The Ramsey case in general

[SterlingArcher]

New here.

But what if an intruder didnt mean to kill her. And really meant to kidnap her.. Knocked her out too hard, wrote the note, tried to put her in the suitcase to kidnap her and when he realized he couldn't get that to work his whole plan was messed up and strangled her in a panic (or she came to which would explain the scream from the basement). Has this been looked at?

I'm also convinced it was an outside person.

 

[CloudedTruth]

New here.

But what if an intruder didnt mean to kill her. And really meant to kidnap her.. Knocked her out too hard, wrote the note, tried to put her in the suitcase to kidnap her and when he realized he couldn't get that to work his whole plan was messed up and strangled her in a panic (or she came to which would explain the scream from the basement). Has this been looked at?

I'm also convinced it was an outside person.

There is nothing to suggest that it was a kidnapping. The SA is a strong clue that it was not. A kidnapper would've been in and out very quickly, not taking her down to the basement to have his / her way with the victim first. The ransom note is also a huge clue to it not being a kidnapping or an intruder. No real kidnapper would write a note like that or do so in the house. And now that she's dead, why leave that behind which could possibly reveal clues as to who you are?

 

[australianwebsleuth]

New here.

But what if an intruder didnt mean to kill her. And really meant to kidnap her.. Knocked her out too hard, wrote the note, tried to put her in the suitcase to kidnap her and when he realized he couldn't get that to work his whole plan was messed up and strangled her in a panic (or she came to which would explain the scream from the basement). Has this been looked at?

I'm also convinced it was an outside person.

The head injury is so severe she would have been unconscious. There was no scream from the basement. ( the scream claim was recanted and happened two days earlier)

 

[SterlingArcher]

Oh kk. I’m sure I’ve missed a lot. But I’m back in, all in, well trained/experienced.

So no scream.. So if he accidentally killed her.. realized, and flipped.. is this something ppl have been talking about?

What’s the amount of force it takes to kill a little kid with a flashlight/of the like..? What if he meant to kidnap her and not kill.. theoretically..

And @CloudedTruth with all due respect, most of that is an opinion. To say “they wouldn’t have done this..” is too closed off for me. Best way to analyze, from my experience, is to not assume anything really.. I look at facts and data first.. I appreciate your outlook though and have considered!

 

[australianwebsleuth]

And @CloudedTruth with all due respect, most of that is an opinion. To say “they wouldn’t have done this..” is too closed off for me. Best way to analyze, from my experience, is to not assume anything really.. I look at facts and data first.. I appreciate your outlook though and have considered!

I agree, getting the facts right is the most important way of proceeding with the case. I tend to look at facts and reject conjecture. In fact I think the problem with the case is that the facts and timeline surrounding her death are not clear and need review by experts. It actually does not make sense. You may have seen what I have done with the autopsy report. I have done this because as I see this as the only way forward. I can't see subjective contradictory expert opinions about who wrote the letter having any effect on the case at all.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Oh kk. I’m sure I’ve missed a lot. But I’m back in, all in, well trained/experienced.

So no scream.. So if he accidentally killed her.. realized, and flipped.. is this something ppl have been talking about?

What’s the amount of force it takes to kill a little kid with a flashlight/of the like..? What if he meant to kidnap her and not kill.. theoretically..

And @CloudedTruth with all due respect, most of that is an opinion. To say “they wouldn’t have done this..” is too closed off for me. Best way to analyze, from my experience, is to not assume anything really.. I look at facts and data first.. I appreciate your outlook though and have considered!

Yes, I will concede that most is an opinion. However, it is an opinion that is not only shared by many, it is also based upon logic and historical context of how most kidnappers operate. If the purpose of a kidnapping is to get money from the victim's family, one typically seeks to obtain that end result with a well thought out plan in order to succeed. To leave behind almost nothing to reveal one's presence at the crime scene but then write a novel length note of nonsense makes no sense to me.

I also think it's worth noting that much of the evidence in this case is circumstantial.

Also with regard to the scream, while it is in question, the neighbor who heard it reported hearing it on the night of the murder, not two days earlier as was said above. The neighbor only started to doubt herself after having been questioned by Ramsey investigators. Her account to police prior to that was that she could not be sure of the exact time as she had not looked at the clock, but estimated it to be between midnight and 2am. It was piercing enough that it woke her, she slept with a window slightly open. She also did not specify that it came from the Ramsey basement as was suggested above, how could she possibly know that? She heard what she described as the scream of a child during the timeframe that it is estimated the murder occurred.

 

[CloudedTruth]

And @CloudedTruth with all due respect, most of that is an opinion. To say “they wouldn’t have done this..” is too closed off for me. Best way to analyze, from my experience, is to not assume anything really.. I look at facts and data first.. I appreciate your outlook though and have considered!

