17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #20

[imamaze]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSueMe
Anyone wishing to discuss the demonstrations, political, religious or racial aspects of the Trayvon Martin case, please check out our new forum in the Private Area of Websleuths, called SOUND OFF.
Warning: Be sure to read the Required Reading thread.

[ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168453]Trayvon Martin Sound Off[/ame]

Ima

 

[CHICANA]

GZ was in his car with the windows closed initially so how would TM know who he was talking to. Plus TM had earbuds in listening to a conversation he was having with his gf. This is documented information confirming he was on the phone with her this whole time. GZ followed him from the clubhouse down to the cut through when GZ got out of his car and started to follow. LE then told him to stay with his car and GZ said okay but still continued his pursuit to the next street over (Retreat View Circle) and was on his way back when GZ said TM jumped him from behind and knocked him down banging his head on the cement. Problem is TM's body was found yards away, in the grass (not sidewalk as GZ claimed) and nowhere near the cut through path where GZ claims he was attacked. This is a big problem for GZ. The LE report supports where TM's body was found and not GZ's story. jmo

I will have to study that further. I'm critically, directionally challenged and I'm having a hard time comprehending this info. It all comes from the police report, including the position of the body ?
I'd read that TM's dad was describing the location of the body but I didn't see it in the report. Does the report have a diagram ?

 

[artsy1]

But if LE had been permitted to do their job we would not have the situation we have now. If GZ had listened to LE we would not have the situation we have now. If GZ had obeyed the rules of the NWP we would not have the situation we have now. If it was not for GZ we would not have the situation we have now. jmo

Totally agree! And to add to that thought, yesterday on Prime News, the loud mouthed blonde female attorney (I keep forgetting her name - it's NOT NG lol) that is often on the panel made this analogy in discussing the SYG law:

If a man runs out onto a speedway during a race, he is not allowed to shoot the driver of a vehicle about to run him over and claim SYG - that he used deadly force because his life was in danger - because he put himself in that position by entering the speedway.

IMHO, same applies to GZ. Had he never gotten out of his truck to follow TM, as the dispatcher told him not to do, he wouldn't have been put into a position, however the "fight" really went down, to use deadly force. He put himself into that position - even knowing that LE was on it's way.

 

[impatientredhead]

No one is going to like this post and I will go on record saying I don't believe the shooting was in anyway morally defensible.

BUT legally GZ only has to "believe" himself or another to be harms way. The previous calls to the police, the previous history of following "suspects" can be spun as defense. GZ was not a gun waving lunatic during any of those incidents, never had a physical altercation with any of them. Police and witnesses place GZ on his back TM on top of him. A jury only has to conclude that GZ was in fear for his life, not that in hindsight turns out he wasn't in danger. The jury doesn't have to agree that TM was a threat, only that at the time he pulled the trigger GZ "believed" it.

If they go to trial and lose to a SYG defense the state has to pay GZs legal bills and expenses. Justified shooting provides against civil liability as well. It is in the financial best interest of a lot of people and organization for this to be a justified shooting.

 

[artsy1]

Not morbid at all. If the special DA felt it was necessary let's hope she did it because if she finds GZ was justified you know the family will want a second opinion and will go ahead and get one. I know I would and I would not care what the cost was. Was his body taken to Miami??? jmo

I haven't heard anything about the disposition of TM's body - which is what got me to thinking about a possible exhumation without public knowledge.

 

[LambChop]

There was a witness who said TM was on top of GZ and hitting him.

I believe witnesses said they were wrestling. There are always ways you can end up on the bottom in an altercation. Such as what if GZ grabbed ahold of TM to detain him until LE arrived and TM resisted. With GZ trying to hold onto TM GZ could have fallen backwards with TM landing on top. If TM tried to get away and GZ continued to try and hold onto him it would appear they were wrestling. GZ does not have injuries consistent with constantly being punched continually in the face. From reports TM has no injuries consistent with punching someone in the face. So eye witnesses saying they were wrestling seems as if that is exactly what they were doing. GZ pursuing TM would lead a logical person to believe GZ did not want TM to get away. There is zero proof that TM was trying to do anything other than get back to the condo. jmo

 

[Velouria]

Totally agree! And to add to that thought, yesterday on Prime News, the loud mouthed blonde female attorney (I keep forgetting her name - it's NOT NG lol) that is often on the panel made this analogy in discussing the SYG law:

If a man runs out onto a speedway during a race, he is not allowed to shoot the driver of a vehicle about to run him over and claim SYG - that he used deadly force because his life was in danger - because he put himself in that position by entering the speedway.
IMHO, same applies to GZ. Had he never gotten out of his truck to follow TM, as the dispatcher told him not to do, he wouldn't have been put into a position, however the "fight" really went down, to use deadly force. He put himself into that position - even knowing that LE was on it's way.

BBM

Jayne Weintraub.

I just about :thud: when I heard her say something I agreed with for once!

 

[LambChop]

I haven't heard anything about the disposition of TM's body - which is what got me to thinking about a possible exhumation without public knowledge.

