Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[katydid23]

Mini-opening statement by defense? This should be interesting.

Four Franks Memos. I have lost count of their motions.
This defense doesn’t know the meaning of “mini” anything.

jmo

And what could they possibly say to all of the potential jurors that
1] the DA will agree with
2]and the potential jurors even need to be told about before even being cleared as a juror?

 

[grannygates]

What is your interpretation of “The records from AT&T show that there has been no contact with the tower since then.”?

Does that mean there could have been contact after that point that NM just omitted? Does that mean they stopped for a while and started back up? Or does that mean there were no valid live pings after a certain point in time, regardless of what times the defense may claim next?

I don’t even really see how that language is unclear or debatable.

In reviewing the fourth franks motion, I believe part of the reason NM never mentioned a specific time is because the defense apparently doesn’t even have their own narrative straight and are claiming the super revelatory ping was at two different times. One at 4:33 (which you keep citing), and one at 5:39:

Pursuant to the information which the prosecution disclosed to Mr. Allen’s counsel, the first ping on February 14, 2017 was sent to L.G.’s phone at 5:39:41 a.m.

Saying the phone was in contact with the tower at no point after 5:44pm on 7/13 rebuts both of these claims, as well as future claims. Interestingly, the defense included zero times in their response. Coincidence?

JMO

Again, I don’t want to have to come to my own conclusion. I expect the response to include what the 4:33am ping in question meant and why it was being misunderstood by the defense. IMO That seems like the most basic, simplest and straightforward way to refute the defenses argument if they are actually misunderstanding the ping data. MOO

I think we know and can accept eachothers position on this by now.

MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

"I don’t see the harm in being thorough in pre-trial to help the trial go smoothly."


I don't think the prosecution cares whether we know all of the missing facts and data right now. I don't see how that would 'help the trial go smoothly.'

Its doesn't even matter what any of us here know or think about the upcoming evidence. It is totally irrelevant.

The ONLY thing that matters is that the jury is given a chance to hear the case in chief and then the rebuttal case by the defense. Almost none of the so called 'evidence' in the FM's will have any kind of impact upon the actual trial.

The DA does not care whether we understand all of the upcoming details of his case. Unlike the DT, who seem to be purposely trying to flood the public with as much speculative data as possible, the DA wants to save it for the jury. IMO

Amen !!!!

Plus the DA and prosecutors are ABIDING BY THE GAG ORDER !!!

Thank you for trying to explain this ... again

 

[MiniMoo]

Killers?

Could be more than one, but personally I think it was just one person.

MOO

 

[m00c0w]

For those interested in some light reading regarding phone location information, here’s a decent journal article from Syracuse Law Review. It’s from 2022, so fairly up to date.

https://lawreview.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Quinteros-Macro-Draft-FIXED8.pdf

Notably, around page 377 (digital page 11) they start talking about NELOS, a proprietary AT&T technology that is used to locate phones when GPS and triangulation methods are unavailable. Based on the descriptions given by NM, I believe it’s likely that NELOS was used to ping LG’s phone.



The paper goes into some good detail regarding the unknowns and pitfalls with NELOS, as well as gives some background and basic info on the other geolocation methods.

 

[grannygates]

"I don’t see the harm in being thorough in pre-trial to help the trial go smoothly."


I don't think the prosecution cares whether we know all of the missing facts and data right now. I don't see how that would 'help the trial go smoothly.'

Its doesn't even matter what any of us here know or think about the upcoming evidence. It is totally irrelevant.

The ONLY thing that matters is that the jury is given a chance to hear the case in chief and then the rebuttal case by the defense. Almost none of the so called 'evidence' in the FM's will have any kind of impact upon the actual trial.

The DA does not care whether we understand all of the upcoming details of his case. Unlike the DT, who seem to be purposely trying to flood the public with as much speculative data as possible, the DA wants to save it for the jury. IMO

I’m not sure how it continues to be misunderstood that me sharing my opinion on wording in court filings means that I think the lawyers should be announcing anything to the public?

We all know there’s a gag order. It’s brought up every.single.day. It doesn’t mean the attorneys are restricted from doing their normal everyday pre-trial business. It doesn’t mean they can’t prepare for the trial.

<modsnip>

MOO

 

[m00c0w]

Again, I don’t want to have to come to my own conclusion. I expect the response to include what the 4:33am ping in question meant and why it was being misunderstood by the defense. IMO That seems like the most basic, simplest and straightforward way to refute the defenses argument if they are actually misunderstanding the ping data. MOO

I think we know and can accept eachothers position on this by now.

MOO

<modsnip> No pings after 5:44pm on 2/13 means no pings after 5:44pm on 2/13. You’re not having to guess as to whether they actually mean there may have also been pings at 4:33am on 2/14, because that’s after 5:44pm on 2/13 and there were no pings after 5:44pm on 2/13. <modsnip>

I’m also not sure how we reconcile which “first ping” on 2/14 the defense is even talking about when they give two completely different times at two different points in the filing.

