PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[guardian1234]

I assume this will be found undetermined at some point.

But that is infuriating in itself.

I'd like to see the person who can stab themselves in a 180 degree angle first in the back of the neck into the brain and after that manage to stab themselves - again 180 degrees around their body from the brain-penetrating neck wound - and through the breast plate deep inside the chest.

Just no. No way in hell.

I so agree She could not do this to herself n she was stabbed after her heart stopped beating according to to the autopsy. The knive was found in her chest

 

[ilovewings]

I so agree She could not do this to herself n she was stabbed after her heart stopped beating according to to the autopsy. The knive was found in her chest

Based on the finding that she was stabbed after her heart stopped beating should be enough for a homicide, shouldn't it? how could the coroner (ME) change the finding from homicide to suicide (which to my recall was done in this case- correct me if I am wrong. What a mess

 

[snarast]

Based on the finding that she was stabbed after her heart stopped beating should be enough for a homicide, shouldn't it? how could the coroner (ME) change the finding from homicide to suicide (which to my recall was done in this case- correct me if I am wrong. What a mess

Definitely. But I guess that it comes down to the order in which the stabs were inflicted.

1. Stabbed in the chest first - well this would make murder a certain conclusion. A couple of times over.

2. Stabbed in the chest last - this is what seems more likely. Someone attacked her from behind as she was preparing a snack. She was incapacitated from the severing of the dural sack and the leaking spinal fluid. The remaining18 stabs before the last in the chest could then be inflicted without defensive wounds.

The wound into her brain is one very strange aspect. It is such a bizarre angle. Impossible for her and I can only envision this wound being inflicted by a perp who was standing face to face to her - and was lefthanded.

 

[IloveAaronEckhart4Ever]

Maybe her fiance killed her after an argument or after telling her he didn't want to marry her

 

[ilovewings]

Maybe her fiance killed her after an argument or after telling her he didn't want to marry her

Thing is we will never know because the police and coroner botched this case so thoroughly. It is just tragic for her family that they will never get the answers they deserve.

 

[snarast]

Thing is we will never know because the police and coroner botched this case so thoroughly. It is just tragic for her family that they will never get the answers they deserve.

very true. Nonetheless ruling it murder is the right thing to do. Only the few people who read for more than 10 min about this will know who is 99% involved.

He’s a big boy, he can take it. A criminal trial is impossible regardless of the ruling.

 

[CHEL]

Former Assistant DA to testify in Ellen Greenberg case, says her body was moved: attorney

The Greenberg's attorneys were in court Tuesday, in regards to a lawsuit filed against the City of Philadelphia, and the Medical Examiner's Office, in the case

www.local21news.com

 

[arielilane]

Former Assistant DA to testify in Ellen Greenberg case, says her body was moved: attorney

The Greenberg's attorneys were in court Tuesday, in regards to a lawsuit filed against the City of Philadelphia, and the Medical Examiner's Office, in the case

www.local21news.com

@CHEL, thank you for posting the article. Glad the Greenbergs are not giving up.

- from the article: bbm

The court is allowing the Greenberg's attorneys to move forward with discovery and depositions in the case, and they have a deadline to get that done by May 6th, 2024.

The hope for the family is that this civil case goes to trial in the fall.

 

[ilovewings]

@CHEL, thank you for posting the article. Glad the Greenbergs are not giving up.

- from the article: bbm

The court is allowing the Greenberg's attorneys to move forward with discovery and depositions in the case, and they have a deadline to get that done by May 6th, 2024.

The hope for the family is that this civil case goes to trial in the fall.

Thank you for this update: cannot believe it has been 13 years since she was murdered

 

[snarast]

Does anyone have info about suicide methods statistics?

It would be mighty interesting to see how many women committed suicide through stabbing themselves through the breastplate with their nondominant hand.

 

[arielilane]

A former prosecutor knew nothing about Ellen Greenberg’s death when he first read her file in 2016. He’s been consumed by its inconsistencies ever since.
https://t.co/Y7sl1XEIQh

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784892914746675276

Death scene ‘bizarre to say the least,” says star witness in Ellen Greenberg case

A former prosecutor knew nothing about Ellen Greenberg’s death when he first read her file in 2016. He’s been consumed by its inconsistencies ever since.

www.pennlive.com

• Updated: Apr. 29, 2024, 5:12 a.m.|Published: Apr. 29, 2024, 5:05 a.m.

 

[snarast]

”More than five years after Ellen’s mysterious death, her file in the DA’s office wasn’t easy to locate, however. Since it wasn’t a homicide, it wasn’t filed with the rest of those cases, D’Andrea said. He rummaged through several more locations before finally stumbling upon it in an office closet used to store Christmas decorations.”

Oh how nice and orderly.

