Found Deceased FL - Madeline Soto, 13, Missing Child Alert, 13500 blk Town Loop Blvd, Orlando, 26 Feb 2024 *arrest* #10

[Curious Me]

Regarding the Four Friends Video-- I just found out that his more recent friend Frank (I know him!) gave another interview, but it wasn't with one of our approved. As he said in the interview we heard posted here, Frank had 2-3 children of his own, and the news that SS is a raging pedophile who takes videos and photos must've really upset and worried him. MOO, I would worry if there were hidden cameras SS set up in people's houses. Sure he's capable of that. Remember, his other friends told of several instances where SS tried getting images on the sneak? ​

 

[ttjo]

I already saw that photo someplace else before. I don't know why, but he reminds me of a weasel. JMO though. Vinnie Politan on his Court TV show thought another photo of him in his younger days looked photoshopped. ​

Im Sorry to all the weasels on the world for insulting you

 

[ttjo]

dbm

 

[BeeGirl]

I just had a random thought/question: does anyone know how often Maddie stayed at grandma’s? I only ask because:

• at p.30 there is testimony where she’d stayed at Grandma’s most of the week; and
• the statement early on that Maddie didn’t know her address; and
• the implication that Maddie would sometimes go to grandma’s office after school; and
• the fact Maddie had no dedicated bedroom at the condo but only a partitioned section of the living room for her belongings; and
• The drive to school from the condo seemed a bit far, leading me to wonder if grandma’s address was used for Maddie to go to that school?

If it is the case that Maddie divided time between the condo of nightmares and grandma’s house, it is somehow even more horrific how often she was abused at the condo. It had to be every time she went.

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm over here, judging SS not on his looks, but his actions.

A paederast can look like anyone. Through all degrees of physical attractiveness.

As can very wonderful people.

I don't see the point in judging a monster's high school picture, unless there's something probative in that picture.

MOO

 

[Pruddennce]

I just had a random thought/question: does anyone know how often Maddie stayed at grandma’s? I only ask because:

• at p.30 there is testimony where she’d stayed at Grandma’s most of the week; and
• the statement early on that Maddie didn’t know her address; and
• the implication that Maddie would sometimes go to grandma’s office after school; and
• the fact Maddie had no dedicated bedroom at the condo but only a partitioned section of the living room for her belongings; and
• The drive to school from the condo seemed a bit far, leading me to wonder if grandma’s address was used for Maddie to go to that school?

If it is the case that Maddie divided time between the condo of nightmares and grandma’s house, it is somehow even more horrific how often she was abused at the condo. It had to be every time she went.

I was wondering about that too....staying at gm's...SS moved out in Dec. but according to JS' LE statement, he still 'visited'. coming from SS about Madeline staying most of the week at gm's house its difficult to discern what is true and what isnt true....did Gm confirm that?

JS couldnt even remember when he arrived the weekend of Madeline's birthday per her LE statement. she provides a different reason for him showing up....job fell through, he was going to stay the week, and was going to move back. he was hesitant to confirm when he arrived, but settled on 'Sunday evening'. his reason was JS needed help because of her new work hours.

IMO, there are still so many missing pieces. IMO, I still feel as if we do not know much about Madeline other than the friend's/school personnel interviews. and...some info provided at her memorial as to her involvement in activities and her personality. but nothing coming from her own mother, other than 'she was so happy' regarding her birthday party, and that one thing was BS according to her best friend....Madeline was disappointed regarding the party attendance AND her mother not gifting her as expected.

revealed: she was tired in school, she was not doing great academically, but some improvement was shown in relation to the timeframe when SS left the residence. she had ADHD. was supposed to be taking medication for that. she used an inhaler. she did not have her own personal private space in her own home. her mother's 'needs' came before her needs. she was subjected to SA for years. in her own home.

with family close by, its difficult for me to believe that no one intervened when her own bedroom was not available to her. even if she 'needed' to sleep with her mother, not having her own room is disturbing to me. wondering if the family knew about Madeline sleeping alone with SS or they just found out about it via these interviews.

 

[Gemmie]

Looks like a trail is upcoming. It seems soon. Am I not understanding what this is showing me?

https://courts.osceolaclerk.com/BenchmarkWeb

 

[lightofmine99]

No way that doesn't get bumped down the road again.

