2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[AZlawyer]

The Jb interview was closed due to off topic post, however it may be appropriate here. The interesting part to me, and I take anything the defense says very seriously, is that Jb was coming out of a death penalty hearing and Kb asked him a completely off topic question about the duct tape. Why is the duct tape suddenly important to Kb? Jb reitterated that they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape as was said on 48 hours. He said that police officers theories are not accepted as established fact. Furthermore, he went on to say that he cannot comment on sealed documents and photos. This one raised my meter. Always wondered why Csi Bloise and Steve Hansons reports were missing. I do wonder if the disqualified Judge sealed those documents/reports due to how graphic they were in nature. Thank you JB and KB. We now know it is the defense strategy to dispute the location of the duct tape and that they do not agree with the police officers theories, and that now we know that the disqualified Judge sealed very important documents. My interpretation, My opinion.

What was sealed were the photos of the remains, pursuant to Florida law.

 

[Macushla]

The Jb interview was closed due to off topic post, however it may be appropriate here. The interesting part to me, and I take anything the defense says very seriously, is that Jb was coming out of a death penalty hearing and Kb asked him a completely off topic question about the duct tape. Why is the duct tape suddenly important to Kb? Jb reitterated that they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape as was said on 48 hours. He said that police officers theories are not accepted as established fact. Furthermore, he went on to say that he cannot comment on sealed documents and photos. This one raised my meter. Always wondered why Csi Bloise and Steve Hansons reports were missing. I do wonder if the disqualified Judge sealed those documents/reports due to how graphic they were in nature. Thank you JB and KB. We now know it is the defense strategy to dispute the location of the duct tape and that they do not agree with the police officers theories, and that now we know that the disqualified Judge sealed very important documents. My interpretation, My opinion.

BBM: The duct tape was not off topic. If you recall, the State said that because new facts had come to light, they were going to amend the indictment and ask for the death penalty. Ms. Lyon stated more than once in this hearing that the defense had NO IDEA what new facts the State was referring to when they re introduced the death penalty. The duct tape was one of the new facts, (it amazed me that Ms. Lyon could not have figured that out) and therefore was not an off topic question. I am sure the reporter was wondering, as a number of us were, how the defense could not understand that the duct tape was important. I won't even go into where and how it was found, just that it WAS found with Caylee's remains.

 

[Tulessa]

I thought it might be a good thing to post what JA said on December the 11 concerning the duct tape. Mods feel free to remove if need be. I appreciate all the hard work that's went into this thread and a very special thanks to BJB.




Her killer prepared some substance in advance that would render physically unable to resist, administered the substance, awaited its effect and then methodically applied three pieces of duct tape to completely cut off the flow of air through her mouth or her nose and let nature take its course," prosecutor Jeff Ashton said. "At least Caylee wouldn't have any fear. How would jurors apply those facts to the law the court will give them? If she was physically restrained, her killer would have to have restrained her arms by some means, applying tape while she was conscious. As the killer looked into her face, maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied -- first one piece, then two, then three -- so that no breath was possible. Could Caylee have understood what was happening to her? Did she try to resist? Could her killer see the fear in her eyes as the tape was applied? These are questions only jurors will be able to answer in this case."

 

[Tulessa]

The above statement always breaks my heart when I read it. ;(

 

[notthatsmart]

What was sealed were the photos of the remains, pursuant to Florida law.

I hope you could help me. Where would I find that information? Is there a place that shows what was sealed?

Also, do you have any idea why we did not get a report from CSI Bloise or Steve Hanson?

Jb said he would not comment on documents and photos that are sealed. This is why I am asking these questions.

 

[LambChop]

Those pictures were ordered sealed by JS during court. You may be able to find it on some of the old hearing videos after 12/11/08. Why would there be a report when it was done in open court??

 

[notthatsmart]

I thought it might be a good thing to post what JA said on December the 11 concerning the duct tape. Mods feel free to remove if need be. I appreciate all the hard work that's went into this thread and a very special thanks to BJB.




