MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

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ekardh said:
Why would Amy's father stop to use the gas station restroom when the family home was only a few minutes away?

Also, the investigators must have had good reason to carry out an excavation at the farm after 25 years.
Click to expand...
<modsnip>

Most likely, they were able to persuade a judge that they would find something. However, it doesn't seem likely that they did...since it is now 2023 and nothing has come of it. They had unrestricted access to everything for six days, and have held onto whatever they took for almost ten years now, and nothing.
<modsnip>
 
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How heartbreaking. She had never heard of this case before. It's really scary because I have two kids (11F, 05F) one about Amy's age at the time of her disappearance, and I left them in the car while I ran to a store to buy a couple of items. I lock the door, but at her age it never occurred to me that something like that could happen... And then add the fact that it was 1989 when that happened. Very sad!

I hope Amy's family finally gets some answers. It's probably a long shot, but it seems like old cases are being solved every day...

I never did this when they were little, and my kids are very similar ages, so it was a pain at times when they were that little, but it wasn't a risk I would take.

I only started doing this when my daughter was 10 and my youngest daughter was 4. And only in this store do I buy lottery tickets. I park in a spot where I can see them, even now. I just started doing it because one day my daughter asked me if she and her brother could stay in the car and since she was 11 years old I said yes. It's just that she'd always heard horror stories about stolen cars with babies in them, but not about 13-year-old girls kidnapped from her father's car in broad daylight. Nightmarish!

either way

rest in peace
 
We'll I dropped her name on a Q&A with a nationally recognized detective.. praying he takes a good.look at her case. Keeping my fingers crossed.
She deserves to have her story nationally looked into.
Enough time has elapsed... she deserves a spotlight until her case is resolved.
 
ekardh said:
Why would Amy's father stop to use the gas station restroom when the family home was only a few minutes away?

Also, the investigators must have had good reason to carry out an excavation at the farm after 25 years.
Click to expand...
<modsnip: When a post is removed do not repost the information.>

It is possible that the reporters and the police focus on the trip to the bathroom because it was during that time that she disappeared. It isn't really relevant that he stopped to get gas since she didn't disappear while he was getting gas. They probably didn't think it was significant enough to mention that he got gas at a gas station, and it probably never occurred to them that this would be considered an important omission.
 
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theshadow45 said:
Bumping, today is Amy’s birthday.
Click to expand...
Thank you for bumping this.


In 2021, a homeless woman named Amy died in Washington state. There is no age or picture. However, this Amy had seizures, attributed to a fall, and this Amy went by Bob. Amy P was said to have seizures and possible mental health issues. Here is the article: Amy (Bob) from (Council for the Homeless)

What stands out is that this Amy/Bob would not follow through on referrals that required paperwork or documentation

It would be a coincidence, I know. But if Amy P did willing leave, she went somewhere, and this Amy/Bob came from somewhere.
 
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All pure speculation and opinion (and a long ramble..)

Jmo, but I think the whole story of Amy disappearing from the gas station is preposterous.

If my speculation is correct, all that MM would have had to do to pull this off would have been to convince police on the initial phone call from the gas station that Amy had run away.

Once that was accomplished, once that was embedded as the basis of the story… any later police investigation into any scenario other than runaway has been irreparably harmed. Irretrievably broken. Opportunities lost. You can’t undo it. So, in this case, as they say, nothing happened “in the first 48”. And for a missing 13 year old! What a tragedy. To say it was a very poor judgement call by police is, imo, the understatement of the year

Who was the dispatcher or officer who supposedly told MM to go on home and that police would just meet him there for a casual interview about how often she runs away and how delinquent a girl she is with all the running away for drugs and sex and stuff. What were the cops thinking? That is unforgivable in my book. Hard to believe even. Amy was 13!

What if AMY HAD been abducted? You just ignore the scene of the abduction? The only person who could have led LE to believe it was not an abduction was MM. But how could he have known? He did not see her leave the car or station. He said she was already gone. Why would he backburner the possibility of an abduction?

Can you imagine a dispatcher or police officer making a similar judgement call if the supposed “runaway” had been the man’s wife? “Officer she must’ve just run away while I was doing my business.”? “Ok, we’ll just meet you at your place and get a statement from you!”