 

[ttjo]

revealed: she was tired in school, she was not doing great academically, but some improvement was shown in relation to the timeframe when SS left the residence. she had ADHD. was supposed to be taking medication for that. she used an inhaler. she did not have her own personal private space in her own home. her mother's 'needs' came before her needs. she was subjected to SA for years. in her own home.

with family close by, its difficult for me to believe that no one intervened when her own bedroom was not available to her. even if she 'needed' to sleep with her mother, not having her own room is disturbing to me. wondering if the family knew about Madeline sleeping alone with SS or they just found out about it via these interviews.

When I read that. I cant help but thinking how alone she must have felt, he was the hunter and she was the sitting duck.

 

[Mack the Knife]

To public knowledge, JS is first informed of the CSAM found on SS's devices during an interview on 2028-02-28 (pg. 94), and then they paused the interview and waited for Kissimmee PD to arrive, and Kissimmee PD continued the interview and showed more explicit photos that included MS's face (pg. 341).

For those of y'all who think JS was aware of the sexual abuse and/or the murder before LE informed her, when do you think she knew? What do you think her role in everything might have been? Do you think she participated in the murder or cover up? Do you think she participated beyond awareness and parroting SS's lies? What kind of evidence do you think could implicate her?

Curious what everyone's hypothesis is right now.

 

[Gemmie]

To public knowledge, JS is first informed of the CSAM found on SS's devices during an interview on 2028-02-28 (pg. 94), and then they paused the interview and waited for Kissimmee PD to arrive, and Kissimmee PD continued the interview and showed more explicit photos that included MS's face (pg. 341).

For those of y'all who think JS was aware of the sexual abuse and/or the murder before LE informed her, when do you think she knew? What do you think her role in everything might have been? Do you think she participated in the murder or cover up? Do you think she participated beyond awareness and parroting SS's lies? What kind of evidence do you think could implicate her?

Curious what everyone's hypothesis is right now.

I don't think JS "knew" knew. What I mean is she may have suspected early on from little things she witnessed between the 2 of them, but did a lot of "Nah... it couldn't be", with a whole bunch of SS's attitude (which we've seen that in full force on sustinet's reddit account), making her ashamed of herself to dare to even think that of him! The gall of her! (SS acts all hurt and indignant and she starts doubting herself). Plus, he acts SOOO sweet to her baby girl. He's like a step-father to her. Which is why I think early on LE called him Maddie's step-father. Neither of them even corrected LE! Not to mention he was calling Maddie his step daughter over on reddit! Just search his account for the word daughter. He says it in multiple posts.

I think it's likely she participated in the cover up. It sure seems that way IMO.

As for what could implicate her... any evidence LE might uncover that's as plain as the CSAM evidence was on SS's phone. Something that she wouldn't be able to talk herself out to LE. Perhaps IF SS was posting stuff on Telegram, and there's some way for LE to determine that JS has been in his account/folders, or whatever is over there, making it impossible to believe that there was no way in heck she hadn't seen stuff he's posted. That's if he's posted over there which I suspect he has. Again, IMO.

It might not even be for money on his part. He could be trading Maddie's videos for CSAM of other victims.

 

[Pruddennce]

It's very interesting that LE didn't show them the video at the church. It's an ace up the sleeve imo. I think it's a game of cat,and mouse. It's also very interesting that It's not mentioned if the person on Video was shown getting out of the vehicle iirc,and I haven't heard Jen asking where they came from ie did they walk, get dropped off there? So many red flags. MOO

yes, you are correct. JS never asked if she was seen being dropped off. but yet JS proclaimed to the media 'she was seen on the video'. as if she saw it herself. Hannah McK asked her do you have it have you seen it, the answer was NO, her sister was at the 'scene' as she called it and LE told her what they saw and then mumbles no one has seen it ( her, her family). but JS delivers that info as if it was fact it was Madeline.

 

[Pruddennce]

This should help. I give up if it doesn't. lol Not like I haven't given this the old college try!

• It takes rigor ~2 hrs to start
• It starts in the face (and mouth) first, before the rest of the body.
• So, if she was slack jawed (my words), then she is newly dead. Why? Because rigor hasn't started. See 1st bullet. Obviously this is JMO!
• And as a reminder.... Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears. Source
  • LE saw her LIMP, being moved to the trunk, ~13 hrs after she was dropped off at home by her aunt. The bullet above says it takes ~24 hrs from start to finish.

And it's not just that rigor locks your mouth how it was when you died, it tightens the muscles.

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/rigor-mortis#:~:text=Shortly%20thereafter%2C%20rigor%20mortis%20begins,stiffening%20of%20the%20masticatory%20muscles.

