17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[Sensei]

Right. But looking at someone doesn't "force" them to move. Watching someone who is in public doesn't constitute kidnapping, or any crime.

But watching someone and following someone, especially someone who has attempted to evade you and continuing to do so until you make them fearful of their safety and their life DOES give them the right to react with appropriate force...and I will say once again IMO JMHO and stuff

Trayvon Martin did NOT have LESS rights than George Zimmerman on the night in question...so maybe the question should be, how long should Trayvon have to be followed, and watched and made afraid? How long after the person who has watched you and followed you and made you afraid and is now confronting you do you wait before you decide that you will exercise whatever force necessary to secure your safety and your life?

Do you actually wait until they put their hands on you? Do you wait until they have tried to stop you...or do you punch them and try to run away?

There is a not so fine line between following someone and openly following them on a lonely street at night in the dark and making them afraid, and to do that and then claim self defense is offensive IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[jaded cat]

Agreed... The Law says:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force ~
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

In other words should Zimmerman be acquitted the taxpayers will have to reimburse him for attorney fees, court cost, loss of income and other incurred expenses. Plus he'll now have a civil suit in which he can file suit against the State for violating a law he was protected under...IMO

MO'M took this case pro bono so in theory, there should be no attorney fees to reimburse if GZ is not convicted.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.freep.com/article/20120424/NEWS07/120424027/George-Zimmerman-makes-bail-goes-into-hiding

He probably won't be seen in public until he testifies at his trial next year, his lawyer, Mark O'Mara, told ABC News. O'Mara said he would waive Zimmerman's right to appear at his arraignment May 8 out of concern for his safety.

 

[cityslick]

GZ was considerably larger than TM. Height isn't the issue, weight is, as evinced in weight classes for boxing, etc. GZ might have been two weight classes above TM, in fact, so the only person who could/should feel a fear owing to size is TM.

But let's not forget that GZ had been a bouncer. How reasonable would it be for him to be deathly afraid of a skinny kid, especially when he was armed and had left his car to engage him? Not reasonable at all.

I thought the difference was only 20-25 pounds. I think TM had at least 3-4 inches on him.

 

[Boytwnmom]

just like they wanted. If the integrity of the initial investigation is called into question then it can present problems as to what part of the evidence can be believed. The defense can try to impeach any and all evidence based upon the lack of proper procedure being followed. Hopefully the state can rectify any damage as they are well aware of what happened. I think that's part of why AC couldn't really criticize the police-to some extent they are left to deal with what the police did initially as everything they can do personally is after the fact. I think the state can likely show that all errors were in favor of the defendant. But it is interesting to try a case like this where everyone (well, almost everyone) knows the police screwed up but the subsequent prosecutor is stuck with them and their work so to speak.

I have doubts that the prosecution will point fingers or blame at the police, but that is just my opinion. I do agree with others that is where some fault lies because they too quickly, without a proper investigation believed GZ. jmo

 

[HiHater]

When you say you thought Z tried to detain Trayvon, you did guess, in fact.

It's anyone's guess what happened - the only living person who knows is Z.

The person asked for clarification as to how I think GZ tried to detain Trayvon. I'm not going to GUESS the logistics or procedures behind that. Is that a little more clear to you?

All anyone on this board is doing is guessing, I think that's obvious.

 

[Marshmallow]

I thought the difference was only 20-25 pounds. I think TM had at least 3-4 inches on him.

being a wrestling mom, that 20 - 30 pounds would be appx. 2 weight classes to me.

 

[Sensei]

If someone who is larger than you is beating on you, I'd say that is reasonable grounds for believing that you are in grave danger.

Well, I would believe that. Perhaps you might believe something else.

I will only be able to believe that Trayvon was beating on anyone when the autopsey results are released and we can find out about actual damage to Trayvons hands and knuckles....If you hit someone hard enough to split their lip, then the impact should also split the skin on your hands since knuckles are a boney prominence and just as hard as jawbone or teeth....