Get this case off of suicide. Now.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but after just hearing about this and reading about it for a short while (~1 hour or so) it's pretty obvious this was overkill - and likely to be an ex/boyfriend etc As I was typing this comment, I read the first page on this thread and someone mentioned that her fiancé had a high-profile lawyer who was first on scene???

This is almost impossible to have been suicide. There is a murderer out there and the case needs re-investigating.

 

[ilovewings]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but after just hearing about this and reading about it for a short while (~1 hour or so) it's pretty obvious this was overkill - and likely to be an ex/boyfriend etc As I was typing this comment, I read the first page on this thread and someone mentioned that her fiancé had a high-profile lawyer who was first on scene???

This is almost impossible to have been suicide. There is a murderer out there and the case needs re-investigating.

This case represents a glaring miscarriage of justice. Don't know if it will be re-investigated, though it is beyond obvious that is what needs to occur here. I hate cases like this. There are just too many cases where detectives jump to a conclusion of suicide despite evidence to the contrary. I blame this on poor detective work (sometimes lazy) - the same applies to a coroner or medical examiner. Once the death certificate states "suicide"-- investigation ceases and often the case file gets thrown away. Watching true crime reveals this far too often.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

This case represents a glaring miscarriage of justice. Don't know if it will be re-investigated, though it is beyond obvious that is what needs to occur here. I hate cases like this. There are just too many cases where detectives jump to a conclusion of suicide despite evidence to the contrary. I blame this on poor detective work (sometimes lazy) - the same applies to a coroner or medical examiner. Once the death certificate states "suicide"-- investigation ceases and often the case file gets thrown away. Watching true crime reveals this far too often.

This is the problem in every profession, there are often lazy/poor people involved in a case and it destroys lives (negligent doctors for example), or in this case, negligent police / detectives.

What annoys me the most, is that it doesn't even take a professional to realise that the angle of the blade/instrument used creates a wound - from which you can begin to work out the axis and then work out the force required for the knife to penetrate the body. It's abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that Ellen could physically not have caused those injuries herself unless she had created some kind of depraved Saw-movie-esque trap (I say that in all seriousness). There should have been blood splatter analysis too, was that even done? It may even be possible in some cases to determine the position that the attacker was in, or even the height of the attacker etc

This is one of the most disturbing cases I've seen and it's a disgrace that someone even signed this off as suicide.

 

[guardian1234]

Exactly. Multiple stab wounds is not painless suicide. I find it hard to understand why it was treated as suicide because it seems like a very unusual method to commit suicide. And how do you stab yourself multiple times in the back? If she was googling painless suicide, I don't think she would have killed herself through multiple stab wounds. I googled painless suicide for research purposes on this case and there was no suggestions that multiple stab wounds is the way to commit painless suicide.
That's certainly not painless. It's a very strange case to say the least. But even assuming she was suicidal, a suicidal person can still be murdered. The door was locked from the inside but apparently those bar locks could be manipulated from the outside. So somebody could have killed her then manipulated the lock.

Her fiancé did her murder ,

 

[ilovewings]

Her fiancé did her murder ,

If he did it, he has gotten away with it due to a botched police and ME investigations.

 

[CCJD]

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court decided on Tuesday to hear the case of Ellen Greenberg whose death was ruled a suicide in 2011, but her parents have fought for over a decade to get the manner of death changed to a homicide or undecided.

Greenberg’s family has been in a years-long fight with the City of Philadelphia over Ellen’s manner of death since it was ruled a suicide in 2011.

Ellen’s parents believe she was murdered.

Pa. Supreme Court to hear wrongful death case of Philadelphia teacher Ellen Greenberg

The Pa. Supreme Court has decided to hear the wrongful death case of Ellen Greenberg, a Philly teacher whose death in 2011 was ruled a suicide. Her parents have maintained since that she was murdered.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

 

[dotr]

Pennsylvania Supreme Court agrees to review suicide ruling in case of woman with 20 stab wounds

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal from the family of a Philadelphia woman whose 2011 stabbing death was initially ruled a homicide

www.thestar.com

''HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal from the family of a Philadelphia woman whose 2011 stabbing death was initially ruled a homicide before the medical examiner switched it to suicide after police objected.
First-grade teacher Ellen Greenberg, 27, was found in her apartment with 20 stab wounds. Police considered her death a suicide because her apartment door was locked from the inside and her boyfriend — who said he found her after breaking down the door — had no defensive wounds.''

 

[Missing Susan]

View attachment 432623'
The Chester County District Attorney's Office began an outside investigation into Ellen's death last year, but now governor Shapira had been sitting on the case for years while he was attorney general.

'He stole four years from us, holding the case in his office, and we have no evidence of him doing anything,' said Ellen's mother Sandee Greenberg.

snipped/bolded for focus

If Gov Shapiro gets the VP nod, this case should see some sunlight as it will be used as a political attack vector against a Harris/Shapiro ticket.