4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

[jepop]

There was no "DNA transfer" though. It was epithelial cells. On a use point.

100%! Same old, same old...'Touch' (ie epithelial cell) dna does not necessarily equal 'transfer' dna. Not a direct relationship. Context matters etc etc etc ad nauseum. IMO based on numerous posts by the expert who writes on these threads and follows this case (@10ofRods thank you). All moo

 

[jepop]

For any interested, there was an interesting in today’s Moscow-Pullman Daily News regarding county costs for BK’s trial. Link with snip:
Kohberger case means big budget requests

View attachment 509838

Sounds reasonable and I hope it's granted. Strikes me as being more than fair especially given what the defense is costing (from memory this was discussed in earlier thread Imo).

 

[whiterhino]

100%! Same old, same old...'Touch' (ie epithelial cell) dna does not necessarily equal 'transfer' dna. Not a direct relationship. Context matters etc etc etc ad nauseum. IMO based on numerous posts by the expert who writes on these threads and follows this case (@10ofRods thank you). All moo

We're at a point where Google isn't even necessary, all the good links and references (from Google) are already here in the threads lol!

 

[jepop]

3 Ways to Block Your Phone From Being Tracked (2022) - Privacy Pros​

Can a phone be tracked in a Faraday bag?


A Faraday bag is a cell phone signal blocking bag that prevents any kind of radio waves that your cell phone is built to receive from entering the bag, keeping your phone safe from tracking methods like those I described above. Whenever you need your phone, you can take it out of the bag and use it normally.
====================================

OK, but if you " take it out of the bag and use it normally" then you can instantly be tracked. So it isn't the perfect answer to the problem.

But he might have used one for much of that night. He certainly knew about them, being a criminology expert, etc.

I'm occams razor on the phone. Imo he switched it off and kept it off in his elantra c2.47 to 4.48am Nov 13th 2022, Jmo

 

[jepop]

Since we’re talking about forensics a lot <g>, I thought some might be interested in the latest recognition of Idaho State Police Forensic Services announced today:
News Releases – View


IDAHO STATE POLICE
ISP Forensic Services
700 S. Stratford Dr.
Meridian, ID 83642

ASCLD Honors Matthew Gamette with the 2024 Briggs J. White Award

MERIDIAN, Idaho - The American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors (ASCLD) recently announced that Matthew Gamette, Director of the Idaho State Police Forensic Services Laboratory System, has received the prestigious 2024 Briggs J. White Award. This honor recognizes Mr. Gamette's exceptional leadership in forensic science management, showcasing his unwavering commitment to excellence in the field.

Mr. Gamette has led the Idaho State Police Forensic Services Laboratory System since 2014, following his role as Quality Manager from 2008 to 2014. His career in forensic science began at the Washington State Patrol Crime Laboratory in Spokane, WA, where he made significant contributions as a biological screening, DNA, and crime scene expert.

"Matthew Gamette's receipt of the 2024 Briggs J. White Award is a testament to his exceptional dedication and leadership in the field of forensic science," said Lieutenant Colonel Kelley of the Idaho State Police. "His unwavering commitment to excellence and innovation has significantly advanced our capabilities and set a high standard for forensic science management. We are immensely proud of his accomplishments and this well-deserved recognition."

An active and dedicated member of ASCLD, Mr. Gamette has been instrumental in the organization's growth and success. He served as president in 2018 and was a member of the Board of Directors from 2013 to 2018. He currently serves on the Advocacy Committee and on the Member Resource Committee as a volunteer mentor in the ASCLD Accreditation Initiative, which helps forensic science labs around the country obtain initial ISO accreditation. In addition to his ASCLD contributions, Mr. Gamette has held prominent roles in various national forensic science organizations. Since 2015, he has served as Chair of the Consortium of Forensic Science Organizations (CFSO), advocating nationally for increased grant funding, legislative improvements, and the adoption of advanced technology to enhance forensic practices nationwide. As Chair of the National Technology Validation and Implementation Collaborative (NTVIC), he has facilitated national collaboration on forensic science validation and method development. Additionally, he has served on various forensic science standards initiatives, including being very involved with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Organization of Scientific Area Committees (OSAC), both on the Quality Infrastructure Committee and then on the Forensic Science Vocabulary Terms Task Group.

In recognition of his tireless advocacy and exceptional contributions to forensic science, Matthew Gamette embodies the highest standards of practice and managerial excellence. The Idaho State Police is proud of the ASCLD honors bestowed upon him through the 2024 Briggs J. White Award, which acknowledges his invaluable service and profound impact on crime laboratory management and leadership.

