2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[Jolynna]

Here is another case determined by Dr. Haskell's testimony. The article is long, but goes into a lot of detail about what the presence or lack of various corpse-eating insects on and around a body might mean.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/kevin_neal/29.html

 

[Harmony 2]

Here is another case determined by Dr. Haskell's testimony. The article is long, but goes into a lot of detail about what the presence (or lack of presence) of various corpse-eating insects on and around a body might mean.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/kevin_neal/29.html

Thanks for posting that link. I am still reading through it. Very interesting and informative.

 

[Jolynna]

Thanks for posting that link. I am still reading through it. Very interesting and informative.

Thank you, Harmony. :blowkiss:

Besides the bug information, I thought the testimony from Dr. Bass was interesting:

How long does it take for the fatty acids in a putrefying body to kill the vegetation where the body lays? Menashe asked. Five to seven days, Bass responded.
​

That explains why Dr. Hall, the botanist, said in Caylee's autopsy report:

It is important to note that the bones would first need to be disarticulated, completely skeletonized, and then stabilized for roots to adhere and grow into bones. (Page 28, http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0619/19801946.pdf)
​

Dr. Bass also said a human can go from "how I am today" to a skeleton in 14 to 21 days. And that after two months there would be no odor or presence of flies. According to the Cadaver Dog Handbook: Forensic Training and Tactics for the Recovery of Human Remains, a child would break down faster than an adult. Which means that the searcher from New Jersey could be accurate about being close to where Caylee was in September and not smelling a thing. By September, Caylee would have been dead for 2 1/2 months. There wouldn't have been hordes of flies, a smell, or buzzards.

About the smell, according to Dr. Bass:

After two months, "you have to walk up and get awful close to it," he added. "You'd have to stick your nose down close to it."

​

Dr. Bass was talking about bodies in Ohio, not Florida. According to the science cited in Caylee's autopsy report, in a more tropical climate the process would be accelerated.

jmo

 

[suepitzl]

snipped...........Finding blow fly remains on Suburban under Caylee's scattered bones would prove beyond a shadow of doubt (imo) that Caylee was left on Suburban while stilll decomposing. Blow Flies are attracted to a fresh corpse, the lack of them (1 leg) indicates she was left in the trunk, bagged for a period of time before put in the woods. There were many coffin flies, which are attracted to later stages of decomp found in the white trash bag and with her remains.

 

[suepitzl]

snipped.The bacteria needed to make adipocere thrives where there is NO oxygen. So you'd most expect to find adipocere in the decomposition in the bag because that is where oxygen was most cut off.
I do not mean to sound like an expert or anything, but in decomposition, the body does get to a state where there is no oxygen fueling the decomp process anymore (anaerobic), so the anaerobic stage has nothing to do with being in the trunk or in a bag. A dead person left out in open air will undergo a phase of anaerobic decomposition, it is just part of the normal decomp cycle.

 

[Jolynna]

snipped.The bacteria needed to make adipocere thrives where there is NO oxygen. So you'd most expect to find adipocere in the decomposition in the bag because that is where oxygen was most cut off.
I do not mean to sound like an expert or anything, but in decomposition, the body does get to a state where there is no oxygen fueling the decomp process anymore (anaerobic), so the anaerobic stage has nothing to do with being in the trunk or in a bag. A dead person left out in open air will undergo a phase of anaerobic decomposition, it is just part of the normal decomp cycle.

Putrefactive organisms, of which Clostridium welchii is most active, are important, and adipocere formation is facilitated by post-mortem invasion of the tissues by commensal bacteria. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae.

Obviously, a corpse cannot enter into an adipocere formation stage if all of its soft tissues have been consumed (eaten by bugs & animals).

While Caylee was bagged & in the Pontiac trunk, the body was safe from scavengers. The conditions for bacteria favorable to putrefaction and the beginnings of adipocere formation were ideal.

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html

http://focosi.altervista.org/legalmedicine.html

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...+environment+corpse&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Jolynna]

So much from Brookey West's trial reminds me of the circumstances of Caylee's death. This is from the state's opening statement:

Next came a grisly photo of Smith's head on the autopsy table, a plastic bag tied tightly around her nose and mouth.


The plastic bag is proof that West killed her mother, Coumou said, even though there is no official cause of death.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7BHyVJ7ewIEJ:www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jul-07-Sat-2001/news/16489129.html+%22brookey+west%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


​

 

[chefmom]

Just heard on JVM, that the new forensic science used in this case, ie: the smell in the trunk - will have to be presented in a separate hearing called a FRYE HEARING, and it will be determined if it is admissable in trial.
Only when opinions of an expert are based on “new and novel” scientific techniques are they subject to a Frye inquiry.


Found a couple links, one explains the Federal standard and the other refers to the State of Florida.
FL - http://www.palmbeachbar.org/members/Oct_02_Ted.pdf
Federal - http://www.lectlaw.com/files/exp08.htm

I'm sure that JB & AL will ask for this. Even if the judge were to throw out the new science, the SA will still have a trained medical person (CA) and an ex LE (GA) who stated that the car smelled like a dead body. He can't unring THAT bell.

 

[The World According]

I just want to tell MM how much we appreciate you getting us all the documents, all the time. Merry Christmas buddy!

 

[Harmony 2]

Bumping this thread up...

I am wondering how the new report about the water levels will affect the entomology experts cross examination by the defense....

 

[notthatsmart]

Bumping this thread up...

I am wondering how the new report about the water levels will affect the entomology experts cross examination by the defense....

I think it will effect the interpretation of the report. How many times were the remains underwater and which generation of coffin flies were found in the wet soil below the bones. I can't find the log laying over that he talked about. I also can't see the description that RK gave in the 911 call of the white board hanging over and mowed area beyond.