No, if a wife had gone missing under similar circumstances, the husband would have been the (albeit unnamed) prime suspect no. 1. As well as numbers 2-10. Surveillance would’ve been checked, statements taken, witnesses (gas station employees and others) interviewed, father and daughter isolated, forensics done on the car, bolo’s issued, areas searched. For days. Why was this treated differently because it was a thirteen year old girl?

It seems to me that Amy was diagnosed with epilepsy as a matter of convenience. To throw shade snd deflect blame. When you can’t think of any other reason why she is so much trouble, so delinquent and so disobedient. Just narrative building and virtue signaling. “It can’t be us!” “And, did I tell you that she’s net even my child, so I’m responsible if she has ended up a bad seed.”

But even if the epilepsy were true, don’t seizures most often (most often, I know, not always) result in a person convulsing - w/eyes rolling back, etc. - not with the person getting out of the car and calmly walking away. And where would she have gone?

I read earlier in the thread that at one time, one of the parents (I think it was MM) suggested that she had been running away to have sex and to do drugs. Very curious statement. Sounds like more shade. I guess they were not terribly worried about Amy’s reputation. I wonder if the father would have easily offered up that smear if Amy had been his biological child? There have been cases in the past where it did.

And in the past hadn’t Amy normally taken a backpack with her when she left home for a day or two? Why wouldn’t she wait the 2 miles to get home to get the backpack this time? It makes absolutely no sense. She was not in the car at the gas station (jmo)

Why take the word of a possible suspect (about the runaways, and about the epilepsy, and about the gas station, and about the farm, and about the trip, and about the sex and the drugs, and the PI reports about the stripping, and the sightings and hanging out with bad characters much too old for her? Why take the word of a possible SUSPECT and a PI hired by the possible suspect? Would they have done that if it was his wife who was missing? Barry Morphew comes to mind

And why didn’t LE take the time to go find and interview the supposed witness at the farm who “saw them leave” on their own? Did police EVER identify this individual? Why did it take a PI hired by the family to find this witness and report the witness’ statement to police? Wouldn’t that make it hearsay, which is unreliable testimony - even in court. Did police just take the PI’s word for it? I have yet to see a link verifying that LE has ever stated as a fact that a witness saw (and could 100 percent identify) the two of them when they were at the farm, or as they were leaving the farm

And apparently it’s the same family PI who continued to throw up one red herring after another.. two friends swear they saw her one or two weeks later; she’s a stripper out west but she got away; she’s hanging out with a crowd that’s too old for her, she often gets epileptic seizures and just wanders off .. Imo the PI was dropping smoke bomb after smoke bomb for the people who paid him to do just that. More shade. Why would loving parents paint their child out to be such an evil person (that’s the way it came across to me anyway)?

And I don’t care what you call MM.. but for those that think bio father and adoptive (or step) father are statistically the same when it comes to crimes against natural vs adopted or step children, just do some research here on web sleuths. Insisting that because his name (as adopting father) is on her birth certificate does not mitigate this at all. Attempts to claim that it does are misguided (and leave the reader/listener wondering: could there be a motive behind such an adamant yet factually unsupported stance? And if Amy was his adopted daughter, and his name is on her birth certificate, why doesn’t she share his name?

But, what could LE do? They couldn’t go investigate each of these far fetched PI claims meant (imo) to deflect blame from MM and possibly SP. They had a budget. Not to mention, they were checkmated the moment they bought the runaway story in the very first phone call - and they knew it (though I give them credit for taking a second look at things 25 years later - but I never thought Amy was buried at the house). There might have been evidence of a crime in the house, but I think Amy is located approx 2 hours away by car.

So I don’t think Amy was ever at the gas station, and I don’t think she (or MM for that matter) was ever at the farm that day.

I think whatever happened to Amy happened overnight or in the morning the day of MM’s trip (to someplace). Someplace other than the farm. If (IF) something happened at the house, this would have been an easy-to-come-up with cover story for disposal and then false report. She ran away! Blame Amy!