###

About the Briggs J. White Award:
When Dr. Briggs White became the Director of the FBI Laboratory, he recognized the need for closer cooperation with state and local crime laboratories. In 1973, he invited thirty laboratory directors to a meeting at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, which led to the formation of ASCLD in 1974, with Dr. White as its first Chairman. The Briggs J. White Award for Excellence through Leadership in Forensic Science Management recognizes an ASCLD member who has demonstrated outstanding managerial excellence in forensic science.

PAO

Idaho State police and MPD sound like good, very competent and professional entities. Spent too much time recently on Karen REad thread and learning about some truly awful cop culture in parts of Canton and Mass State Police. Contrary to the debacle over there, imo MPD and ISP by all appearances did an outstanding investigation and are competent and skilled professionals. Stands the prosecution case in good stead. Moo

 

[whiterhino]

I'm occams razor on the phone. Imo he switched it off and kept it off in his elantra c2.47 to 4.48am Nov 13th 2022, Jmo

FWIW Faraday bags run about $100 USD for a phone bag. I wouldn't trust something random from Amazon JMO. Even $200+ I still would not trust anything to "protect" me from being found out. MOO.

Tbh using a Faraday in this situation doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, wouldn't it draw suspicion? As opposed to leaving the phone at home? Even letting the battery drain or "charging it" to excuse the lack of phone activity etc. A Faraday would hide the signal altogether and it would end up pining where he lives anyway. Idk... MOO.

 

[jepop]

FWIW Faraday bags run about $100 USD for a phone bag. I wouldn't trust something random from Amazon JMO. Even $200+ I still would not trust anything to "protect" me from being found out. MOO.

Tbh using a Faraday in this situation doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, wouldn't it draw suspicion? As opposed to leaving the phone at home? Even letting the battery drain or "charging it" to excuse the lack of phone activity etc. A Faraday would hide the signal altogether and it would end up pining where he lives anyway. Idk... MOO.

Thanks for the info and I agree. Switching off phone also draws suspicion but I believe that's what he did. For sure if he'd been smarter he would have left it in Pullman in his appartment and switched on but we know from PCA he didn't for whatever reasons. I like the theory that he was in south east Pullman when he realised he should drop his phone back home before embarking but the ongoing police presence near steptoe appartments (unrelated hit and run) that early morning made him decide to switch off and take it along rather than pop back home. Moo

Hit-and-run, homicide interrupt WSU Family Weekend

A homicide in the Moscow-Pullman area and one hit-and-run happened within 24 hours this weekend. The Moscow Police Department is still investigating the death of four people near the University of Idaho campus, but there is no threat to the community, according to an alert sent to UI students at...

dailyevergreen.com

 

[whiterhino]

Thanks for the info and I agree. Switching off phone also draws suspicion but I believe that's what he did. For sure if he'd been smarter he would have left it in Pullman in his appartment and switched on but we know from PCA he didn't for whatever reasons. I like the theory that he was in south east Pullman when he realised he should drop his phone back home before embarking but the ongoing police presence near steptoe appartments (unrelated hit and run) that early morning made him decide to switch off and take it along rather than pop back home. Moo

Hit-and-run, homicide interrupt WSU Family Weekend

A homicide in the Moscow-Pullman area and one hit-and-run happened within 24 hours this weekend. The Moscow Police Department is still investigating the death of four people near the University of Idaho campus, but there is no threat to the community, according to an alert sent to UI students at...

dailyevergreen.com

I had no idea about the hit-and-run accident. Ty for that info!

The phone activity/lack of activity is also strange considering BK has admitted to "driving around" that night/early AM. So what's going on with his phone?

 

[Cool Cats]

I had no idea about the hit-and-run accident. Ty for that info!

The phone activity/lack of activity is also strange considering BK has admitted to "driving around" that night/early AM. So what's going on with his phone?

What a great point.

Defense says BK has phone evidence of photos of the "moon and stars." He drives around at all hours using his phone, not turning it off. ...using it.

So why was his phone turned off or in airplane mode for 1/2 the night? How do you document the great outdoors on your phone when you stop the signal?

Circumstantial evidence, jury can reasonably infer he was covering his tracks. Just like a clean sheath, cleaning it of evidence ... Covering his tracks...

2 Cents

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Right. And my point was that she COULD have opened the door to grab it and be seen by the driver. We don't know.

I agree. We also don't know who got the DD bag OR even IF anyone brought the DD bag inside that night. We also don't know who ordered the DD or if that bag in the kitchen was THE DD bag from that night. Many different scenarios are possible, but we won't know until the trial what happened.