I'm definitely not an expert in rigor, far from it. Pretty much everything I've learned about it I've learned today. So I could be wrong with what tightening of the jaw means. I'd think it would be how my jaw is now (from a weeks old stressor, not this conversation. lol). My jaw keeps tightening (as do my shoulders and back) and none of those things are in a relaxed position. When my jaw tightens it's definitely not relaxed and no way in heck could be gap when it's torqued up like it is.

Wish we had a rigor expert in the thread.

I was with my mother in law when she passed as well as my dad. their mouth remained open. has to do with the muscles relaxing.

 

[Gemmie]

I was with my mother in law when she passed as well as my dad. their mouth remained open. has to do with the muscles relaxing.

Sorry if this is callous to ask. Are you saying you remained with them for hours after they passed and saw rigor set in?

What I had posted about was ~2 hrs after death is when rigor appears and the facial muscles (mouth, etc.) and there is a tightening of the facial muscles. That's important to figure out the timing of Maddie's death. I used to think it was the night before, but not if her mouth was agap around 7:30am, and she was seen limp being carried to the car at ~9:42. That makes me think it was shortly before SS was seen throwing her things away and her seen slumped in the car. Otherwise rigor would have already set in if he killed her the night before.

• Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears. Source
  • LE saw her LIMP, being moved to the trunk, ~13 hrs after she was dropped off at home by her aunt. The bullet above says it takes ~24 hrs from start to finish.

rigor mortis begins to appear in the muscles of the eyelids and the jaw (at the earliest, approximately 20 min postmortem); the jaw tightens due to stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic... begins,stiffening of the masticatory muscles.

 

[Anika]

To public knowledge, JS is first informed of the CSAM found on SS's devices during an interview on 2028-02-28 (pg. 94), and then they paused the interview and waited for Kissimmee PD to arrive, and Kissimmee PD continued the interview and showed more explicit photos that included MS's face (pg. 341).

For those of y'all who think JS was aware of the sexual abuse and/or the murder before LE informed her, when do you think she knew? What do you think her role in everything might have been? Do you think she participated in the murder or cover up? Do you think she participated beyond awareness and parroting SS's lies? What kind of evidence do you think could implicate her?

Curious what everyone's hypothesis is right now.

As for the cover-up of Maddie's murder, I believe there's irrefutable evidence that JS knew it had happened: the police noted in their reports as early as I think the 27th or 28th that JS referred to MS in the past-tense "several times" during a ride to the station for an interview; MS wasn't found until 3/1, and this was too soon after her disappearance to be giving up hope already. (News interviews of Chris Watts and Leticia Stauch come quickly to mind as examples of this same self-outing; edit: forgot to mention the most obvious and relevant: SS referred to MS in the past-tense from nearly the beginning.)

Notably, though, JS didn't seem to do this in news interviews from the day-of. It's hard to make your brain lie, which is why murderers so often seem to make this telling error, so I wonder if perhaps she didn't know until she and SS spent the night in the hotel, and he confessed it to her then? Perhaps he made her believe that it was somehow an accident he'd tried to cover up rather than a vicious murder; by then, she wouldn't be able to tell. I could see him easily convincing her to keep her silence by saying that she was already complicit since she'd been parroting his stories from the start. Could be that's how he got her buy-in, if this bears out.

Either way, yes, I personally think she participated in the cover-up, either initially or later on. I don't personally think she aided in the murder, however.

For the SA foreknowledge, it's not proof, but there are two things I can't get past:

1) SS felt comfortable enough with a girlfriend of less than 6 months to mention getting erect in bed with a minor. As others have pointed out, I think this was him feeling her out about whether she'd tolerate and/or express interest in that sort of behaviour. I simply cannot believe that, in 8 years, he never performed that same sort of fishing expedition with JS. Perhaps she brushed it off, but there's a difference between not knowing, and not wanting to know. (I'm also fairly sure she saw some CSAM at one point, thus his explanation that "MS created it but wasn't punished for it." And again, I think a blind eye was turned to the reality of the situation.)
2) The laundry. I won't elaborate much here, because I think the implication speaks for itself. It's possible some people who are unfamiliar won't get what I'm getting at, but I think some will.

If JS didn't know with certainty, then I think there was at the very least a marked abdication of parental responsibility in that regard. All JMO of course.

Since you asked: what are your thoughts, Mack The Knife?

 

[Mack the Knife]

Since you asked: what are your thoughts, Mack The Knife?