I wonder what Amy’s sister remembers of that prior evening and that am? How old was she? How much does she remember vs how much she was told? Was she asleep? Did she actually see Amy that morning, or was she just told that’s where her dad and Amy went?

Why would LE be digging up the yard and searching the house in 2014 if they didn’t believe a possible crime had occurred at that location. Imo it was more than a few neighbors mentioning landscaping. Very likely it was discrepancies in stories - did he stop to do his business (but then happen to just buy gas before calling cops? - or did he buy gas, then use restroom as an afterthought? - SP said he “stopped to do his business”). That’s good enough for me. Or, maybe they had trouble locating the the mysterious farm dude, or they gleaned info from tapped phones. Idk

Jmo, but I think LE has a pretty good idea of what might have happened, but (if my speculation is correct) they have no clue where MM took Amy that morning. He could’ve headed anywhere.

Imo the only way this crime will ever be solved is if Amy’s body is somehow found and DNA or other evidence can tieher killer to her. But at this stage I don’t think she will ever be found. Imo he would not have gone to a property they owned. Was he a hunter, or fisherman? Did he own a cabin, or have storage some where? What outdoor area or remote out building was he familiar with (but didn’t own) within 2-3 hours that was not the farm? Also could’ve been a dumpster (again, everything in this post is speculation).

I hope that someday there is some small measure of justice for Amy. The time for a full measure of justice for an Amy has long since passed. A very sad and frustrating case, as it appears that somebody got away with murder.

All jmo
 
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Rush4087 said:
All pure speculation and opinion (and a long ramble..)

Jmo, but I think the whole story of Amy disappearing from the gas station is preposterous.

If my speculation is correct, all that MM would have had to do to pull this off would have been to convince police on the initial phone call from the gas station that Amy had run away.

Once that was accomplished, once that was embedded as the basis of the story… any later police investigation into any scenario other than runaway has been irreparably harmed. Irretrievably broken. Opportunities lost. You can’t undo it. So, in this case, as they say, nothing happened “in the first 48”. And for a missing 13 year old! What a tragedy. To say it was a very poor judgement call by police is, imo, the understatement of the year

Who was the dispatcher or officer who supposedly told MM to go on home and that police would just meet him there for a casual interview about how often she runs away and how delinquent a girl she is with all the running away for drugs and sex and stuff. What were the cops thinking? That is unforgivable in my book. Hard to believe even. Amy was 13!

What if AMY HAD been abducted? You just ignore the scene of the abduction? The only person who could have led LE to believe it was not an abduction was MM. But how could he have known? He did not see her leave the car or station. He said she was already gone. Why would he backburner the possibility of an abduction?

Can you imagine a dispatcher or police officer making a similar judgement call if the supposed “runaway” had been the man’s wife? “Officer she must’ve just run away while I was doing my business.”? “Ok, we’ll just meet you at your place and get a statement from you!”

No, if a wife had gone missing under similar circumstances, the husband would have been the (albeit unnamed) prime suspect no. 1. As well as numbers 2-10. Surveillance would’ve been checked, statements taken, witnesses (gas station employees and others) interviewed, father and daughter isolated, forensics done on the car, bolo’s issued, areas searched. For days. Why was this treated differently because it was a thirteen year old girl?

It seems to me that Amy was diagnosed with epilepsy as a matter of convenience. To throw shade snd deflect blame. When you can’t think of any other reason why she is so much trouble, so delinquent and so disobedient. Just narrative building and virtue signaling. “It can’t be us!” “And, did I tell you that she’s net even my child, so I’m responsible if she has ended up a bad seed.”

But even if the epilepsy were true, don’t seizures most often (most often, I know, not always) result in a person convulsing - w/eyes rolling back, etc. - not with the person getting out of the car and calmly walking away. And where would she have gone?

I read earlier in the thread that at one time, one of the parents (I think it was MM) suggested that she had been running away to have sex and to do drugs. Very curious statement. Sounds like more shade. I guess they were not terribly worried about Amy’s reputation. I wonder if the father would have easily offered up that smear if Amy had been his biological child? There have been cases in the past where it did.