And if the body were in Miami, who would know??? An ME for Dade County could easily do an autopsy, IMO. jmo

 

[Gin]

But if LE had been permitted to do their job we would not have the situation we have now. If GZ had listened to LE we would not have the situation we have now. If GZ had obeyed the rules of the NWP we would not have the situation we have now. If it was not for GZ we would not have the situation we have now. jmo

I would like to know exactly what Z told LE when the police arrived on the scene. I wonder if Z pointedly mentioned SYG either then, or when he was taken to the police station, or both.

I would also like to see a syllabus of any and all of Z's classes that relate in any way to law enforcement. If applicable, what was he taught about SYG, how should an officer react, etc.

 

[impatientredhead]

Totally agree! And to add to that thought, yesterday on Prime News, the loud mouthed blonde female attorney (I keep forgetting her name - it's NOT NG lol) that is often on the panel made this analogy in discussing the SYG law:

If a man runs out onto a speedway during a race, he is not allowed to shoot the driver of a vehicle about to run him over and claim SYG - that he used deadly force because his life was in danger - because he put himself in that position by entering the speedway.

IMHO, same applies to GZ. Had he never gotten out of his truck to follow TM, as the dispatcher told him not to do, he wouldn't have been put into a position, however the "fight" really went down, to use deadly force. He put himself into that position - even knowing that LE was on it's way.

The analogy doesn't work legally because you have no legal standing to be on the race track. GZ was not committing a crime walking in the rain that night anymore than TM was.

I personally believe you should not have to retreat in your own home, but I think outside of your home retreating should be mandatory if it is an option elsewhere.

 

[LambChop]

I will have to study that further. I'm critically, directionally challenged and I'm having a hard time comprehending this info. It all comes from the police report, including the position of the body ?
I'd read that TM's dad was describing the location of the body but I didn't see it in the report. Does the report have a diagram ?

Both SFD and SPD reports give an address of TM's location which is about 3 to 4 houses down from the cut through path where GZ claims TM attacked him. The person living at this address gave a statement that TM's body was lying in the grass right off her back porch area. GZ's statement is not consistent with what GZ claims happened. GZ claims he was cutting through to the next street (Retreat View Cir) for an address and was on his way back on that path when TM attacked him from behind. Yet TM's body was found in a different location from where GZ claims to have been attacked. jmo

 

[gxm]

Totally agree! And to add to that thought, yesterday on Prime News, the loud mouthed blonde female attorney (I keep forgetting her name - it's NOT NG lol) that is often on the panel made this analogy in discussing the SYG law:

If a man runs out onto a speedway during a race, he is not allowed to shoot the driver of a vehicle about to run him over and claim SYG - that he used deadly force because his life was in danger - because he put himself in that position by entering the speedway.

IMHO, same applies to GZ. Had he never gotten out of his truck to follow TM, as the dispatcher told him not to do, he wouldn't have been put into a position, however the "fight" really went down, to use deadly force. He put himself into that position - even knowing that LE was on it's way.

I'm not sure about that analogy. A person who runs onto a speedway during a race has the reasonable expectation that he will be run over. A citizen following another citizen for whatever reason, whether they find that person suspicious or whether they just want to ask them where they bought their jacket, has the reasonable expectation to not be attacked. Further, GZ claims he had already "left the speedway" and was no longer following TM. He claims to have been walking back to his car.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[Dr.Fessel]

funny, I had the same thought about one of the female 911 callers. She sounded completely loaded to me. Then I paid attention to the dispatcher's voice and she also sounded a little slow, but it wasn't so pronounced. That made me wonder whether it's just the recordings. I didn't notice for GZ, but not saying it wasn't there, too. I just didn't notice it until I listed to that woman's call and wasn't listening for it when I was listening to him. I was listening for the alleged racial slur at the time.

This recording is not slowed or anything and you can hear Zimmerman slur two words plane as day, bessssssss for best at 5 seconds into the call and then trushk for truck 3:19. At 2:53 he tells the dispatcher his phone number then one minute later at 3:53 he forgets he already told the dispatcher his phone number. IMO all signs of drinking and should have been tested.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=channel"]Trayvon Martin News [SHOCKING FULL] Murder Caught on Tape | Killed By George Zimmerman 911 Call # 1 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Isabelle]

One relatively minor point is the 911 call was connected at 7:09:34 pm. The shot that killed TM can be heard 41 seconds into another 911 call that began at 7:16 pm for a time of 7:16:41 when Trayvon was shot.

That's a difference of 7 minutes and 7 seconds, not 8 minutes. Another factor to consider is that for the first 2:07 of the call, TM is walking in full view of Mr. Zimmerman. He started running at 2:07 into the call per GZ for a clock time of 7:11:41, exactly 5 minutes before he was shot and killed.

Your point being that why didn't he make it home has certain possibilities to consider, such as, what if someone was waiting in ambush down this long sidewalk?