With rumors being that there was no indication on Trayvon's hands or elsewhere on him that there had been a struggle I will find the "he was beating on me" story to be too hard to swallow IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[cityslick]

But watching someone and following someone, especially someone who has attempted to evade you and continuing to do so until you make them fearful of their safety and their life DOES give them the right to react with appropriate force...and I will say once again IMO JMHO and stuff

Trayvon Martin did NOT have LESS rights than George Zimmerman on the night in question...so maybe the question should be, how long should Trayvon have to be followed, and watched and made afraid? How long after the person who has watched you and followed you and made you afraid and is now confronting you do you wait before you decide that you will exercise whatever force necessary to secure your safety and your life?

Do you actually wait until they put their hands on you? Do you wait until they have tried to stop you...or do you punch them and try to run away?

There is a not so fine line between following someone and openly following them on a lonely street at night in the dark and making them afraid, and to do that and then claim self defense is offensive IMO JMHO and stuff.

BBM

Now here is where I have a problem. Where is the evidence that TM was actively trying to evade GZ. He did tell his GF that this guy was looking at him but he would not run when his GF asked him too. The only person who said he was running was GZ. I brought it up yesterday that if he was running away from the point that GZ said so, TM should of been nowhere near him, or at least not where TM ultimately wound up because the average run speed of a human is about 14 feet per second yet his final spot was only about 100 feet from the start of the cut through. GZ was on the phone with dispatch for 3 minutes after he told dispatch he saw TM 'running'.

 

[Gin]

The law as written is over reaching, but in all honesty to your question if you could make a decent case of why you "believed" at the time you were stopping a crime you very well could be immune in Florida for shooting that person in the back, even when you end up being wrong. As long as you can convince a judge first, or a jury second if that judge won't give you immunity, that it was a reasonable belief at the time.

I posted several recent cases in Florida that have been given immunity. All of them involved the shooter/stabber/living one to have pursued, initiated, confronted, and frequently lied thru their teeth. All were given immunity or acquitted. One was a stabbing that the stabber pursued for a city block over a car radio, not a child, a radio...... stabbed the man, left him to bleed out, took the radios, hid the weapon, went home and went to bed, no 911 call, denied the stabbing until he saw it was on video, then said the man was armed, then admitted okay he wasn't armed, but he swung the bag of radios at my head after I chased screaming like a knife wielding lunatic (with a prior criminal history), and that bag of radios the man was defending his life with could have killed me if they hit me.

Granted immunity at his stand your ground hearing, trial dismissed. There were several crazy ones, but that those are the rulings that will determine how GZs case has to be ruled, SYG hearing, jury or appeal..... somewhere along the way he will get standing. They didn't charge him that night because this path is inevitable. The law has to be rewritten, but GZ cannot be thrown to the wolves if this how the state has been handling the cases and told their citizens thGey interpret acceptable behavior. And if GZ has a permit, wants to play pretend cop, I promise you he is aware of the SYG rulings and they probably did play into his mindset.

He has called 911 fifty times, and followed several of them, no reports of confrontations. He probably felt pretty confident that night. But the law that night is the same one that let the stabber, several shootings, and one person who ran the other one over with their car (talk about an unbalanced fight and ability to flee) walk free. GZs case is much more arguable than those.

Thanks for posting this. Your information about the possible legal ramifications (or lack of them) was shocking, and so sad.

And it's awful to think there could be a murder of any person because someone was armed, ready to shoot and uninformed.

It's just mind boggling to me that someone with a deadly weapon can potentially legally kill at will (as long as they carefully say a few magic words.) :banghead:
I believe SYG tramples on the rights of the unarmed.

 

[cityslick]

being a wrestling mom, that 20 - 30 pounds would be appx. 2 weight classes to me.

You don't think someone can take someone else out that outweighs them by 20 lbs? That's not been my experience.

 

[Aedrys]

just like they wanted. If the integrity of the initial investigation is called into question then it can present problems as to what part of the evidence can be believed. The defense can try to impeach any and all evidence based upon the lack of proper procedure being followed. Hopefully the state can rectify any damage as they are well aware of what happened. I think that's part of why AC couldn't really criticize the police-to some extent they are left to deal with what the police did initially as everything they can do personally is after the fact. I think the state can likely show that all errors were in favor of the defendant. But it is interesting to try a case like this where everyone (well, almost everyone) knows the police screwed up but the subsequent prosecutor is stuck with them and their work so to speak.