And in the past hadn’t Amy normally taken a backpack with her when she left home for a day or two? Why wouldn’t she wait the 2 miles to get home to get the backpack this time? It makes absolutely no sense. She was not in the car at the gas station (jmo)

Why take the word of a possible suspect (about the runaways, and about the epilepsy, and about the gas station, and about the farm, and about the trip, and about the sex and the drugs, and the PI reports about the stripping, and the sightings and hanging out with bad characters much too old for her? Why take the word of a possible SUSPECT and a PI hired by the possible suspect? Would they have done that if it was his wife who was missing? Barry Morphew comes to mind

And why didn’t LE take the time to go find and interview the supposed witness at the farm who “saw them leave” on their own? Did police EVER identify this individual? Why did it take a PI hired by the family to find this witness and report the witness’ statement to police? Wouldn’t that make it hearsay, which is unreliable testimony - even in court. Did police just take the PI’s word for it? I have yet to see a link verifying that LE has ever stated as a fact that a witness saw (and could 100 percent identify) the two of them when they were at the farm, or as they were leaving the farm

And apparently it’s the same family PI who continued to throw up one red herring after another.. two friends swear they saw her one or two weeks later; she’s a stripper out west but she got away; she’s hanging out with a crowd that’s too old for her, she often gets epileptic seizures and just wanders off .. Imo the PI was dropping smoke bomb after smoke bomb for the people who paid him to do just that. More shade. Why would loving parents paint their child out to be such an evil person (that’s the way it came across to me anyway)?

And I don’t care what you call MM.. but for those that think bio father and adoptive (or step) father are statistically the same when it comes to crimes against natural vs adopted or step children, just do some research here on web sleuths. Insisting that because his name (as adopting father) is on her birth certificate does not mitigate this at all. Attempts to claim that it does are misguided (and leave the reader/listener wondering: could there be a motive behind such an adamant yet factually unsupported stance? And if Amy was his adopted daughter, and his name is on her birth certificate, why doesn’t she share his name?

But, what could LE do? They couldn’t go investigate each of these far fetched PI claims meant (imo) to deflect blame from MM and possibly SP. They had a budget. Not to mention, they were checkmated the moment they bought the runaway story in the very first phone call - and they knew it (though I give them credit for taking a second look at things 25 years later - but I never thought Amy was buried at the house). There might have been evidence of a crime in the house, but I think Amy is located approx 2 hours away by car.

So I don’t think Amy was ever at the gas station, and I don’t think she (or MM for that matter) was ever at the farm that day.

I think whatever happened to Amy happened overnight or in the morning the day of MM’s trip (to someplace). Someplace other than the farm. If (IF) something happened at the house, this would have been an easy-to-come-up with cover story for disposal and then false report. She ran away! Blame Amy!

I wonder what Amy’s sister remembers of that prior evening and that am? How old was she? How much does she remember vs how much she was told? Was she asleep? Did she actually see Amy that morning, or was she just told that’s where her dad and Amy went?

Why would LE be digging up the yard and searching the house in 2014 if they didn’t believe a possible crime had occurred at that location. Imo it was more than a few neighbors mentioning landscaping. Very likely it was discrepancies in stories - did he stop to do his business (but then happen to just buy gas before calling cops? - or did he buy gas, then use restroom as an afterthought? - SP said he “stopped to do his business”). That’s good enough for me. Or, maybe they had trouble locating the the mysterious farm dude, or they gleaned info from tapped phones. Idk

Jmo, but I think LE has a pretty good idea of what might have happened, but (if my speculation is correct) they have no clue where MM took Amy that morning. He could’ve headed anywhere.

Imo the only way this crime will ever be solved is if Amy’s body is somehow found and DNA or other evidence can tieher killer to her. But at this stage I don’t think she will ever be found. Imo he would not have gone to a property they owned. Was he a hunter, or fisherman? Did he own a cabin, or have storage some where? What outdoor area or remote out building was he familiar with (but didn’t own) within 2-3 hours that was not the farm? Also could’ve been a dumpster (again, everything in this post is speculation).

I hope that someday there is some small measure of justice for Amy. The time for a full measure of justice for an Amy has long since passed. A very sad and frustrating case, as it appears that somebody got away with murder.

