PA - Assassination attempt, shooting injures former POTUS Donald Trump, leaves 1 spectator deceased two in critical condition, 13 July 2024 #3

[RANCH]

Good faithed questions: should they have just forcibly rammed his head back down when he repeatedly stood up in defiance? Does Trump have zero responsibility for potentially putting himself at further risk by deliberately going against their actions and standing up to face the crowd in order to do his gestures?

The shooting never should have happened, yes. But he also defied the protocol during such a situation and put himself, and perhaps those agents, at further risk. That is on him, not them.

For one they should have had larger agents to block him from further gunshots and no he is not responsible in anyway for protecting himself after getting shot. That's obviously the job of the Secret Service and they failed big time.

The idea that a shooting victim needs to follow some kind of protocol is simply absurd. JMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

It is sounding more and more as though the target would have been whoever was geographically closer (more convenient) to the shooter at the time he decided to stage his own final goodbye.

imo

I agree, though not just anybody - a big name. He didn't want to be just another shooter but someone who shot a very prominent person. I think Trump was targeted not because of politics specifically but because he's the biggest name in politics, and the shooting would be part of history, not just that day's news.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

Good faithed questions: should they have just forcibly rammed his head back down when he repeatedly stood up in defiance? Does Trump have zero responsibility for potentially putting himself at further risk by deliberately going against their actions and standing up to face the crowd in order to do his gestures?

The shooting never should have happened, yes. But he also defied the protocol during such a situation and put himself, and perhaps those agents, at further risk. That is on him, not them.

I think if he were the current head of state and not a former head/current candidate, the agents might be more forceful in protecting him.
jmo

 

[Fabled Automatic]

For one they should have had larger agents to block him from further gunshots and no he is not responsible in anyway for protecting himself after getting shot. That's obviously the job of the Secret Service and they failed big time.

The idea that a shooting victim needs to follow some kind of protocol is simply absurd. JMO.

It's just a matter of survival instinct and personal accountability, no? If there's a shooter about, one would generally duck for cover, regardless of whether or not they have a team to protect them. Not stand up uncovered.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Trust me, plenty of former SS and State Department guys are chiming in, their video interviews just aren’t linkable.

Mostly legit criticisms with a few the SS did everything right
A tid-bit that's interesting is that Trump is close to his SS and they're too used to bowing to his wishes.
The critics hit on all the crucial points where they put/left Trump's life in danger of a 2nd shooter.
The "shooter down, all good" seconds after shots were fired at Trump should never been taken as an all clear by Trump's SS detail because they had to know the area had not yet been searched and cleared.

Secret Service criticized for how long it took to get Trump offstage

Some former law enforcement officials questioned why the agents allowed the injured former president to put on his shoes and pump his fist in the air.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Good faithed questions: should they have just forcibly rammed his head back down when he repeatedly stood up in defiance? Does Trump have zero responsibility for potentially putting himself at further risk by deliberately going against their actions and standing up to face the crowd in order to do his gestures?

The shooting never should have happened, yes. But he also defied the protocol during such a situation and put himself, and perhaps those agents, at further risk. That is on him, not them.

BBM:

I'm still going with they should have kept him down so are you saying that that is what SS wanted to do and it was Trump who insisted on standing and playing to the crowd etc?

 

[Falcon500]

Folks most of you are second guessing a scenario that you you’ve never been part of and you never will.

First of all the Secret Service cannot produce a train full of agents within a weeks notice. Neither can the local PD. Trump was not the president so he wasn’t entitled to the numbers of agents that a sitting president does.

During the 1980’s Bill Clinton decided to play golf at Congressional Country Club. There was no advance notice to my PD. As a detective I had no real reason to be there but since I was allowed to cover the entire county I showed up at the country club and was elected to drive the golf court. Mr Clinton engaged me in pleasant conversation and remarked that my driving was easier on his back than his SS agents.

Since my schedule and his overlapped he played on Sunday when I was working thus we traded being the cart driver. There was only two other agents that I cound see and they covered the wood line that circled the club.

I later learned that the real purpose of me being there was to have a county police radio being presents vs. a SS radio that wasn’t capable of communicating with the county radios.

 

[RANCH]

It's just a matter of survival instinct and personal accountability, no? If there's a shooter about, one would generally duck for cover, regardless of whether or not they have a team to protect them. Not stand up uncovered.

The first thing President Trump did was to duck. And he did it without anyone's help.

I really don't understand the idea that he was solely responsible for safely removing himself from the stage and getting into the SUV. And the idea the Secret Service was powerless to do their job properly because a 78 year old man who was just shot didn't follow some protocol.