JMO

 

[MollyDDD]

Given how many holes this investigation had, what conflicting and confusing information the public was fed, the sheer size of the reward sum, they’d better have airtight evidence, including the DNA. As to the fact that multitude confessions prove anything, I disagree with it from all my heart. This strategy is not fit for any democracy. To add, there is a case discussed here, that of Samantha Woll, whose ex-bf confessed of fatally stabbing her, but as it seems now, it was a totally different man. We don’t know what makes innocent people make self-incriminating utterances, but judging by Woll’s case, extreme anxiety and mental illness are to be blamed.

I’ve been following this case since day one and after all of these years, the ups and downs, the accusations, the rumors, the incompetence, the suspects, investigators, photos, etc., I can honestly say, imo, there’s no way a jury will be unanimous in their verdict.

 

[m00c0w]

One thing I find kind of crazy and very interesting here is that I could probably be swayed into having some doubt as to RA’s guilt if the defense took the time to flesh out inconsistencies in the witness accounts, discussed actual flaws with the physical evidence and its collection (“we haven’t seen photos of it being taken out of the ground” isn’t quite the same as “the round is inconsistent with other ammunition found at RA’s house” or “the round was clearly degraded and had been at the crime scene since well before the crimes took place.”), or even provided the slimmest alibi for RA beyond “yeah, he was there but he left earlier and idk did stuff”.

<modsnip - personalizing>

That defense just doesn’t quite sit right with me. I hope they figure out something a little more reasonable by the time the trial comes around. I don’t think the jury will suspend disbelief that much, either.

All JMO

 

[katydid23]

Haven’t read the doc but doesn’t that all suggest an estimated time of death by Goldman can’t be right if the phone and the kids left the area and then returned later?

Goldman doesn't have to worry about that because neither the phone or the girls left the area and then returned.

How could that have even been accomplished? By 3:30 pm on the 13th, Libby's father was already in the area, calling the phone and calling out their names. He also asked everyone he saw to help him search, and immediately there were a dozen people calling out to them and spreading out to find them. Soon there were dozens of first responders, and locals and friends and family walking all around, and many stayed throughout the entire night.

Why and how would a killer or killers return to that area, with all those police vehicles and searchers, calling out loudly for the girls? Do we seriously believe anyone would walk into that heavily watched area carrying two dead bodies, after they had already escaped the area safely already? Who would do that?

Does anyone think the DT is seriously going to try and convince the jury that, in spite of evidence to the contrary, someone killed the girls and then carried them BACK into the area that was actively being searched? Forensics blood evidence says that the girls were killed right where they lay. I am pretty sure there is other evidence showing that as well, like footprints, etc.

And what about the pesky Odinists? Were they the ones who took the girls and returned them? None of the searchers noticed a clan of bearded woodsmen carrying 2 bodies through the brush?

 

[MollyDDD]

#Justice4Abby&Libby

View attachment 519900
Picture by WRTV

God it’s hard to look at that. Those young, beautiful, innocent girls.
It’s just unimaginable.

 

[m00c0w]

Goldman doesn't have to worry about that because neither the phone or the girls left the area and then returned.

How could that have even been accomplished? By 3:30 pm on the 13th, Libby's father was already in the area, calling the phone and calling out their names. He also asked everyone he saw to help him search, and immediately there were a dozen people calling out to them and spreading out to find them. Soon there were dozens of first responders, and locals and friends and family walking all around, and many stayed throughout the entire night.

Why and how would a killer or killers return to that area, with all those police vehicles and searchers, calling out loudly for the girls? Do we seriously believe anyone would walk into that heavily watched area carrying two dead bodies, after they had already escaped the area safely already? Who would do that?

Does anyone think the DT is seriously going to try and convince the jury that, in spite of evidence to the contrary, someone killed the girls and then carried them BACK into the area that was actively being searched? Forensics blood evidence says that the girls were killed right where they lay. I am pretty sure there is other evidence showing that as well, like footprints, etc.

And what about the pesky Odinists? Were they the ones who took the girls and returned them? None of the searchers noticed a clan of bearded woodsmen carrying 2 bodies through the brush?

It’s all a final desperate last attempt to get the Franks hearing. I don’t think they actually believe any of it, they just need to manufacture a way to get the search warrant thrown out.

Which again leads me to wonder what could be so incredible at the search that they’re having to go for broke trying to get it suppressed…

 

[grannygates]

Well, I’m hitched because I re-read the 4th Franks and now I understand where Nick is getting this quote re:no contact with the tower past 5:44pm. It’s from the communication between Holeman and Blocher, which occurred at 1:00am on Feb14.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[MollyDDD]

Goldman doesn't have to worry about that because neither the phone or the girls left the area and then returned.

How could that have even been accomplished? By 3:30 pm on the 13th, Libby's father was already in the area, calling the phone and calling out their names. He also asked everyone he saw to help him search, and immediately there were a dozen people calling out to them and spreading out to find them. Soon there were dozens of first responders, and locals and friends and family walking all around, and many stayed throughout the entire night.

Why and how would a killer or killers return to that area, with all those police vehicles and searchers, calling out loudly for the girls? Do we seriously believe anyone would walk into that heavily watched area carrying two dead bodies, after they had already escaped the area safely already? Who would do that?