Somewhere upthread is the report, or at least the portion that the media obtained, of what the DD driver told LE.

I would swear that it said he was interviewed and confirmed not only that he dropped off the order but that XD picked it up. It sounded to me (MOO) like he physically saw her.

Even if he didn't know her from Adam, when the news of the murders hit the next day, he would most likely have been able to look at her photo and confirm "yes that's who I saw retrieve her delivery that night". And it's also quite possible he already knew her at least by sight as a regular customer.

I personally don't think the JITB bag we saw in the photos is the bag from that order. I think it was left there from a previous order. Someone upthread commented that JITB doesn't typically write the customer's name on the bag, but I would bet that if orders for multiple people are placed for combined delivery, they might label the bags to know who gets what. Or maybe based on how many orders the driver is carrying on that trip, he might label them so he grabs the right one at each house? In any event, that's all MOOand beside the point anyway.

 

[sunspun]

Brian Kohberger and The Starry Night

Scary! BK looks so much like Adam Lanza in that cover shot.

 

[katydid23]

It would be neither unusual nor unexpected that DNA could be transferred from something BK touched by some unknown person onto the snap of the sheath.

"Four Indianapolis scientists recently questioned the reliability of the modern day high-sensitivity forensic lab technologies used by law enforcement to identify suspects via DNA. They explained that even though current technologies utilized by forensic laboratories are now reading DNA profiles from low-template and low-quality samples, they have "not been systematically investigated." The scientists published their findings in 2016, in the Journal of Forensic Science, under the heading: Could Secondary DNA Transfer Falsely Place Someone at the Scene of a Crime? Their answer was an unequivocal yes. Touch-transfer DNA "could falsely link someone to a crime" and forensic scientists relying on modern high-sensitivity equipment could "falsely conclude that DNA left on an object is a result of direct contact." Their findings revealed that it is impossible for scientists to determine whether the tiny bits of DNA came into contact with evidence from a direct source or via secondary source. And, that no matter how much they tried to sanitize their experiment, unknown third-party DNA was nonetheless able to make its way into the results, highlighting the plausibility of cross-contamination with touch-transfer DNA. "

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

www.forbes.com

I think you are ignoring the main point of my post. Yes, it is possible that touch DNA can be left innocently on an object.

But if BK left his DNA on a knife sheath in a random hardware store and sometime later a random customer bought that sheath, and then sometime after that, this customer went to King St and committed a quadruple homicide---would we expect there to be even more connections between BK and the murders?

Honestly, and be objective here---would we expect there to be any nexus between BK and the crime on King street?

Wouldn't we expect that his car would look nothing like the car leaving the crime scene? And his cell phone would not be turned off and on at all hours of the night, and in the general vicinity of the cs?

I'd expect that he'd be far away, with a solid alibi showing he had no connection. It's very hard to believe that there'd be that one very random specific coincidence, of his DNA randomly being found on the knife sheath under a dead body---but then the specific random coincidences keep stacking up, like the car speeding away was an Elantra with no front plate, just like his. Would we expect TWO random but specific coincidences like that?

 

[katydid23]

FWIW Faraday bags run about $100 USD for a phone bag. I wouldn't trust something random from Amazon JMO. Even $200+ I still would not trust anything to "protect" me from being found out. MOO.

Tbh using a Faraday in this situation doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If anything, wouldn't it draw suspicion? As opposed to leaving the phone at home? Even letting the battery drain or "charging it" to excuse the lack of phone activity etc. A Faraday would hide the signal altogether and it would end up pining where he lives anyway. Idk... MOO.

He probably wishes he had left it at home and used a burner phone to look up the directions on the back roads instead.

Also, he probably wishes he never used that sheath either...lol

 

[whiterhino]

He probably wishes he had left it at home and used a burner phone to look up the directions on the back roads instead.

Also, he probably wishes he never used that sheath either...lol

Hard to believe he ever let his phone ping anywhere near King St!

Maybe BK used the sheath bc he wore the knife close to his skin? Otherwise it seems a bit useless IMO at least in a scenario involving murder. I'd also think attaching it to a belt would be a bad idea when it came time to strip off his bloody clothing.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think you are ignoring the main point of my post. Yes, it is possible that touch DNA can be left innocently on an object.

But if BK left his DNA on a knife sheath in a random hardware store and sometime later a random customer bought that sheath, and then sometime after that, this customer went to King St and committed a quadruple homicide---would we expect there to be even more connections between BK and the murders?

Honestly, and be objective here---would we expect there to be any nexus between BK and the crime on King street?

Wouldn't we expect that his car would look nothing like the car leaving the crime scene? And his cell phone would not be turned off and on at all hours of the night, and in the general vicinity of the cs?

