17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[tehcloser]

I call my oldest GS punk when we are picking at each other....buttttttttt, when you add the f'ing in front of it - it becomes horrible, awful, etc.

 

[LambChop]

I'm at the point I don't think GZ followed during his call to SPD. When I was listening to his call, shortly after the dispatcher said, "Alright sir what is your name?" and GZ answers, "George…He ran." I stopped hearing the wind noises and didn't hear them again during the call. The only odd background noises I heard after that point were the odd clicking noises that could be the dispatcher typing, some sort of safety catch or some other noise we haven't figured out.

Lamb Chop came up with a possibility - what if GZ drove around that block in his car, trying to spot TM between the buildings? If TM had headed straight back to his soon to be step mother's townhouse, but as he neared the end of the block, he sees the weird guy who had spooked him before, TM could have doubled back down the middle of the block.

GZ could have seen TM turn and driven down the other side of the block to cut off TM again. If it was then that GZ parks, and runs out to stop this "punk" (or what ever insulting work GZ actually said), this would fit your timeline that had TM home safe.

This scenario seems to have some possibilities. Do we know where GZ's car was parked when LE arrived and what direction it was pointed?

IMO, JOM, etc. With input from Concerned Papa and Lamb Chop, of course.

Didn't the dispatcher ask GZ if he was following TM? Dispatch didn't ask if he was on foot, did he?????? So maybe GZ was following him with the car and the reason he eventually got out of the car may be because he could not find TM and decided to track him where he lost him, then found him behind he buildings. jmo

 

[csziggy]

I may have missed it. Do we know this is where TM's phone was found?

If TM's phone has been found, I would love to see a link about it! So far I've seen nothing solid about where that phone is.

 

[Ironhorse]

<modsnip>

This was in reference to whether the word C***s was said... The enhanced sound track sounds as if Zimmerman was saying 'Cold'... It was very cool that evening and with the rain it made it feel even colder. You've got to remember that in Florida people start dressing as if they was on a polar expedition once the temps start dropping below 60 degrees...

 

[tehcloser]

I have to wonder why the phone needed to disappear IF it did? I wonder if someone was worried there could be a video or something on it?

 

[LambChop]

I think they have every right in the world to speak out - do they need to discuss specific details? I don't think so - I'd rather hear the results of the investigation. But to say they all need to stop talking on GZ's side is saying only one side needs to be heard from. IMO

I don't think Crump expected anyone to speak out and call them on their rhetoric <modsnip>. Their ace in the hole is not looking so good anymore. IMO

Oh, I do, too. I was talking about how people view what they are saying and I don't think it's helping GZ. I believe they are making things worse. The letter sent by the Z family speaks volumes to me and gives us a little insight into why GZ reacts the way he does to certain situations. jmo

 

[highflyer]

Oh, I do, too. I was talking about how people view what they are saying and I don't think it's helping GZ. I believe they are making things worse. The letter sent by the Z family speaks volumes to me and gives us a little insight into why GZ reacts the way he does to certain situations. jmo

Are we sure that was sent by the Zimmerman family? It could of been sent by anybody.

 

[csziggy]

There is a super target with a big grocery store in it. This is actually the biggest grocery around there besides Sam's.
JMO

From a message upthread:

It's a Super Target. It's located very nearby in the Marketplace at Seminole Towne Center, 1201 WP Ball Blvd at Towne Center Blvd. Sunday hours are 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. It has FluShot, Pharmacy, Photo Center, Fresh Grocery, Wine Available, Starbucks, Optical and George goes grocery shopping every Sunday night at that time. (According to his father, Robert, Sr.)

Looking up the location I find the Marketplace at Seminole Towne Center with Super Target, Sports Authority, Marshall’s, DSW, Old Navy, Cost Plus World Market, Petco, Factory Card & Party Outlet, Dress Barn, and Kirkland's.
http://www.weingarten.com/retail/property/0527-231/

On most of the aerial maps of the area, you can see the buildings of the shopping center just to the north of 417. To get there you would leave the subdivision, drive towards where the 7-Eleven is but turn north before you get to the 7-Eleven.

 

[lisalei321]

I have to wonder why the phone needed to disappear IF it did? I wonder if someone was worried there could be a video or something on it?

That's a good question, I set up a shortcut on my phone that turns on the video camera, without having to fumble through all the screens.

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

 

[LambChop]

Are we sure that was sent by the Zimmerman family? It could of been sent by anybody.

Have they denied it?? Haven't heard anything from them to date. jmo

 

[Boytwnmom]

not because he was just thinking randomly about burglaries-it's important to know that was his thought sequence-burglaries wasn't the essential element or object of the call, the black kid was-What made him call the police? The black kid who, when he saw him, made him immediately conclude he was a burglar, of course and he was going to get him and not let him get away like the other a%$holes did.

Correct. He does not start the call to LE saying "we had a lot of burglaries committed by black guys." He only mentions burglaries. Crime in the area, not TM's skin color, was the basis for GZ's suspicion.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[rossva]

True, but since Martin is one of the two victims, and a minor, we aren't allowed to sleuth him to see what he may have done.

The best way to tell what a person will do, is to look at what they have done...JMO

 

[LambChop]

not because he was just thinking randomly about burglaries-it's important to know that was his thought sequence-burglaries wasn't the essential element or object of the call, the black kid was-What made him call the police? The black kid who, when he saw him, made him immediately conclude he was a burglar, of course and he was going to get him and not let him get away like the other a%$holes did.

GZ was so convincing they sent out a narcotics officer to do the job of a homocide detective???? jmo

 

[highflyer]

Have they denied it?? Haven't heard anything from them to date. jmo

I don't know. When I read it I was doubtful that it was sent by the Zimmerman's.

