Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[grannygates]

Goldman doesn't have to worry about that because neither the phone or the girls left the area and then returned.

How could that have even been accomplished? By 3:30 pm on the 13th, Libby's father was already in the area, calling the phone and calling out their names. He also asked everyone he saw to help him search, and immediately there were a dozen people calling out to them and spreading out to find them. Soon there were dozens of first responders, and locals and friends and family walking all around, and many stayed throughout the entire night.

Why and how would a killer or killers return to that area, with all those police vehicles and searchers, calling out loudly for the girls? Do we seriously believe anyone would walk into that heavily watched area carrying two dead bodies, after they had already escaped the area safely already? Who would do that?

Does anyone think the DT is seriously going to try and convince the jury that, in spite of evidence to the contrary, someone killed the girls and then carried them BACK into the area that was actively being searched? Forensics blood evidence says that the girls were killed right where they lay. I am pretty sure there is other evidence showing that as well, like footprints, etc.

And what about the pesky Odinists? Were they the ones who took the girls and returned them? None of the searchers noticed a clan of bearded woodsmen carrying 2 bodies through the brush?

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

 

[MollyDDD]

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

You are correct. The Keystone Cops closed up shop and went home until the next day. Other people continued searching in the dark, contaminating the crime scene, possibly including the killer/killers.

 

[somequestions]

RA gave DD the phone IMEI number back in 2017. It hasn't been stated what the CAST data is yet in entirety, I'm sure that will come out at trial with dueling experts.

I don't see RA giving up the actual phone (if any) he was using that day to LE, but it will hard to explain why it wasn't included in the numbers from a tower dump. It is possible to track a phone’s location using the IMEI number, as long as the device is connected to a network. If was checking stock quotes like he said, it would have had to been connected.

They did recover 10-12 phones, including burners from his home during the Search so who knows what they might find.

JMO

The part that stood out to me about Richard Allen's interrogations in October 2022 was that he said he was willing to voluntarily give LE his phone(his current one?) until he felt during that interrogation that they were accusing him of the Delphi murders.

If Richard Allen really is bridge guy, he sure wanted to do whatever he could to help the police prove the case, without realizing this was a possibility.

 

[Charlot123]

I’ve been following this case since day one and after all of these years, the ups and downs, the accusations, the rumors, the incompetence, the suspects, investigators, photos, etc., I can honestly say, imo, there’s no way a jury will be unanimous in their verdict.

The ISP work should be called “Much Ado About Nothing.”

This doesn’t refer, of course, to the case itself, the tragic victims or their tirelessly advocating for justice relatives. Just to the fact that we heard so much and LE had so little.

Unspent is any cartridge not yet actually fired. The particular cartridge found at the crime scene had been loaded into a magazine, chambered, and ejected still unfired. This can be identified from certain dents and scratches.

This ejection of a fireable round from an already loaded and cocked weapon was intended to menace the panicking victims into compliance. The killer probably was unable to follow the flight to the ground because he was watching the girls for signs of bolting. Then he forgot all about it anyway. There was a lot going on.

The actual murder weapon (the knife) would have been in hiding right up until killing time.

MOO

So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job? I know there was a Murdaugh case with the discussion about the unspent bullets, but I didn’t follow it at all. I would assume that criminology of unspent cartridge is complicated, isn’t it? But to eject an unspent cartridge, technically, should be an easy process?

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.

 

[MiniMoo]

The part that stood out to me about Richard Allen's interrogations in October 2022 was that he said he was willing to voluntarily give LE his phone(his current one?) until he felt during that interrogation that they were accusing him of the Delphi murders.

If Richard Allen really is bridge guy, he sure wanted to do whatever he could to help the police prove the case, without realizing this was a possibility.

When was the first time the unspent bullet became public knowledge?

He may have had no idea about that until it was brought up to him face to face.

To volunteer without a fight and put yourself at the scene on the day (the trail, car park spot or bridge) is either a person that really is innocent or thinking they've got away with murder because not much evidence ties them to those girls or the crime scene.

Libby's video recording didn't turn up a concrete suspect and neither did those two composite drawings.

 

[sunshineray]

Him being there doesn’t make him as killer by default imo. I’d like to see how the State ties it all together to build what I hope is a solid case.

I think it will be his own words of confession that brings it all together. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The ISP work should be called “Much Ado About Nothing.”

This doesn’t refer, of course, to the case itself, the tragic victims or their tirelessly advocating for justice relatives. Just to the fact that we heard so much and LE had so little.



So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job? I know there was a Murdaugh case with the discussion about the unspent bullets, but I didn’t follow it at all. I would assume that criminology of unspent cartridge is complicated, isn’t it? But to eject an unspent cartridge, technically, should be an easy process?

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.