I'd expect that he'd be far away, with a solid alibi showing he had no connection. It's very hard to believe that there'd be that one very random specific coincidence, of his DNA randomly being found on the knife sheath under a dead body---but then the specific random coincidences keep stacking up, like the car speeding away was an Elantra with no front plate, just like his. Would we expect TWO random but specific coincidences like that?

Right.
That is not even evidence.
Not how trials work!

Juries need to be presented with evidence. Juries don't buy MAYBE. Judges don't buy MAYBE..

To say maybe it was a drug deal gone bad, maybe BK had help, maybe BK touched the knife sheath in a store and left DNA, maybe LE or some other entity set BK up...ETC......Is not enough!!!!

The defense needs to show BK was in the store, show other DNA on the sheath, get witness testimony, receipts, videos, anything to show some evidence that MAKES IT REASONABLE for this MAYBE to have happened.

And DoorDash?

No maybe about it...No "Did the driver see Xana, did he drop the food by the door, did BK order it, did Xana really order it?....ETC

No maybe because the DD driver is a WITNESS who gets a SUBPOENA and TESTIFIES to exactly what happened that night regarding the order and delivery.

Also, this saying 1/2 the population fits the witness description....Then present the jury with soneone else's DNA, someone else's phone, someone else's car.

2 Cents

 

[Cool Cats]

What Is Admissible Evidence? Not Maybe This Maybe That​

The most important factor in determining whether a piece of evidence is admissible is its relevance to the proceeding. “Relevant evidence” includes any evidence that would make the existence of a material fact “more probable or less probable than it would be without the evidence.” As a general rule, relevant evidence is admissible, while evidence deemed irrelevant is not.

Types of Evidence​

The term “evidence” broadly refers to materials relating to the subject matter of a legal proceeding, such as:

• Witness testimony;
• Written statements;
• Audio or video recordings;
• Photographs;
• Physical objects, such as clothing or a weapon allegedly used to commit an offense;
• Digital evidence, including both data and the media storing the data;
• Scientific findings, such as blood test results; and
• Demonstrative evidence, such as displays, charts, or models used to educate the judge or jury about a complicated issue.

Admissible Evidence

Admissible evidence is any document, testimony, or tangible evidence used in a court of law. Read this article to learn more about admissible evidences.

www.legalmatch.com

Admissibility of Evidence in Criminal Law Cases

Learn about common types of evidence in criminal cases, the hearsay and exclusionary rules, and the constitutional protection against self-incrimination.

www.justia.com

 

[Nila Aella]

What a great point.

Defense says BK has phone evidence of photos of the "moon and stars." He drives around at all hours using his phone, not turning it off. ...using it.

So why was his phone turned off or in airplane mode for 1/2 the night? How do you document the great outdoors on your phone when you stop the signal?

Circumstantial evidence, jury can reasonably infer he was covering his tracks. Just like a clean sheath, cleaning it of evidence ... Covering his tracks...

2 Cents

There can be an area without cell coverage.
A phone camera can be used without cell service.
Hiking and running and driving can be done without cell service.
There is no evidence the sheath was cleaned.
JMO

Hard to believe he ever let his phone ping anywhere near King St!

Maybe BK used the sheath bc he wore the knife close to his skin? Otherwise it seems a bit useless IMO at least in a scenario involving murder. I'd also think attaching it to a belt would be a bad idea when it came time to strip off his bloody clothing.

That he never went to Moscow with a phone?

The act of stripping off blood soaked clothing would take time. What about socks and shoes? Put new shoes on? Wash hands after stripping and bagging the bloody clothing and gloves? Bagging the knife without a sheath?

After looking at swabs, seats, seat cushions, door panel, headrest, seatbelt, seatbelt boot, visor, brake pedal, gas pedal, floor mats, boots - no victim DNA?

From Objection to Protective order: June 22, 2023
There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’sapartment, office, home, or vehicle.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

Noting the wrappers and used water bottles.
JMO

I think you are ignoring the main point of my post. Yes, it is possible that touch DNA can be left innocently on an object.

But if BK left his DNA on a knife sheath in a random hardware store and sometime later a random customer bought that sheath, and then sometime after that, this customer went to King St and committed a quadruple homicide---would we expect there to be even more connections between BK and the murders?

Honestly, and be objective here---would we expect there to be any nexus between BK and the crime on King street?

Wouldn't we expect that his car would look nothing like the car leaving the crime scene? And his cell phone would not be turned off and on at all hours of the night, and in the general vicinity of the cs?