Her killer prepared some substance in advance that would render physically unable to resist, administered the substance, awaited its effect and then methodically applied three pieces of duct tape to completely cut off the flow of air through her mouth or her nose and let nature take its course," prosecutor Jeff Ashton said. "At least Caylee wouldn't have any fear. How would jurors apply those facts to the law the court will give them? If she was physically restrained, her killer would have to have restrained her arms by some means, applying tape while she was conscious. As the killer looked into her face, maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied -- first one piece, then two, then three -- so that no breath was possible. Could Caylee have understood what was happening to her? Did she try to resist? Could her killer see the fear in her eyes as the tape was applied? These are questions only jurors will be able to answer in this case."

Can I ask where you got that statement? Is it a news story? It appears to be out of context. I remember him saying in the beginning that Kc was assumed innocent. I thought the whole thing was a theory, this appears to be a statement of fact. thanks

 

[notthatsmart]

Those pictures were ordered sealed by JS during court. You may be able to find it on some of the old hearing videos after 12/11/08. Why would there be a report when it was done in open court??

I am looking for an order to seal, not a report. I am looking for reports from Csi Bloise and Steve Hanson. thanks

 

[AZlawyer]

I hope you could help me. Where would I find that information? Is there a place that shows what was sealed?

Also, do you have any idea why we did not get a report from CSI Bloise or Steve Hanson?

Jb said he would not comment on documents and photos that are sealed. This is why I am asking these questions.

There was a hearing regarding the photos of the body. Perhaps a search of threads for "autopsy photos" would bring up the information. This same law is the reason that we get black boxes in the released documents instead of photos of the hairs that were tested.

Do you have lists of the investigators involved and those who provided reports, so we can compare them? I don't know if everyone at a crime scene is always required to provide an individual report, although I would certainly like to see them!

None of the crime scene reports were sealed, though. Things can't get sealed without some "tracks" being left in the court record--motion, order, etc.

 

[AZlawyer]

I am looking for an order to seal, not a report. I am looking for reports from Csi Bloise and Steve Hanson. thanks

Just to clarify, we definitely do have report(s) from Bloise. I assumed you meant a report specifically relating to the recovery of the remains.

 

[RR0004]

Can I ask where you got that statement? Is it a news story? It appears to be out of context. I remember him saying in the beginning that Kc was assumed innocent. I thought the whole thing was a theory, this appears to be a statement of fact. thanks

...and yet the defense remains clueless as to what the State considers aggravating factors.

 

[BondJamesBond]

DO discuss the tape.

DO bump other threads (e.g. the hearing re: autopsy photos if you want to discuss what was sealed).

DON'T attack other members.

 

[belle3]

After scrutinizing the high-def, blown up photos, I think Q63-Q64-Q104 is a matched sequence. However, neither Q62 nor Q66 can go in front of this sequence. I suppose either Q62 or Q66 could go after Q104, given the damage to that end of Q104, but then whichever one you pick, the other one can't go after that (i.e., Q62-Q66 and Q66-Q62 both don't work). So at some point a piece got used on something else or thrown away (e.g., if it got stuck to itself).

If we want to keep things as simple as possible (1 missing piece rather than 2 or more), we should assume Q63-Q64-Q104-Q62[orQ66]-Missing Piece (MP)--Q66[or Q62]. Given that Q64 was clearly placed before Q63, we should actually assume the reverse: Q66/62-MP-Q62/66-Q104-Q64-Q63. It seems pretty unlikely that Casey placed the gas can tape somewhere in the middle of taping up Caylee's face. So let's say Q66 (gas can)-MP-Q62-Q104-Q64-Q63.

Now, Casey didn't have the gas can as far as we know until June 23, and presumably taped Caylee's face before that (pre-death by June 16 or very very early in decomp process, i.e., immediately thereafter). So perhaps George put the tape on the gas can after all, even if he described it as a "sloppy job" (which it wasn't). If George ALWAYS kept tape on that vent, as he says, then presumably there was already a piece there when Casey picked it up on June 23.

I wish I had a better description of where Q62 was on the skull. I think if it were on top of (and especially if it were underneath) Q64-Q63, it would have had the same big bulge seen in those pieces, and probably would have been removed and photographed as a "set" like they were. My guess, based on the flatness and longer length of that piece, is that it went from ear to ear across the nose. On a small skull with no nose, that positioning could easily be described as being in the "mouth area" as reported at the scene, and also as being over the "nasal apertures" as reported by the ME.