<modsnip: Rude>

 

[Betty P]

Did you read this when I posted it not long ago?

Secret Service criticized for how long it took to get Trump offstage

Some former law enforcement officials questioned why the agents allowed the injured former president to put on his shoes and pump his fist in the air.

www.nbcnews.com

Secret Service criticized for how long it took to get Trump offstage

Some former law enforcement officials questioned why the agents allowed the injured former president to put on his shoes and pump his fist in the air.

www.nbcnews.com

Yes, I did and I'm waiting for expert opinion. I noted the things I noticed the first time watching with audio on. The agents were struggling to get Trump off the stage safely because he was resisting at first and again later. I'll wait for the final report.

There's more I could say about outdoor political events and security risks, but will save it for another time. I've worked many of these events as a volunteer or working with other candidates and elected officials. Outdoor events have always been dangerous for politicians, but the risk has increased exponentially in the last decade. Many dangerous incidents have occurred that put innocent people at risk but, because they were stopped in time, they never made the news.

I hope this incident puts an end to outdoor campaign events. It's long overdue in this very dangerous country we now live in. It's much safer to hold them indoors.

 

[fred&edna]

This should not have happened. It doesn't matter if DJT is 78 or 47, it doesn't matter if he's short, tall, average height. It doesn't matter if he was outside nor inside. It might have been "easier" to protect him under a myriad of different circumstances but that simply isn't the case. Forget DJT.... one man is dead, two others seriously wounded so let's blame DJT's age, agility, height and a PA LE team for this? Really?

Someone should have let FDR know how dangerous it was for him to be in a wheelchair during his presidency. (Yes, yes, I know DJT is only a former US president).

jmo

 

[Betty P]

The first thing President Trump did was to duck. And he did it without anyone's help.

I really don't understand the idea that he was solely responsible for safely removing himself from the stage and getting into the SUV. And the idea the Secret Service was powerless to do their job properly because a 78 year old man who was just shot didn't follow some protocol.

<modsnip: Rude>

He wasn't solely responsible for getting himself off the stage, the SS was. He was required to follow their orders, get down so they could cover him and move when they tell him. I imagine that's a little hard for people who have served as POTUS. They're used to giving orders not following them. I watched the replay of the event but listened to the audio of it, too. That helps.

People perceive things differently. I'll wait until the final report.

 

[GatorFL]

Folks most of you are second guessing a scenario that you you’ve never been part of and you never will.

First of all the Secret Service cannot produce a train full of agents within a weeks notice. Neither can the local PD. Trump was not the president so he wasn’t entitled to the numbers of agents that a sitting president does.

During the 1980’s Bill Clinton decided to play golf at Congressional Country Club. There was no advance notice to my PD. As a detective I had no real reason to be there but since I was allowed to cover the entire county I showed up at the country club and was elected to drive the golf court. Mr Clinton engaged me in pleasant conversation and remarked that my driving was easier on his back than his SS agents.

Since my schedule and his overlapped he played on Sunday when I was working thus we traded being the cart driver. There was only two other agents that I cound see and they covered the wood line that circled the club.

I later learned that the real purpose of me being there was to have a county police radio being presents vs. a SS radio that wasn’t capable of communicating with the county radios.

You mean the 90's? Clinton wasn't elected til 92.

 

[Fabled Automatic]

The first thing President Trump did was to duck. And he did it without anyone's help.

I really don't understand the idea that he was solely responsible for safely removing himself from the stage and getting into the SUV. And the idea the Secret Service was powerless to do their job properly because a 78 year old man who was just shot didn't follow some protocol.

An utterly ridiculous idea. JMO.

I don't understand it either, because it was never suggested anywhere that he was solely responsible for removing himself from the situation.

Here's what I asked in response to the suggestion the SS did him a disservice:

Good faithed questions: should they have just forcibly rammed his head back down when he repeatedly stood up in defiance? Does Trump have zero responsibility for potentially putting himself at further risk by deliberately going against their actions and standing up to face the crowd in order to do his gestures?

The shooting never should have happened, yes. But he also defied the protocol during such a situation and put himself, and perhaps those agents, at further risk. That is on him, not them.

He ducked, they dove and waited. Once the call was made the shooter was neutralized, they went about moving him to safety. My point is, at that point in time, he chose to rise above them and gesture at the audience, rather than follow what I'm sure he knew was protocol.

Now, perhaps he felt safe enough hearing the threat was neutralized, and that's his choice. But, blaming the SS entirely for not shoving his head back down, or forcibly disallowing him to physically rise up takes SOME (not all) of the onus of safety, and puts it into Trump's hands. He chose to do that. Certainly the SS isn't going to ram his head back down. Certainly a person, who feels threatened by a shooter, has the instinct to stay under cover at the very least until the threat is stopped and has some responsibility if they chose to do otherwise. SS or no SS.