I'd expect that he'd be far away, with a solid alibi showing he had no connection. It's very hard to believe that there'd be that one very random specific coincidence, of his DNA randomly being found on the knife sheath under a dead body---but then the specific random coincidences keep stacking up, like the car speeding away was an Elantra with no front plate, just like his. Would we expect TWO random but specific coincidences like that?

Elantra speeding away from the crime scene had no front plate?
The only place I have seen mention of no front plate is the Styner/95 capture of an elantra.
Please provide a link.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

There can be an area without cell coverage.
A phone camera can be used without cell service.
Hiking and running and driving can be done without cell service.
There is no evidence the sheath was cleaned.
JMO


That he never went to Moscow with a phone?

The act of stripping off blood soaked clothing would take time. What about socks and shoes? Put new shoes on? Wash hands after stripping and bagging the bloody clothing and gloves? Bagging the knife without a sheath?

After looking at swabs, seats, seat cushions, door panel, headrest, seatbelt, seatbelt boot, visor, brake pedal, gas pedal, floor mats, boots - no victim DNA?

From Objection to Protective order: June 22, 2023
There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’sapartment, office, home, or vehicle.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

View attachment 510228

Noting the wrappers and used water bottles.
JMO


Elantra speeding away from the crime scene had no front plate?
The only place I have seen mention of no front plate is the Styner/95 capture of an elantra.
Please provide a link.

JMO

IIRC, the Elantra making the 3 point turn, in order to park on the street before the murders, was shown to have no front plate...I will try and find the link...

ETA:

Shocking court documents reveal police began suspecting Kohberger less than 2 weeks after Idaho murders

Newly obtained court documents reveal that authorities investigating the University of Idaho student killings had been keeping a close eye on suspect Bryan Kohberger well before his identity was released to the public.

www.fox13seattle.com

Police said they searched for videos all around the murder scene and found several videos showing a White Elantra making three passes by the house before stopping at 4:04 a.m. One surveillance video showed the car leaving at a high rate of speed at 4:20 a.m.

On Nov. 29, Pullman Police queried white Elantras registered at Washington State University. Authorities found a 2015 model with a Pennsylvania license plate, registered to Kohberger.

The Elantra police were searching for did not appear to have a front license plate in any surveillance footage from the night of Nov. 13. According to court documents, detectives learned that displaying a front license plate is not required in the state of Pennsylvania.

 

[Nila Aella]

IIRC, the Elantra making the 3 point turn, in order to park on the street before the murders, was shown to have no front plate...I will try and find the link...

ETA:

Shocking court documents reveal police began suspecting Kohberger less than 2 weeks after Idaho murders

Newly obtained court documents reveal that authorities investigating the University of Idaho student killings had been keeping a close eye on suspect Bryan Kohberger well before his identity was released to the public.

www.fox13seattle.com

Police said they searched for videos all around the murder scene and found several videos showing a White Elantra making three passes by the house before stopping at 4:04 a.m. One surveillance video showed the car leaving at a high rate of speed at 4:20 a.m.

On Nov. 29, Pullman Police queried white Elantras registered at Washington State University. Authorities found a 2015 model with a Pennsylvania license plate, registered to Kohberger.

The Elantra police were searching for did not appear to have a front license plate in any surveillance footage from the night of Nov. 13. According to court documents, detectives learned that displaying a front license plate is not required in the state of Pennsylvania.

From the actual PCA

When Suspect Vehicle I is in front ofthe King Road Residence, it appeared to unsuccessfully attempt to park or tum around in the road. The vehicle then continued to the intersection of Queen Road and King Road where it can be seen completing a three-point tum and then driving eastbound again down Queen Road.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/122922+Affidavit+-+Exhibit+A+-+Statement+of+Brett-Payne.pdf

Which court documents state that the front license plate was missing on all of the footage the night of Nov 13?

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

There can be an area without cell coverage.
A phone camera can be used without cell service.
Hiking and running and driving can be done without cell service.
There is no evidence the sheath was cleaned.
JMO

Can be...Maybe ....Are not evidence....Trials operate on evidence....(Links upthread)

Must be proved through evidence where cell coverage is lost, show his car there, find witnesses, video. Show his phone camera photos from that night, evidence to prove the defendant's alibi. So far zero evidence. Taylor is looking for evidence.

There is circumstantial evidence the sheath was cleaned......BK's DNA

Circumstantial evidence shows it is reasonable to conclude he cleaned the sheath to hide evidence.
Circumstantial evidence shows it is reasonable to conclude he was hiding his DNA when in Pennsylvania.
Circumstantial evidence shows it is reasonable to conclude he cleaned his car.

See the pattern?

2 Cents