Does anyone think the DT is seriously going to try and convince the jury that, in spite of evidence to the contrary, someone killed the girls and then carried them BACK into the area that was actively being searched? Forensics blood evidence says that the girls were killed right where they lay. I am pretty sure there is other evidence showing that as well, like footprints, etc.

And what about the pesky Odinists? Were they the ones who took the girls and returned them? None of the searchers noticed a clan of bearded woodsmen carrying 2 bodies through the brush?

“bearded woodsmen”…reminds me of Snow White.

 

[katydid23]

I’ve been following this case since day one and after all of these years, the ups and downs, the accusations, the rumors, the incompetence, the suspects, investigators, photos, etc., I can honestly say, imo, there’s no way a jury will be unanimous in their verdict.

But that is the beauty of an actual trial----random accusations, rumours, irrelevant suspects will be suppressed. The jury will only be shown and told about valid, relevant evidence from verified experts and key eye witnesses.

I have faith that they will come to a unanimous decision once they have the chance to deliberate. IMO

 

[m00c0w]

Well, I’m hitched because I re-read the 4th Franks and now I understand where Nick is getting this quote re:no contact with the tower past 5:44pm. It’s from the communication between Holeman and Blocher, which occurred at 1:00am on Feb14.

View attachment 520138

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

That doesn’t make his statement untruthful if that was, in fact, the last time the phone contacted a tower.

NM makes it extremely clear that this is the case. For example:


Do you believe that NM is outright lying when he states that the pings collected from AT&T were all historical? Either they are labeled as historical or they aren’t.

Back to my own burning question: was the “first ping” on 2/14 at 4:33 or 5:39?

JMO

 

[grannygates]

Goldman doesn't have to worry about that because neither the phone or the girls left the area and then returned.

How could that have even been accomplished? By 3:30 pm on the 13th, Libby's father was already in the area, calling the phone and calling out their names. He also asked everyone he saw to help him search, and immediately there were a dozen people calling out to them and spreading out to find them. Soon there were dozens of first responders, and locals and friends and family walking all around, and many stayed throughout the entire night.

Why and how would a killer or killers return to that area, with all those police vehicles and searchers, calling out loudly for the girls? Do we seriously believe anyone would walk into that heavily watched area carrying two dead bodies, after they had already escaped the area safely already? Who would do that?

Does anyone think the DT is seriously going to try and convince the jury that, in spite of evidence to the contrary, someone killed the girls and then carried them BACK into the area that was actively being searched? Forensics blood evidence says that the girls were killed right where they lay. I am pretty sure there is other evidence showing that as well, like footprints, etc.

And what about the pesky Odinists? Were they the ones who took the girls and returned them? None of the searchers noticed a clan of bearded woodsmen carrying 2 bodies through the brush?

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

 

[MollyDDD]

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

You are correct. <modsnip: > Other people continued searching in the dark, contaminating the crime scene, possibly including the killer/killers.

 

[somequestions]

RA gave DD the phone IMEI number back in 2017. It hasn't been stated what the CAST data is yet in entirety, I'm sure that will come out at trial with dueling experts.

I don't see RA giving up the actual phone (if any) he was using that day to LE, but it will hard to explain why it wasn't included in the numbers from a tower dump. It is possible to track a phone’s location using the IMEI number, as long as the device is connected to a network. If was checking stock quotes like he said, it would have had to been connected.

They did recover 10-12 phones, including burners from his home during the Search so who knows what they might find.

JMO

The part that stood out to me about Richard Allen's interrogations in October 2022 was that he said he was willing to voluntarily give LE his phone(his current one?) until he felt during that interrogation that they were accusing him of the Delphi murders.

If Richard Allen really is bridge guy, he sure wanted to do whatever he could to help the police prove the case, without realizing this was a possibility.

 

[Charlot123]

I’ve been following this case since day one and after all of these years, the ups and downs, the accusations, the rumors, the incompetence, the suspects, investigators, photos, etc., I can honestly say, imo, there’s no way a jury will be unanimous in their verdict.

The ISP work should be called “Much Ado About Nothing.”

This doesn’t refer, of course, to the case itself, the tragic victims or their tirelessly advocating for justice relatives. Just to the fact that we heard so much and LE had so little.

Unspent is any cartridge not yet actually fired. The particular cartridge found at the crime scene had been loaded into a magazine, chambered, and ejected still unfired. This can be identified from certain dents and scratches.

This ejection of a fireable round from an already loaded and cocked weapon was intended to menace the panicking victims into compliance. The killer probably was unable to follow the flight to the ground because he was watching the girls for signs of bolting. Then he forgot all about it anyway. There was a lot going on.

The actual murder weapon (the knife) would have been in hiding right up until killing time.

MOO

So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job? I know there was a Murdaugh case with the discussion about the unspent bullets, but I didn’t follow it at all. I would assume that criminology of unspent cartridge is complicated, isn’t it? But to eject an unspent cartridge, technically, should be an easy process?

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.