All jmo
Click to expand...
Wow, I believe much like you. However I always thought something occurred on the farm. However maybe you have a better theory that whatever happened to her happened before the supposed farm trip. Wow... I think you have something there.
I never believed the stripper theories, the other people by the farm seeing her, and no one at the gas station recalled seeing her.
They tore up both properties, because I believe they have a solid theory and know but don't have what it takes to get her justice. She's out there, ans one person knows where she is.
I have yet see anything that substantiate the claims of seizuring. No school mates or teachers.. just mom and mm.
 
Also
Rush4087 said:
All pure speculation and opinion (and a long ramble..)

Jmo, but I think the whole story of Amy disappearing from the gas station is preposterous.

If my speculation is correct, all that MM would have had to do to pull this off would have been to convince police on the initial phone call from the gas station that Amy had run away.

Once that was accomplished, once that was embedded as the basis of the story… any later police investigation into any scenario other than runaway has been irreparably harmed. Irretrievably broken. Opportunities lost. You can’t undo it. So, in this case, as they say, nothing happened “in the first 48”. And for a missing 13 year old! What a tragedy. To say it was a very poor judgement call by police is, imo, the understatement of the year

Who was the dispatcher or officer who supposedly told MM to go on home and that police would just meet him there for a casual interview about how often she runs away and how delinquent a girl she is with all the running away for drugs and sex and stuff. What were the cops thinking? That is unforgivable in my book. Hard to believe even. Amy was 13!

What if AMY HAD been abducted? You just ignore the scene of the abduction? The only person who could have led LE to believe it was not an abduction was MM. But how could he have known? He did not see her leave the car or station. He said she was already gone. Why would he backburner the possibility of an abduction?

Can you imagine a dispatcher or police officer making a similar judgement call if the supposed “runaway” had been the man’s wife? “Officer she must’ve just run away while I was doing my business.”? “Ok, we’ll just meet you at your place and get a statement from you!”

No, if a wife had gone missing under similar circumstances, the husband would have been the (albeit unnamed) prime suspect no. 1. As well as numbers 2-10. Surveillance would’ve been checked, statements taken, witnesses (gas station employees and others) interviewed, father and daughter isolated, forensics done on the car, bolo’s issued, areas searched. For days. Why was this treated differently because it was a thirteen year old girl?

It seems to me that Amy was diagnosed with epilepsy as a matter of convenience. To throw shade snd deflect blame. When you can’t think of any other reason why she is so much trouble, so delinquent and so disobedient. Just narrative building and virtue signaling. “It can’t be us!” “And, did I tell you that she’s net even my child, so I’m responsible if she has ended up a bad seed.”

But even if the epilepsy were true, don’t seizures most often (most often, I know, not always) result in a person convulsing - w/eyes rolling back, etc. - not with the person getting out of the car and calmly walking away. And where would she have gone?

I read earlier in the thread that at one time, one of the parents (I think it was MM) suggested that she had been running away to have sex and to do drugs. Very curious statement. Sounds like more shade. I guess they were not terribly worried about Amy’s reputation. I wonder if the father would have easily offered up that smear if Amy had been his biological child? There have been cases in the past where it did.

And in the past hadn’t Amy normally taken a backpack with her when she left home for a day or two? Why wouldn’t she wait the 2 miles to get home to get the backpack this time? It makes absolutely no sense. She was not in the car at the gas station (jmo)

Why take the word of a possible suspect (about the runaways, and about the epilepsy, and about the gas station, and about the farm, and about the trip, and about the sex and the drugs, and the PI reports about the stripping, and the sightings and hanging out with bad characters much too old for her? Why take the word of a possible SUSPECT and a PI hired by the possible suspect? Would they have done that if it was his wife who was missing? Barry Morphew comes to mind

And why didn’t LE take the time to go find and interview the supposed witness at the farm who “saw them leave” on their own? Did police EVER identify this individual? Why did it take a PI hired by the family to find this witness and report the witness’ statement to police? Wouldn’t that make it hearsay, which is unreliable testimony - even in court. Did police just take the PI’s word for it? I have yet to see a link verifying that LE has ever stated as a fact that a witness saw (and could 100 percent identify) the two of them when they were at the farm, or as they were leaving the farm

And apparently it’s the same family PI who continued to throw up one red herring after another.. two friends swear they saw her one or two weeks later; she’s a stripper out west but she got away; she’s hanging out with a crowd that’s too old for her, she often gets epileptic seizures and just wanders off .. Imo the PI was dropping smoke bomb after smoke bomb for the people who paid him to do just that. More shade. Why would loving parents paint their child out to be such an evil person (that’s the way it came across to me anyway)?