Concerning the State's case, we aren't privy to all the evidence that they have...yet. MO

 

[mrjitty]

The place for this testimony would be at trial. The defense is basically asking to test run part of their defense strategy so they can adjust it before trial. That's not the purpose of a Franks motion, and I would argue that having to bring in experts to testify about this matter would completely undermine the concept that Liggett would have knowingly and intentionally lied in the probable cause affidavit.

If the concepts are so hard to understand that they would have to bring in experts to sift through raw data in order to make their case to the judge... are they also then claiming that Liggett completely understood this same data as a layperson and knowingly and intentionally misled the court regarding the data?

It's self-defeating.

JMO

BIB. This is also what I find disingenuous about these supposed Franks motions

They are trying to litigate a potential key trial issue in the context if a search warrant PCA. Why would any of this complex info have been in the warrant?

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Expert testimony is already defined by Indiana trial rules:

(a) A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue.(b) Expert scientific testimony is admissible only if the court is satisfied that the expert testimony rests upon reliable scientific principles.

Rule 702 - Testimony by Expert Witnesses, Ind. R. Evid. 702 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Rule 702 - Testimony by Expert Witnesses, Ind. R. Evid. 702, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

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In the state's response to the defense's fourth franks motion, the state reveals that the defense deposed ISP Sergeant Greg Edwards back in February, to document his review of the pings and evidence. In order for him to provide his opinion of this technical subject matter, he would have to be considered an expert under Rule 702.

The state then quotes Sergeant Edwards verbatim for several paragraphs where he explains the pings, how they work, and that the pings shift over to historical records when the phone can no longer be contacted. At least half of the state's discussion of pings is literally Edwards' testimony, and most of the further discussion is based on this testimony as juxtaposed with the defense's claims.

Lastly, this isn't a motion to decide if the jury hears the experts, nor is it a motion to decide if the case gets thrown out. It's a motion to have a hearing to decide if the search warrant is suppressed because it was unlawfully obtained.

If the defense just wants the experts to be heard, they will 100% be heard and cross-examined during the jury trial.

JMO

Thanks for this

I had not twigged that Edwards qualified as an expert but it makes sense now.

 

[sunshineray]

I find it curious why he doesn’t specifically mention the 4:33am ping or explain how that specific ping is being misconstrued.

My own opinion of reading this motion is that I want NMs explanation stated outright. I don’t want to have to pick and chose bits and pieces of the motions to add all up to come to my own conclusion of what this person is attempting to say, or what they are trying to get the reader to think he is saying.

MOO

My own opinion is the State Prosecutors are not writing these motion's with the general public in mind. They're doing their job not concerning themselves with trying to make sure the general public understands.The punlic really doesn't even become relevant at trial either for there will be just the jurors to convince. That's their job, not making sure every person online interested in the case is fully informed. We get to observe what we can. We take what we can get and discuss, expecting anything else, IMO, is futile. AJMO
Of course when all is said and done with this trial, in the future there will be books to read I'm sure.

 

[sunshineray]

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

Officially the search was called off but many searchers stayed and continued to look for the girls.

 

[WildHuncher]

So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job?

You pull back the slide against spring resistance. A hook around the cartridge rim pulls it back until it strikes a projecting rod and is tumbled out through a port. A similar thing happens when the gun is actually fired, except of course an empty shell case is what flies out the port.

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.

So much speculation here. Do we know that RA was betrayed by a submitted tipster? Do we know anyone but RA had access to his gun? He told police he never lent it out. Do we know the bullet was found later in some second processing of the scene after it had been left unsecured? When was this bullet supposed to have been planted?

This is Occam’s Razor stood on its head. What if there was no tip? What if the bullet was found in the immediate crime scene processing once the girls were found?

Is someone setting RA up? How did they get him to go to the north end of the MHB on that fateful day? Who is this someone? BG, the real killer? What happened? Back up a little and tell us a coherent story.

Here’s example of a coherent story. RA is BG. He was there at the north end of the bridge. That’s him in Libby’s video crossing to the south end approaching the girls. He said “Guys, down the hill.” He brandished the gun and racked the slide at one or more points in the abduction and murders that followed.

No need to posit players not in evidence that way. Simple and understandable once you accept that people exist who do those things and this was a case of that.

 

[FromGermany1]

You are correct. The Keystone Cops closed up shop and went home until the next day. Other people continued searching in the dark, contaminating the crime scene, possibly including the killer/killers.

You are able to light up a football field, but not able to light up a forest/trail enough to find two missing girls (or possibly a hidden perpetrator). A pity actually.

 

[Salah11]

I'm curious why you think them wanting experts to weigh in is desperation on their part. Can you explain?

Because their client has no alibi so are now trying to change when the murders now occurred. It reeks of desperation IMO.