 

[Jolynna]

Bumping this thread up...

I am wondering how the new report about the water levels will affect the entomology experts cross examination by the defense....

Dr. Haskell concluded that:

Based upon insect development of the presence of eclosed (hatched) puparia of Diptera: Calliphoridae; Chrysomya ruffaces; Diptera: Calliphoridae; Chrysomya megacephala (likely); Diptera: Sarcophagidae; Diptera: Muscidae; Ophyra sp.; Diptera: Muscidae; Fannia sp.; Diptera: Phoridae; Megaselia scalaris; and Diptera: Stratiomyidae; Hermetia illucens recovered either from the remains at autopsy or from the scene where the remains were deposited is consistent for death and insect colonization occurring in the later portion of June 2009 and into July 2008. Page 11 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

The presense of eclosed (hatched) puparia of Diptera: Calliphoridae; Chrysomya ruffaces; Diptera: Calliphoridae; Chrysomya megacephala (likely); Diptera: Sarcophagidae; Diptera: Muscidae; Ophyra sp.; Diptera: Muscidae; Fannia sp.; Diptera: Phoridae; Megaselia scalaris; and Diptera: Stratiomyidae; Hermetia illucens recovered either from the remains at autopsy or from the scene where the remains were deposited is consistent with earlier colonization (and not from an October-December colonization date). Page 23 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf
​

My interpretation of that report is that the type of bugs found with Caylee's bones and in the dirt under and around Caylee's bones show Caylee was dead and distributed on Suburban in late June or early July.

I haven't read any report, including the one about water, that I think challenges the Entomology Report's conclusions.

 

[The World According]

Just heard on JVM, that the new forensic science used in this case, ie: the smell in the trunk - will have to be presented in a separate hearing called a FRYE HEARING, and it will be determined if it is admissable in trial.
Only when opinions of an expert are based on “new and novel” scientific techniques are they subject to a Frye inquiry.


Found a couple links, one explains the Federal standard and the other refers to the State of Florida.
FL - http://www.palmbeachbar.org/members/Oct_02_Ted.pdf
Federal - http://www.lectlaw.com/files/exp08.htm

Have their been any motions regarding this yet? TIA

 

[mitzi]

Have their been any motions regarding this yet? TIA

I haven't seen any, but I have been known to miss a thing or two. :crazy:

 

[ynotdivein]

Here is another case determined by Dr. Haskell's testimony. The article is long, but goes into a lot of detail about what the presence or lack of various corpse-eating insects on and around a body might mean.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/kevin_neal/29.html

Jolynna, belated thanks for this link. Found the following very interesting (chapter 23 of the linked story):

"On May 11, 2000, the trial of Kevin Neal began with the jurors taking a trip to the Neal farmhouse and the cemetery where the children were found. Following the jury view, they heard the opening statements of Selvaggio and Assistant Public Defender Marc Tripplett. In his opening, Selvaggio laid out the basis of the State's case."

What if the State starts with a visit to experience the odor in the trunk of the Pontiac, then a quick swing past the Anthony home & the "dump site" just down the road, before anyone says a word? Potential Frye hearing results be danged in that case.

MOO!

 

[notthatsmart]

I just wonder how that smell is still lingering. I think it would be a mistake for the Sa to take the jurrors there. First of all, they would have to be experienced in the smell to be familiar with it. I did not see where the entamologist said it still smelled like human decomp? Just smelled like decomp. Could be anything? This could back fire on Sa, like the gloves did in the Oj case. Moo

 

[hroark2112]

Did you ever see the Mythbusters episode with the dead pigs in the Corvette?? They stripped the interior, cleaned the entire car, and still couldn't get the smell out. The guy who bought the car bought it for the motor & tranny and was going to part out the body.

That's a tough smell to get out!

I do agree with the part about recognizing the smell. The average Joe Schmuck doesn't recognize that smell as death/decomposition. I know I wouldn't, and as a plumber, I've smelled some nasty stuff. That may be the stumbling block to overcome for the SA.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I just wonder how that smell is still lingering. I think it would be a mistake for the Sa to take the jurrors there. First of all, they would have to be experienced in the smell to be familiar with it. I did not see where the entamologist said it still smelled like human decomp? Just smelled like decomp. Could be anything? This could back fire on Sa, like the gloves did in the Oj case. Moo

No, you don't have to be an expert or have experience to know what death smells like.

 

[Bittiness39]

I just wonder how that smell is still lingering. I think it would be a mistake for the Sa to take the jurrors there. First of all, they would have to be experienced in the smell to be familiar with it. I did not see where the entamologist said it still smelled like human decomp? Just smelled like decomp. Could be anything? This could back fire on Sa, like the gloves did in the Oj case. Moo

All I know about bad smelling stuff, apart from my nephew last nite...and wow...that smell...is that my last semester of college I lived with my brother and he loves alfredo...making it I mean. Some of what he made on the stove managed to get onto the burner plate...he went out of town for the weekend, and not being a foodie (or much of a cook) I had no idea that the alfredo had spilled over. A day later, I was in the kitchen and almost retched from the smell...naturally, I cleaned it up once I figured out where it was coming from. I don't have any idea how long it would have smelt like that had I not cleaned it...

But back to the original topic of the thread...if Caylee was in KC's trunk and began to decompose...whether the bags she was in began to leak or she was placed in bags after she began to decompose...I would imagine that the smell would still be horrific...considering it was lodged in fiber...carpetlike material...jmo.

 

[logicalgirl]

No, you don't have to be an expert or have experience to know what death smells like.

I also think they could first have an expert testify before the jury went to the car that yes, the car trunk smelled like human decomp, to accompany them and to testify after the trip that again, that is the same smell as before.

Or what the heck - take George!