I feel sort of inconclusive on JS still. Since LE has not named JS has a POI or suspect or anything, and the only charges right now are against SS, the information that is public is obviously directed at the investigation of SS, so I don't feel like we know all that much about JS, really. I think I'm more skeptical of statement and body language analysis than the general consensus of WS users, so certain things that have been red flags for a lot of folks with JS ("we" dropped her off, referring to MS in the past tense, etc.), haven't bothered me as much. I'm leaning toward, right now, there is no significant evidence (known or unknown) that JS was criminally involved in the murder of MS or the attempted cover up.

I feel a bit more confident about my general theory of the case. That is built primarily on the big doc dump because that is what I read most recently and there is a lot in there, less so on the early interviews and press conferences which I haven't watched since they happened, some general absorption of what has been shared here, and not at all on other videos/reporting (like from Court TV or Gray Hughes) because I just don't like watching videos.

Pure speculation alert...
My leading hypothesis: I actually don't think SS is a pedophile. From what we know or have heard about his other preferences and habits, I think he is more of a generic deviant--I don't want to go too deep into this area because it's more just a feeling I have, but there is a path wherein people addicted to p-rnography get numb to "normal" stuff and seek things that are increasingly extreme and end up with CSAM, and I think something similar may be the case for SS. That was more than I wanted to say on that but I think it's relevant because I don't think that MS was going to age out of SS's preferences, as could happen when a pedophile's victim goes through puberty.

I don't think MS told anyone about her abuse. It's not unusual for victims of CSA to not tell anyone or to care for their abusers, which it seems like she did. I couldn't guess how she thought about it or internalized it, but to me it seems like no one in her life had any inkling. Maybe JS had an inkling, I don't know. Maybe if she didn't, she should have. I don't think MS told her, and I definitely don't think SS thought JS knew.

In this hypothesis, SS was at a lot of points lucky and a lot of points brazen. I think he intended to assault/abuse MS on the first night he was back in town, and because he hadn't been around as much in the prior few months,I d something somehow was different and went wrong--maybe MS pushed back--and he regained "control" of the situation by killing her. He then scrambled for how to cover it up, and landed on her going missing some time after he drops her off at school, which included the absurd idea of putting her body in the front seat of his car.

I don't think he ever really assembled a full plan of what he was going to do because he was probably freaking out. I don't think he's some cold-blooded killer, I think he's a coward and killed her out of cowardice. And finally, his luck ran out and his brazen moves caught up to him because he was repeatedly caught on camera moving a dead body, his story was easily falsified, and he gave police consent to search a device he kept CSAM on.

For the JS aspect of this hypothesis, her knowing or being involved just doesn't fit.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

It was said that she was slumped with her mouth ajar at 7:50am, and limp at 9:40am. While I have no experience with dead bodies, thank goodness, I wouldn't think an ajar mouth would indicate rigor. That seems like a totally relaxed position to me.

Pg 35: The female appeared to be completely slumped over and with her mouth ajar.

Pg 31: I observed a male at 0750 hours with a female wearing a green sweater in the front seat. This person appeared to be sitting upright with her head slumped over to her left side.

Pg 36: approximately 0940 hours <snip> The male then walked to the front passenger side of the vehicle, opened the door, and proceeded to carry what appeared to be a limp body to the trunk of the vehicle

What I found about rigor might help determine the time of death.

While rigor mortis develops simultaneously in all muscle tissue in the body, voluntary and involuntary, the size of the muscle determines the perceptibility of changes by the examiner. Smaller muscles over the face – around the eyes, around the mouth, etc. are the muscles where rigor mortis first appears, followed by rigor mortis of the muscles in the hands and upper limbs, and finally appears in the large muscles of the lower limbs. Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears.[11]

In the last phase of rigor mortis, the actin-myosin complex that has formed starts disintegrating due to proteolysis, resulting in the dissolution of the stiffness. This process begins in all the cells at the same time. However, just like with the appearance, this change is perceptible first in the smaller muscles of the face, followed by muscles of the upper limbs, and finally, the large muscles in the lower limbs. Rigor mortis generally disappears 36 hours after death, followed by a phase known as secondary flaccidity.

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

With all that said about the timing of rigor, and where it starts (smaller muscles of the face), and progresses to the limbs over the next few hours (so we're approximately at hour 4 now)... If her mouth was ajar at 7:50, I don't think it had set in yet, and her body limp at 9:40 (ditto)... Would one surmise she was killed shortly before SS threw her belongings into the garbage at 7:35? Or can someone come up with how it could have been done before midnight and when SS was on Telegram (I think it was 11:49am or so), which I felt is when she was killed... yet I can't make that time work if I include the stages of rigor in my theory.