And I don’t care what you call MM.. but for those that think bio father and adoptive (or step) father are statistically the same when it comes to crimes against natural vs adopted or step children, just do some research here on web sleuths. Insisting that because his name (as adopting father) is on her birth certificate does not mitigate this at all. Attempts to claim that it does are misguided (and leave the reader/listener wondering: could there be a motive behind such an adamant yet factually unsupported stance? And if Amy was his adopted daughter, and his name is on her birth certificate, why doesn’t she share his name?

But, what could LE do? They couldn’t go investigate each of these far fetched PI claims meant (imo) to deflect blame from MM and possibly SP. They had a budget. Not to mention, they were checkmated the moment they bought the runaway story in the very first phone call - and they knew it (though I give them credit for taking a second look at things 25 years later - but I never thought Amy was buried at the house). There might have been evidence of a crime in the house, but I think Amy is located approx 2 hours away by car.

So I don’t think Amy was ever at the gas station, and I don’t think she (or MM for that matter) was ever at the farm that day.

I think whatever happened to Amy happened overnight or in the morning the day of MM’s trip (to someplace). Someplace other than the farm. If (IF) something happened at the house, this would have been an easy-to-come-up with cover story for disposal and then false report. She ran away! Blame Amy!

I wonder what Amy’s sister remembers of that prior evening and that am? How old was she? How much does she remember vs how much she was told? Was she asleep? Did she actually see Amy that morning, or was she just told that’s where her dad and Amy went?

Why would LE be digging up the yard and searching the house in 2014 if they didn’t believe a possible crime had occurred at that location. Imo it was more than a few neighbors mentioning landscaping. Very likely it was discrepancies in stories - did he stop to do his business (but then happen to just buy gas before calling cops? - or did he buy gas, then use restroom as an afterthought? - SP said he “stopped to do his business”). That’s good enough for me. Or, maybe they had trouble locating the the mysterious farm dude, or they gleaned info from tapped phones. Idk

Jmo, but I think LE has a pretty good idea of what might have happened, but (if my speculation is correct) they have no clue where MM took Amy that morning. He could’ve headed anywhere.

Imo the only way this crime will ever be solved is if Amy’s body is somehow found and DNA or other evidence can tieher killer to her. But at this stage I don’t think she will ever be found. Imo he would not have gone to a property they owned. Was he a hunter, or fisherman? Did he own a cabin, or have storage some where? What outdoor area or remote out building was he familiar with (but didn’t own) within 2-3 hours that was not the farm? Also could’ve been a dumpster (again, everything in this post is speculation).

I hope that someday there is some small measure of justice for Amy. The time for a full measure of justice for an Amy has long since passed. A very sad and frustrating case, as it appears that somebody got away with murder.

All jmo
Click to expand...
Also don't the investigation have to have good cause and purpose to be able to get a warrant for digging?
It's almost like they know that' she is gone but for them to prove there case they have to find her remains. I really hope we're both wrong.. however 2014 seemed so hopeful. 10 years later nothing... I just don't know of they'll ever find her. I'm praying she's found and justice served.
 
BeautifulRecluse said:
Wow, I believe much like you. However I always thought something occurred on the farm. However maybe you have a better theory that whatever happened to her happened before the supposed farm trip. Wow... I think you have something there.
I never believed the stripper theories, the other people by the farm seeing her, and no one at the gas station recalled seeing her.
They tore up both properties, because I believe they have a solid theory and know but don't have what it takes to get her justice. She's out there, ans one person knows where she is.
I have yet see anything that substantiate the claims of seizuring. No school mates or teachers.. just mom and mm.
Click to expand...
And sister, who was 8 at that time.
 
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