Which is why, I thought, there was a second investigation. I don't think she's just stuck with what Sanford LE did or did not do. The first investigation was over before it started. There had to be a second investigation for Corey to figure out the charges against GZ.

 

[Sensei]

BBM

Now here is where I have a problem. Where is the evidence that TM was actively trying to evade GZ. He did tell his GF that this guy was looking at him but he would not run when his GF asked him too. The only person who said he was running was GZ. I brought it up yesterday that if he was running away from the point that GZ said so, TM should of been nowhere near him, or at least not where TM ultimately wound up because the average run speed of a human is about 14 feet per second yet his final spot was only about 100 feet from the start of the cut through. GZ was on the phone with dispatch for 3 minutes after he told dispatch he saw TM 'running'.

GZ himself said he was running, that does not mean that he ran all the way home....It may mean that he ran until he was out of site behind the buildings on the sidewalk and then stopped to catch his breath and talk to his girl...he may have been only mildly apprehensive when he ran and tried to get out of GZ's site...but can you imagine the escalation of that mild apprehension to outright fear when he realized that GZ was now on foot and approaching him...Trayvon was not required to run home, he may have thought that it was all over and he was just dawdling along hanging on the sidewalk talkin to his girl so he could do so in private until confronted by the guy who had watched and followed him before....Trayvon did NOT have the requirement to go straight home, and attempt to avoid the crazy guy who had been following him, he did not have less rights or more responsibilities to avoid a confrontation than George Zimmerman did

Trayvon was found almost on his doorstep, while George was found in an area that he would NOT have been if he had not been following Trayvon, he had the right to be there but he has not explained in a logical and reasonable way exactly what he was doing there if not following Trayvon..IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Adrienne37]

Winthrop poll shows light support for Zimmerman in shooting...

Nearly 13 percent of South Carolinians polled in the latest Winthrop Poll side with George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old volunteer neighborhood watchman who shot an unarmed teenager, Trayvon Martin, in Sanford, Fla.

But 57.2 percent take the opposite stance and say that Zimmerman “acted irresponsibly and should be held accountable” for 17-year-old Martin’s death.

http://www.blufftontoday.com/blufft...light-support-zimmerman-shooting#.T5bAlqvOX2Y

 

[Adrienne37]

Poll Shows Division on Zimmerman Case, Guns..

The survey, by N.C.-based Democratic firm Public Policy Polling, shows 49 percent of Florida voters agree with the decision to charge Zimmerman, while 25 percent disagree. But Democrats and independents overwhelmingly support the decision, while Republicans narrowly oppose it.

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Poll_Shows_Division_on_Zimmerman_Case_Guns_148676555.html

 

[francie]

I think it's 'interesting' that O'Mara wants George out of state to be safe, doesn't the entire country know what he looks like by now? And I thought O'Mara needed him out of jail to help work on his case, but being in another state can't be convenient for defense meetings? George may need to lay low but saying he had to go out of state for safety is just another charade for drama & O'Mara media interviews, IMO.

I don’t think it matters where George is living as long as he shows up for court, although the public would be safer if he were in jail imo. Hopefully he won’t kill anyone else while he's out, it's extremely easy to get a gun & he could harm himself or someone else... he's allowed to be out & about until curfew, what if he manages to buy a gun, goes out and is recognized & taunted, gets angry & shoots/kills another victim? I think he’s a loose cannon after killing Trayvon for no reason, he had no “probable cause” to even follow Trayvon and he’d kill again without hesitation imo. Scary. All JMO of course.
:moo:

 

[cityslick]

GZ himself said he was running, that does not mean that he ran all the way home....It may mean that he ran until he was out of site behind the buildings on the sidewalk and then stopped to catch his breath and talk to his girl...he may have been only mildly apprehensive when he ran and tried to get out of GZ's site...but can you imagine the escalation of that mild apprehension to outright fear when he realized that GZ was now on foot and approaching him...Trayvon was not required to run home, he may have thought that it was all over and he was just dawdling along hanging on the sidewalk talkin to his girl so he could do so in private until confronted by the guy who had watched and followed him before....Trayvon did NOT have the requirement to go straight home, and attempt to avoid the crazy guy who had been following him, he did not have less rights or more responsibilities to avoid a confrontation than George Zimmerman did

Trayvon was found almost on his doorstep, while George was found in an area that he would NOT have been if he had not been following Trayvon, he had the right to be there but he has not explained in a logical and reasonable way exactly what he was doing there if not following Trayvon..IMO JMHO and stuff.