So, if she was killed at 11:30 Sunday night, and SS was throwing her things away ~8 hrs later, she's be fully stiff, not limp, nor with an ajar mouth, as rigor completes between 6 to 8 hours after death and starts with the face/mouth. At least I think that's how it would be.

All MOO

Maybe she was unconscious and not dead in the first video. Would that fit within the facts we know?

 

[ttjo]

Maybe she was unconscious and not dead in the first video. Would that fit within the facts we know?

well technically it would because we only know her mouth was open from one video. if on a later video " her body was in the same position:" meant that her mouth was still open then id say no she was likely deceased. Swallowing is an antonomic nervous system function, if she was alive she'd have to close her mouth to swallow. if she was dead, she couldnt swallow. ( thats why I think they were able to determine she was already deceased. Something was evident enough for L/E to tell Jenn she was already deceased.
From what I understand even if you dont die with your mouth open, it will open after because your muscles no longer keep it shut.
your mouth will likely remain open unless someone closes it BEFORE RIGOR, sets in and your jaw muscles stiffen making it very difficult to close your mouth
The most important piece (IMO) is that her body was limp, indicating rigor hadn't stiffened her muscles yet.
I think the confusion is about thinking your mouth being open has something to do with rigor. They are separate events . Your mouth opens because when you're dead, you have no muscles working to keep it closed. . Rigor will also not close your mouth, when the muscles stiffen up , whatever position your mouth is in is how it will lock. ( typically open) I know there are all kinds of chemical reactions in the muscles ( as posted) that make them contract etc, but they dont close your mouth.
if she was stiff in that witness account, ( not limp) there' would be no telling what time her death occurred ( well except for the M.E, they'd know) . and her jaw would still be open.

its almost awkward because I know very little. my only experience is being with 2 people, one I remember her mouth being wide open, the other I dont remember (unexpected and traumatic so I have very little memory of it) I think it was slightly open.

whew.... and Im never talking about Rigor again,

 

[Curious Me]

...Curious what everyone's hypothesis is right now.

Saw this and JS came to mind.

 

[photoprose1122]

well technically it would because we only know her mouth was open from one video. if on a later video " her body was in the same position:" meant that her mouth was still open then id say no she was likely deceased. Swallowing is an antonomic nervous system function, if she was alive she'd have to close her mouth to swallow. if she was dead, she couldnt swallow. ( thats why I think they were able to determine she was already deceased. Something was evident enough for L/E to tell Jenn she was already deceased.
From what I understand even if you dont die with your mouth open, it will open after because your muscles no longer keep it shut.
your mouth will likely remain open unless someone closes it BEFORE RIGOR, sets in and your jaw muscles stiffen making it very difficult to close your mouth
The most important piece (IMO) is that her body was limp, indicating rigor hadn't stiffened her muscles yet.
I think the confusion is about thinking your mouth being open has something to do with rigor. They are separate events . Your mouth opens because when you're dead, you have no muscles working to keep it closed. . Rigor will also not close your mouth, when the muscles stiffen up , whatever position your mouth is in is how it will lock. ( typically open) I know there are all kinds of chemical reactions in the muscles ( as posted) that make them contract etc, but they dont close your mouth.
if she was stiff in that witness account, ( not limp) there' would be no telling what time her death occurred ( well except for the M.E, they'd know) . and her jaw would still be open.

its almost awkward because I know very little. my only experience is being with 2 people, one I remember her mouth being wide open, the other I dont remember (unexpected and traumatic so I have very little memory of it) I think it was slightly open.

whew.... and Im never talking about Rigor again,

I agree with your thinking here and am pretty sure this is correct. Rigor would not close your mouth, regardless of the jaw muscles tightening and what not. Rigor locks your body into whatever position it is currently in, which is why they’ve had some truly bizarre cases of bodies being found in seemingly impossible positions. If she were slack-jawed and no one closed her mouth and kept it closed, as someone mentioned upthread being suggested in body prep, her jaw would be locked in that position when rigor set in. Regardless, her being caught on video slumped over still suggests that she was recently killed, as well as SS being seen moving her limp body. That would suggest rigor had not set in yet. She was most likely killed that morning, IMO. But as has been said, her mouth being open would not be an indicator of rigor/absence of rigor.