What if TM lost sight of his pursuer and started walking?

What if that someone had lived there longer than a few days, and knew enough to know he could run the path in red, himself?

I'm not saying that's what happened, mind you, but what if it did? A forced march back to a vehicle would start explaining how the body could be found where this dispatcher says, wouldn't it?

"Lying in the grass....in the back yard of 2831 Retreatview Circle"

Trayvon Martin's Body Location 2 Per Sanford Fire and Rescue - YouTube

Other than that, I can't think of too many reasons, myself, that TM didn't make it home with his Skittles and tea.

CP, do you know how far from the trash can was TM's body?

 

[LynnM]

There was a witness who said TM was on top of GZ and hitting him.

There were also witnesses which saw the two scuffling on the ground and witnesses who saw GZ on top of Trayvon. No one saw the initial assault. Zimmerman says TM attacked him but he could have grabbed Trayvon to detain him and Trayvon fought back.

I told my daughter at that age to run away if she saw someone following her (which Travyon did) and if that person caught her to fight with all she had because the statistics show that if you are abducted, you are overwhelming likely to be killed. I told her to make her stand and not allow herself to be dragged into a car. My scenario of a frightened Trayvon defending himself seems more likely to me given that Trayvon ran away from GZ and TM's girlfriend says he told her that he was being followed by a suspicious person. Zimmerman's scenario has Trayvon running away and then changing his mind and wanting to fight where as GZ showed consistent concern that the 'suspicious' TM would get away. If you believe the girlfriend (I do), then she heard the first part of the confrontation in which TM asked "Why are you following me?" and GZ answered "Why are you here?" which doesn't sound like Martin had been sneaking up behind George which would have been hard to do since he was talking to the girlfriend the whole time, as confirmed by cell phone records. I believe it was about a minute later that Zimmerman shot TM.

By the way, this is my first post here! I am so glad to find a civil discussion florum.

 

[Isabelle]

I don't know what classes GZ was taking. The Orlando Sentinel reported on March 25, 2012 the Seminole State College expelled GZ for saftey reasons.

K, thanks.

 

[mercuriod]

No one is going to like this post and I will go on record saying I don't believe the shooting was in anyway morally defensible.

BUT legally GZ only has to "believe" himself or another to be harms way. The previous calls to the police, the previous history of following "suspects" can be spun as defense. GZ was not a gun waving lunatic during any of those incidents, never had a physical altercation with any of them. Police and witnesses place GZ on his back TM on top of him. A jury only has to conclude that GZ was in fear for his life, not that in hindsight turns out he wasn't in danger. The jury doesn't have to agree that TM was a threat, only that at the time he pulled the trigger GZ "believed" it.

If they go to trial and lose to a SYG defense the state has to pay GZs legal bills and expenses. Justified shooting provides against civil liability as well. It is in the financial best interest of a lot of people and organization for this to be a justified shooting.

No actually it goes a little further - it is what a "reasonable" person would believe to be a threat.

 

[Bottle Cap]

I'm not sure about that analogy. A person who runs onto a speedway during a race has the reasonable expectation that he will be run over. A citizen following another citizen for whatever reason, whether they find that person suspicious or whether they just want to ask them where they bought their jacket, has the reasonable expectation to not be attacked. Further, GZ claims he had already "left the speedway" and was no longer following TM. He claims to have been walking back to his car.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I don't agree with the bolded part (BBM). If your perception is that someone's presence is enough of a problem to warrant a call to 911, your perception is also necessarily that the person is some sort of danger - to themselves, to others, to property. Otherwise you'd not bother calling 911. 911 is for emergencies, GZ perceived an emergency.

 

[mercuriod]

There were also witnesses which saw the two scuffling on the ground and witnesses who saw GZ on top of Trayvon. No one saw the initial assault. Zimmerman says TM attacked him but he could have grabbed Trayvon to detain him and Trayvon fought back.

I told my daughter at that age to run away if she saw someone following her (which Travyon did) and if that person caught her to fight with all she had because the statistics show that if you are abducted, you are overwhelming likely to be killed. I told her to make her stand and not allow herself to be dragged into a car. My scenario of a frightened Trayvon defending himself seems more likely to me given that Trayvon ran away from GZ and TM's girlfriend says he told her that he was being followed by a suspicious person. Zimmerman's scenario has Trayvon running away and then changing his mind and wanting to fight where as GZ showed consistent concern that the 'suspicious' TM would get away. If you believe the girlfriend (I do), then she heard the first part of the confrontation in which TM asked "Why are you following me?" and GZ answered "Why are you here?" which doesn't sound like Martin had been sneaking up behind George which would have been hard to do since he was talking to the girlfriend the whole time, as confirmed by cell phone records. I believe it was about a minute later that Zimmerman shot TM.

By the way, this is my first post here! I am so glad to find a civil discussion florum.

:tyou: & :wagon:

 

[impatientredhead]

No actually it goes a little further - it is what a "reasonable" person would believe to be a threat.

Florida

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[20]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.