According to Concerned P's estimations, it's likely that TM was already at the cut through by the time GZ said 'he's running'. He needed to take a few steps and he would already be between the two building. From that point, it would taken him 14 seconds to get to his doorstep. By the time his GF called, he could of technically already been in front of his house talking to her. But was he actively trying to 'evade' GZ or did he just want to get out of sight. I think of 'evade' is running all over the place, away from the area until someone can't find you anymore. Not running for seconds then stopping and talking on the phone for a few minutes.

GZ's entire story has been brought to question, why when he says 'he's running' that it's automatically assumed as a fact?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Were TM's parents out for the evening when this happened?
Not that it matters but when I was looking at some of the maps last night of how close TM was to the door to home, I was just curious if he was going back to an empty house.

That is a lot of commotion in the neighborhood to not draw your attention, especially as a parent of a teen I would think. And when they called in the morning to say he was missing there has not been any mention of the previous night incident? Although obviously LE was right out there with the photos taken the night before.

Yes, Trayvon's father and his girlfriend had gone to dinner. I think there was another child at home, the girlfriend's boy who had asked Trayvon to get him some skittles and tea during half-time of the game they were watching. It's hard to find a link with all the details in one place.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-24/trayvon-martin-friends/53744670/1

Martin had gone up to Sanford to visit his father's fiance, who lived there with her young son. Friends said Martin regarded the boy as his little brother and had been looking forward to watching the NBA All-Star game with him that weekend.

On that Sunday, Martin went out to get candy and an iced tea at a convenience store and was walking back to the fiancee's townhouse. Zimmerman, 28, spotted him and told a police dispatcher: "This guy looks like he is up to no good — he is on drugs or something."

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p4/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html#storylink=cpy

Meanwhile, police fingerprinted the dead teen, who carried no ID. He had never been arrested, so 12 hours passed before anyone knew his name.

“I have never seen a crime scene cleaned up so fast,” Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, told The Miami Herald. He came home that night just before 11 p.m. and saw no trace of a crime. It was not until he called police the next morning that a major crimes detective went to the townhouse where his girlfriend lives to break the news.

Zimmerman, in the meantime, had been questioned by police and released without charges.


http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html

"I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

The next morning, when he woke up, Tracy realized that Trayvon had not returned home.

"I started making calls, and I reached my nephew," Martin says. "He said he hadn't seen Trayvon. Then I really started getting worried. So I called the Sheriff's department to file a missing persons report. I let them know it hadn't been 24 hours, but it was unusual for Trayvon not to return home."

 

[lillygator]

JMO/IMO

GZ called in a suspicious person. The question is, what was it about Trayvon that made the armed volunteer patrolman suspicious?

Iced tea? Skittles? No, I think we can agree that would be absurd.

Hooded sweatshirt? Travon's race? Bingo....and here's where GZ paints himself into a corner with profiling.

I don't buy that really - I live in a neighborhood with a cul de sac - if you get in there, you are lost - I know who walks around in the evenings and it would be easy to spot someone new to the area....I would definitely be suspicious of a person walking in the rain in a hoodie - since we mainly have families with young children walking or adults jogging. GZ was probably even more in tune to who was normally out and about in his neighborhood since he is a watchman. and I don't understand why people keep saying he was profiling his race....didn't the 911 make it clear that he didn't know he was black to begin with?

You don't think someone can take someone else out that outweighs them by 20 lbs? That's not been my experience.

doesn't anyone watch cops? the skinny ones are always the ones scrapping - they always beat the big ones!!!

 

[grammieto5]

No, it is not enough, not in Florida and not the way the law is written and how it has been applied.

By the law I will presume you are talking about the SYG law. What a crazy law this is, there will be many sides to this case because of this law. BUT, one thing is for certain, Trayvon is DEAD, no longer alive, the reason being GZ shot him. GZ has confessed to doing this, I pray the jury will know of this and hopefully the evidence from Trayvon's autopsy will prove GZ was not justified in ending Trayvons life.