-85 that has at least one photo in the 81 and 82 books. The 86 book is the only one that I’m really curious about but it is in storage somewhere as it’s owner lives overseas now.

FWIW, I would start looking at books from surrounding areas in the 81-86 range. Some suburbs of Madison that would’ve had high schools open then would be Sun Prairie, DeForest, Middleton, Monona Grove, Stoughton, Oregon, Waunakee and McFarland. These are just the really close in suburbs in Dane County, but it wouldn’t hurt to look at eastern Iowa/Dubuque area and Rock County/the Rockford area as well.
 
carbuff said:
One of the younger Carbuffs currently lives near Middleton. When we visited recently, it looked like there was a pretty sizeable number of UW professors and staff living in the area. Was that true in the 80s?
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Yes and no - btw my knowledge of this comes directly from family who are former faculty and lived there during that time period, but I’m going to admit I don’t know everything because I was born in the 90s. I’d say a good majority of professors then would send their kids to West/Edgewood/JMM. There would still be a number of these kids at Middleton but not as substantial as the schools in the actual city. Housing in Madison in general has just become ridiculous over the last 15 or so years to the point where it’s hard to find affordable housing in the city at the quality many are looking for. I’d say there are definitely more younger staff members in the suburbs now than back in the 80s, simply because of this fact.
 
doyoulovemepfg said:
Yes and no - btw my knowledge of this comes directly from family who are former faculty and lived there during that time period, but I’m going to admit I don’t know everything because I was born in the 90s. I’d say a good majority of professors then would send their kids to West/Edgewood/JMM. There would still be a number of these kids at Middleton but not as substantial as the schools in the actual city. Housing in Madison in general has just become ridiculous over the last 15 or so years to the point where it’s hard to find affordable housing in the city at the quality many are looking for. I’d say there are definitely more younger staff members in the suburbs now than back in the 80s, simply because of this fact.
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Hm, interesting.

I've had in the back of my mind that he might be a kid who was thought to have run away, so not reported missing.
 
carbuff said:
Hm, interesting.

I've had in the back of my mind that he might be a kid who was thought to have run away, so not reported missing.
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My uncle said that even if a kid had run away, parents and neighbors would talk if there hadn’t been contact in awhile. A kid he knew in high school spent a couple weeks hitchhiking and didn’t tell his parents - there was widespread panic even though he ended up coming back. This was in the early 80s.
 
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