 

[Adrienne37]

Have they denied it?? Haven't heard anything from them to date. jmo

Didn't Zimmerman, Sr. talk about the letter on Hannity's program last night? I can't understand why he would discuss it if it hadn't been sent by the family.

Myself, I have absolutely no doubt that it was the Zimmerman's.



~jmo~

 

[Isabelle]

Last I heard, the family didn't have it, and the PD says they don't...

No links, so JMHO

ETA...TM's phone

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

Wonder which is which? Could someone have disposed of it? Not that that would serve any purpose.

 

[vlpate]

If that were true there would be a contract stating he can't carry a gun. Half the owners do not live there I doubt if they had an agreement with GZ. It sounds like insurance is a big issue in this community. HOA's tend to be very structured and their agreements are usually drawn up by attorney's. Isn't GZ's condo owned by the bank??? As a leasee GZ's is not part of the HOA. Asking someone to do that would required them to be bonded. And LE stated that GZ was just listed as a contact person for administrative issues, getting meetings together, getting questions answered. Patrolling is not part of the NWP. They are just suppose to watch and report.

I would think if this were true we would have heard that by now, in particular from Mr. Taaffe. jmo

HOA's work differently in this situation - it's complicated because they sold half and rented the rest.

I've hired courtesy officers for over 2 decades on tons of properties. They sign an ancillary lease addendum and a waiver that releases the property of liability should the guidelines not be followed. In lieu of free or reduced rent, they will walk the property "x" amount of hours in the interest of protecting the structures and amenities only - they are not there for the protection of residents, employees, contractors, or visitors to the property. Residents are told this as well, call 911 in an emergency.

They must be a police officer in most cases (liability). If they are not a police officer, in no way are they permitted to carry a weapon, period. Officers are told not to carry their weapon while walking the properties, but it's highly doubtful they leave their gun at home. I've never had an incident anything close to what happened in this case. Courtesy officers follow people who they deem suspicious all the time - usually without incident - they just want to see where someone is going and what they are up to, if it looks like a crime in progress, they call LE

In spite of the accusations of stalking and vigilantism - GZ was just following/watching - routine. Every day of the week there are courtesy officers in thousands of apartment communities following someone they don't recognize through a property to make sure they belong or they are not up to something. They don't ask for ID until they seem suspicious. I see the same thing here - he was just watching.

The problem here was the gun should have been left in the car and GZ should have stayed in his truck to wait for LE, especially after TM started running. At that point GZ had to know the situation could turn dangerous, he needed to wait.

One other thing - the 46 phone calls to LE, in most cases a courtesy officer for a community is a cop, and they just call their buddies to do a drive-by or they take care of it themselves. GZ is not an officer so he couldn't do anything more than call LE. ALL 46 times he did just that.

JMO

 

[LambChop]

True, but since Martin is one of the two victims, and a minor, we aren't allowed to sleuth him to see what he may have done.

Does it matter, he wasn't doing anything wrong when GZ called LE. It's not a crime to walk home, it was not a crime to take a short cut, it was not a crime to have something in your hand (even if GZ didn't know what it was), it's not a crime to be dressed the way TM was, it's not a crime to put a hood on when it's raining, it's not even a crime to run when it's raining, it's not a crime to be black. But yet, GZ used all those excuses to paint a picture that somehow LE should expect TM to be in the process of committing a crime. There was no other reason for the call to police. None. It use to be illegal to yell FIRE in a theater. Essentially isn't this what GZ did. Caused a panic within himself when there was no fire, no thief, no criminal activity, etc. jmo

 

[Boytwnmom]

was TM wailing for his life while held at gunpoint I think GZ's story implodes. IMO, that person wailing was not the assailant and was not engaged in any threat to GZ and there was plenty of time for GZ to DECIDE what to do, whether to shoot and kill him or de-escalate the encounter-for whatever reason he decided to shoot.

IMO, TM pissed GZ off. I think GZ grabbed TM, maybe by his arm to ensure he couldn't get away-I think TM may have flailed his other arm, maybe landed a punch...maybe, but not a very good one, just enough to REALLY tick GZ off and he then, if he hadn't already, pulled his gun and pointed it at TM from a very close position and let it sink in to TM that he was going to die and then he pulled the trigger. Or maybe the whole thing was done with the gun drawn and TM trying to get away while GZ hung onto him.

I don't think anyone of the witnesses can really accurately describe what happened-I think the best bet is forensics and the precise timeline that will be established. I just hope it's enough. The description of GZ after the shooting was not of an agitated and distraught individual who was engaged in a battle which makes sense in this context. There was no big fight. The more I think about it the more I feel it was like an execution with GZ feeling justified because TM was one of those a%$holes that had previously gotten away so he wasn't doing anything wrong in eliminating this threat. If GZ had ever just thought or considered that maybe TM was just a regular teenager nothing would have happened. But to GZ, TM was just a type, a prototype out of central casting running amok around his pristine kingdom and GZ was going to set things right this time.

Even if GZ had no intent when he got out of his vehicle that 40+ seconds of pleading wailing cries shows premeditation. During that 40 or more seconds, GZ had every chance to choose between shooting and not shooting TM. He shot a teen who was begging for his life.

Up until that point, I am willing to give GZ the benefit of doubt. His intent was not clear and his exact actions unknown from the end of his call to SPD three minutes before the shot. But for that last forty seconds while TM was screaming for help, GZ was deciding whether or not to commit murder.

For both TM and GZ that forty seconds must have seemed like a lifetime - for TM it was.

IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[uvamerica]

I don't know. When I read it I was doubtful that it was sent by the Zimmerman's.

GZ's dad mentioned the letter on Hannity last night.
I just found this too..

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...sherman-ware-justin-collison-robert-zimmerman