The missing piece could have been another piece used by George before Casey used the tape. However, isn't it kind of odd that the mouth pieces (Q64-Q63) are LAST in the sequence above? Whether you are shutting up a live child or stemming decomp fluids from a dead child, I would think the mouth would be the first place to be taped. So I would suggest another possibility: perhaps George placed Q66 on the gas can, then Casey placed Missing Piece over Caylee's mouth and Q62 over her nose, then Casey came back and found out that Caylee had managed to remove/chew at/scrunch up Missing Piece so she could breathe, then Casey tossed Missing Piece and used Q104 around Caylee's forearms to stop her from doing that anymore, Q64 on her mouth, and Q63 diagonally and partway under her chin to keep her from moving her jaw and breathing around the edges of the tape. :furious: This would be consistent with the "fringe hairs" and possible T-shirt fibers on Q104.

But again, the chloroform lurks in the background with no clear role to play...

Which WS member was it who had a roll of The Tape? Perhaps he/she could tell us which way the logos face coming off the roll? If the tape rolls off "logo first" rather than "text first," then Q63 would have to come before Q64, in which case I would assume all the pieces were removed and lined up someone before application, since Q64 ended up under Q63 on the skull.

bbm
just wondering about the gas cans. isnt it possible that she had the gas cans. iirc i remember hearing something to the effect of le believing that the gas cans and caylee were in the car at the same time. in one of her texts to ah she mentions running out of gas two fridays in a row, being the 27th and the 20th. i do not believe we know who helped her that day and i think its because she had the gas cans that day and she picked it up the 18th, the day she was back at her parents. idk thats just my theory. what ya think?

oops just realized was kinda ot. so sorry move or delete if necessary.

 

[ynotdivein]

The missing piece could have been another piece used by George before Casey used the tape. However, isn't it kind of odd that the mouth pieces (Q64-Q63) are LAST in the sequence above? Whether you are shutting up a live child or stemming decomp fluids from a dead child, I would think the mouth would be the first place to be taped.

RSBBM. AZ I couldn't agree more--while I am a total layperson in the nefarious uses of duct tape it just doesn't make sense to tape the mouth last. (Neither "normal" nor "KC" sense in fact. It isn't practical if the victim is alive and you want to prevent noise; if the victim is asleep or your intent is to suffocate why start elsewhere than mouth/nasal cavities?)

So I would suggest another possibility: perhaps George placed Q66 on the gas can, then Casey placed Missing Piece over Caylee's mouth and Q62 over her nose, then Casey came back and found out that Caylee had managed to remove/chew at/scrunch up Missing Piece so she could breathe, then Casey tossed Missing Piece and used Q104 around Caylee's forearms to stop her from doing that anymore, Q64 on her mouth, and Q63 diagonally and partway under her chin to keep her from moving her jaw and breathing around the edges of the tape. :furious: This would be consistent with the "fringe hairs" and possible T-shirt fibers on Q104.

Just wow. If 104 were around the forearms but not connected to itself at each end this is quite plausible.

But again, the chloroform lurks in the background with no clear role to play...

Soak edge of blanket in chloroform as usual to induce "naptime," then apply Missing Piece to mouth in case of accidental early wakeup?

Which WS member was it who had a roll of The Tape? Perhaps he/she could tell us which way the logos face coming off the roll? If the tape rolls off "logo first" rather than "text first," then Q63 would have to come before Q64, in which case I would assume all the pieces were removed and lined up someone before application, since Q64 ended up under Q63 on the skull.

Agree with beach2's post above; from a marketing standpoint it makes sense that the logo would be facing the user as they pulled tape off the roll toward their body/"text-first"....

IMO and thanks AZ for the thought-provocation!

 

[MissJames]

The Jb interview was closed due to off topic post, however it may be appropriate here. The interesting part to me, and I take anything the defense says very seriously, is that Jb was coming out of a death penalty hearing and Kb asked him a completely off topic question about the duct tape. Why is the duct tape suddenly important to Kb? Jb reitterated that they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape as was said on 48 hours. He said that police officers theories are not accepted as established fact. Furthermore, he went on to say that he cannot comment on sealed documents and photos. This one raised my meter. Always wondered why Csi Bloise and Steve Hansons reports were missing. I do wonder if the disqualified Judge sealed those documents/reports due to how graphic they were in nature. Thank you JB and KB. We now know it is the defense strategy to dispute the location of the duct tape and that they do not agree with the police officers theories, and that now we know that the disqualified Judge sealed very important documents. My interpretation, My opinion.