Here are some quotes from former police chief Mark Beckner with regard to FBI comments about the ransom note:

Beckner: “The FBI told us they’d never seen a 2.5 page ransom note.”

“No note has ever been written at the scene, and then left at the scene with the dead victim at the scene, other than this case.”

 

[proust20]

@SterlingArcher

A few questions, if I may:

Firstly, by what means did the intruder(s), whom you allege, arrive at and depart from the residence? Car, bike, on foot? The intruder(s) were 'sloppy'; yet they left no trace of their presence in the house?

How was it known that there was another set of Bloomis? And where to find them in the maze-like layout? The kidnapper decided not to bring a RN, but rather to write one, which took 25 minutes, at the CS? The plan was to remove JB in a suitcase, which also was not brought along to the house? Just rummaged around hoping to find a suitable one for transporting her? So, there was a car close by in which to put the suitcase?

Why did the intruder(s) take time to feed JB the pineapple? How was it known that this was a favorite snack of hers? Similarly, how was it known that both the white blanket and the Barbie nightgown were among her favorite items? How was it determined that the white blanket was in the dryer? Additional time was taken to wrap her in this blanket before escaping? Why tie JB's arms in a loose manner that would not functionally restrain her?

The intruder(s) just happened upon a child who had been molested previously? How was it known that the dog was at a neighbor's? And that the security system was not operating?

Why was the ransom demand the same odd amount as John's bonus? Why not ask for as much as JR could afford easily?

 

[InstantProof]

New here.

But what if an intruder didnt mean to kill her. And really meant to kidnap her.. Knocked her out too hard, wrote the note, tried to put her in the suitcase to kidnap her and when he realized he couldn't get that to work his whole plan was messed up and strangled her in a panic (or she came to which would explain the scream from the basement). Has this been looked at?

I'm also convinced it was an outside person.

I don't know if you're new to the case, but I would recommend reading or listening to interviews with the parents. Their attempts to convince that an intruder did it, their thinking that their treatment by detectives is the real crime here, their denial or confusion about half the objects or goings-on in their own home... It's a strange way to handle an unknown intruder doing this.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

I don't know if you're new to the case, but I would recommend reading or listening to interviews with the parents. Their attempts to convince that an intruder did it, their thinking that their treatment by detectives is the real crime here, their denial or confusion about half the objects or goings-on in their own home... It's a strange way to handle an unknown intruder doing this.

I agree with you but..... The problem with this is it is subjective rather than objective. The body is objective, DNA under finger nails is unfortunately a real issue for ' Proof beyond reasonable doubt' . That's why no one will ever be charged. The case is dead and buried,

 

[SterlingArcher]

I do get it. I've followed the case over the years but never looked into different possibilities myself. I think the case is getting more traction lately and someone obsessed enough will pull through.

I do find it weird the family couldnt remember some stuff from that night. I get BR being young... but even other inconsistencies. Other cases I've looked into, the involved seem to remember minute details being a traumatic event.
However, its not a deal breaker for me. I still think the evidence points to they didnt do it.

My top suspects are the housekeeper and Andrew..

 

[proust20]

@SterlingArcher

By the 'housekeeper', I assume that you refer to LHP. What should her motive be to bludgeon and asphyxiate JonBenet?
What evidence is there that JAR was in Boulder the night of the murder?

 

[CloudedTruth]

@SterlingArcher

By the 'housekeeper', I assume that you refer to LHP. What should her motive be to bludgeon and asphyxiate JonBenet?
What evidence is there that JAR was in Boulder the night of the murder?

Exactly.

And yet every now and again I hear about how John Andrew could have taken a private plane to commit the murder and then be back in Atlanta for Christmas, and that LHP conspired with her husband and Michael Helgoth to raid the safe in the wine cellar, although there is never a reasonable explanation as to how / why that somehow included killing JonBenet.

Neither scenario makes any sense when you look at all the facts, and frankly are both rather far fetched to put it nicely.

 

[proust20]

I am not clear about Patsy saying that she'd leave a check (2k?) on the counter for LHP after the Rs flew to MI.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I am not clear about Patsy saying that she'd leave a check (2k?) on the counter for LHP after the Rs flew to MI.

Yes, LHP had called Patsy (I think on 12/24) and she had agreed to loan LHP the $2000 and was going to leave her a check for that amount on the kitchen counter before leaving for Michigan. LHP would retrieve it when she went to the house to clean while they were gone.

 

[proust20]

@CloudedTruth

Thanks. But apparently Patsy never did write the check for LHP.

 

[CloudedTruth]

@CloudedTruth

Thanks. But apparently Patsy never did write the check for LHP.

That's my understanding too. From what I can recall, they went to a church service on the evening of the 24th, then to dinner at Pasta Jay's and then were looking at Christmas lights. Next day of course was Christmas and dinner at the White's. Anyone's guess as to whether she planned to write the check the morning of the 26th before they left or if she had forgotten altogether.