 

[RANCH]

He wasn't solely responsible for getting himself off the stage, the SS was. He was required to follow their orders, get down so they could cover him and move when they tell him. I imangine that's a little hard for people who have served as POTUS. They're used to giving orders not following them. I watched the replay of the event but listened to the audio of it, too. That helps.

Why would a shooting victim be required to do anything for their own protection?

If those agents can't control a situation like this they need to transferred to different duties. JMO.

 

[Betty P]

Why would a shooting victim be required to do anything for their own protection?

If those agents can't control a situation like this they need to transferred to different duties. JMO.

He can do whatever he wants. If he wants to be protected he needs to duck down and let them cover him. If he was not able to move on his own they would have carried him.

 

[Fabled Automatic]

BBM:

I'm still going with they should have kept him down so are you saying that that is what SS wanted to do and it was Trump who insisted on standing and playing to the crowd etc?

The videos of the incident, of which there are many, mostly speak for themselves, audio included.

 

[RANCH]

I don't understand it either, because it was never suggested anywhere that he was solely responsible for removing himself from the situation.

Here's what I asked in response to the suggestion the SS did him a disservice:

He ducked, they dove and waited. Once the call was made the shooter was neutralized, they went about moving him to safety. My point is, at that point in time, he chose to rise above them and gesture at the audience, rather than follow what I'm sure he knew was protocol.

Now, perhaps he felt safe enough hearing the threat was neutralized, and that's his choice. But, blaming the SS entirely for not shoving his head back down, or forcibly disallowing him to physically rise up takes SOME (not all) of the onus of safety, and puts it into Trump's hands. He chose to do that. Certainly the SS isn't going to ram his head back down. Certainly a person, who feels threatened by a shooter, has the instinct to stay under cover at the very least until the threat is stopped. SS or no SS.

Why couldn't the Secret Service take control and physically force President Trump to take a safer posture? They outnumbered him and are much younger.

Nope. These excuses for a Secret Service failure just doesn't cut it with me. JMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Consider also that the man is 78 years old. He's in good shape for 78, but you just don't bend like you did when you were 20 when you are 78 .I just cannot see how he could have "stayed down" and still made it to the SUV. He was tackled to the hard stage by security agents. That had to hurt, especially if he went down knees first. IMO, no one could have expected him to duck walk to the SUV, and the man is tall. I heard the SS team say "Shooter Down", then in the group protecting him someone said "Ready to get up?" and they all got up, Trump asking for his shoes (because I certainly wouldn't want to be barefoot with who knows what on the ground, thanks, so I get that), and Trump doing Trump. Standing tall, raising his fist, he is still strong. Then I heard something like "Time to go" or "Let's go" and they all started moving off stage. Oddly, it all made sense to me and I am just a bystander, not a fan. That they all heard "shooter down" and thought they were mostly safe so they stood up, but thought they should get to the armored SUV.

SS isn't there for an ex-president who's 78 to make their situation comfortable and happy when his life is in danger after shots were fired at him.
The "shooter down" relates to one shooter and SS should be the first to know that in any mass shooting event after a shooter is down the next question that urgently needs answering is there more than one shooter and that Trump's SS detail did not know nor was that established when they left Trump open to be shot again during their attempts of existing him.
And that is why I'm still going with they should have kept him down and covered even if that meant another one or 2 agents joining the ones who were covering him until the area was searched and cleared.

Former President Donald Trump covered by Secret Service agents at his Butler, Pa., campaign rally on Saturday. PHOTO: EVAN VUCCI/AP

 

[RANCH]

He can do whatever he wants. If he wants to be protected he needs to duck down and let them cover him. If he was not able to move on his own they would have carried him.

He did duck down all on his own and let them cover him.

JMO.

 

[ldlager]

SS isn't there for an ex-president who's 78 to make their situation comfortable and happy when his life is in danger after shots were fired at him.
The "shooter down" relates to one shooter and SS should be the first to know that in any mass shooting event after a shooter is down the next question that urgently needs answering is there more than one shooter and that Trump's SS detail did not know nor was that established when they left Trump open to be shot again during their attempts of existing him.
And that is why I'm still going with they should have kept him down and covered even if that meant another one or 2 agents joining the ones who were covering him until the area was searched and cleared.

Former President Donald Trump covered by Secret Service agents at his Butler, Pa., campaign rally on Saturday. PHOTO: EVAN VUCCI/AP

Unless of course the SS somehow KNEW, maybe in advance, there was only one shooter!