Who is the disqualified judge you refer to in your current posts? The Honorable Judge Stan Strickland was not disqualified. The Honorable Judge Stan Strickland recused himself to stop ,what was sure to be,an onslaught of motions by the defense every time he ruled in favor of the prosecution. Is there another judge you are referring to or did you mean recused?
.

 

[logicalgirl]

RSBBM. AZ I couldn't agree more--while I am a total layperson in the nefarious uses of duct tape it just doesn't make sense to tape the mouth last. (Neither "normal" nor "KC" sense in fact. It isn't practical if the victim is alive and you want to prevent noise; if the victim is asleep or your intent is to suffocate why start elsewhere than mouth/nasal cavities?)



Just wow. If 104 were around the forearms but not connected to itself at each end this is quite plausible.



Soak edge of blanket in chloroform as usual to induce "naptime," then apply Missing Piece to mouth in case of accidental early wakeup?



Agree with beach2's post above; from a marketing standpoint it makes sense that the logo would be facing the user as they pulled tape off the roll toward their body/"text-first"....

IMO and thanks AZ for the thought-provocation!

Was checking through the thread but didn't see this question, or rather the answer to this question. Would the order matter if she ripped off four pieces before she even started? I do that even with duct tape and stick them at the edge to my arm so I can do the task faster, without having to tear off each piece.

 

[Harmony 2]

Was checking through the thread but didn't see this question, or rather the answer to this question. Would the order matter if she ripped off four pieces before she even started? I do that even with duct tape and stick them at the edge to my arm so I can do the task faster, without having to tear off each piece.

I wondered the same thing. Wouldn't it be great if the fringe hair was Casey's?

I think fringe hair is different than limb hair... :waitasec:

 

[ynotdivein]

Was checking through the thread but didn't see this question, or rather the answer to this question. Would the order matter if she ripped off four pieces before she even started? I do that even with duct tape and stick them at the edge to my arm so I can do the task faster, without having to tear off each piece.

Hi logicalgirl! This question came up earlier in this thread (post #463 and thereabouts) and AFAIK we are inconclusive about it.

I wondered the same thing. Wouldn't it be great if the fringe hair was Casey's?

I think fringe hair is different than limb hair... :waitasec:

Harmony this is from your post #101 on the "The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape found away from the remains" thread:

FBI defines fringe hair as:
Quote:
Fringe Hairs
Hairs originating from areas of the body outside those specifically designated as head or pubic are generally not suitable for significant comparison purposes. These hairs might originate from the neck, sideburns, abdomen, upper leg, and back.

Other Body Area Hairs
Axillary (underarm) hairs, chest hairs, eye hairs, and nose hairs are not routinely compared. As with limb hairs and fringe hairs, their presence may help to corroborate information obtained during an investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...0/deedric1.htm

Which to me sounds like FBI considers limb and fringe hair to be different animals...

 

[Harmony 2]

Hi logicalgirl! This question came up earlier in this thread (post #463 and thereabouts) and AFAIK we are inconclusive about it.



Harmony this is from your post #101 on the "The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape found away from the remains" thread:

FBI defines fringe hair as:
Quote:
Fringe Hairs
Hairs originating from areas of the body outside those specifically designated as head or pubic are generally not suitable for significant comparison purposes. These hairs might originate from the neck, sideburns, abdomen, upper leg, and back.

Other Body Area Hairs
Axillary (underarm) hairs, chest hairs, eye hairs, and nose hairs are not routinely compared. As with limb hairs and fringe hairs, their presence may help to corroborate information obtained during an investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...0/deedric1.htm

Which to me sounds like FBI considers limb and fringe hair to be different animals...

I was wondering if Casey was wearing short shorts and placed the edges of the duct tape on her leg.... maybe? :waitasec: Might be too far fetched...

Since some pieces were 9 inches long they would probably fold and stick to each other. Nah :snooty:

The fringe hair on Q104 has puzzled me for a while...

 

[my_tee_mouse]

from when i have used duct tape - it does rip very straight across and neat once you get the tear started.

Yes...and how do many people get the tear started? They start the tear with their teeth.