2009.11.19 Defense files motion suggesting Kronk as the killer. #3

[Rlaub44]

Your second sentence is certainly true. Reasonable doubt can easily stem from Mr. Kronk's Swiss cheese style story, which is why I hold Judge Strickland must necessarily rule in favor of the motion.

Sorry to double quote here, but I just remembered something. When the motion to dismiss was being discussed, you were one of the people who said the motion should be granted because there was not enough evidence in your opinion to support the charges, despite the grand jury indictment and everything.

Now you are supporting this motion to allow Kronk to be treated as an equally likely suspect, based solely on inconsistencies in his story of finding Caylee's remains, and some prior weirdness alleged by some people from his past.

So not enough evidence to go to trial for Casey, but plenty of evidence to consider Kronk a suspect. So you are considering Kronk more likely of a suspect than Casey?

And yes, I understand that highly reliable inculpatory evidence needs to be shown to convict Casey, but that is what the trial is for determining. The grand jury indicted, which shows a prima facie case. So they don't need the same level of evidence simply to go to trial, which you already know.

 

[Harmony 2]

Don't you remember all the talk about a meter reading wand or stick or ? (there's a specific name that I'm searching for). He claimed he used that to poke or lift or something to the bag. LE took it and tested it eventually iirc.

Roy Kronk’s statement on December 11
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0305/18862974.pdf

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I was with you, until I listened to his jail visit with KC....He is a good actor if he is lying, cause he seems to be concerned about Caylee, though not all together comfortable having a one on one with his daughter. I just got the feeling that he really did care about Caylee, that part was easy for him to do emotionally...but being alone with the daughter he does not see eye-to-eye with was weird for him. I just didn't see any wink-wink relationship between him and KC.

I did. Princess asked to see GA alone. Princess teared up only when her Father was testifying at the bond hearing.

If a Sociopath is all of the characteristics that I have learned here that makes a person fit that description - then it could fit anyone even if we get the feeling they care about somebody. That's what one does is lie without batting an eyelash. Why couldn't he be the biggest sicko in the family? He never really did seem to care about how his lack of employment, gambling or scam involvements affected his family. He took care of the cars - so what. I hate sounding so accusatory and mean but, gee whiz, I have felt this way about him. I think that's what Sociopaths do - they stand there while everyone around them look like the crazy ones.

 

[spiderlady]

I find all of this quite odd and so fishy. After all, wasn't it reported by a member of the Padilla team that their fearless leader was still communicating with JB? What is up with that. Has anyone heard anything else about the other Padilla that posted here?

 

[Hot Dogs]

Roy Kronk’s statement on December 11
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0305/18862974.pdf

Check out the last page #3992. Kronk and Melich never should have signed that. Why? It has the date of Aug 10. That is supposed to be Aug 11.

Add that to the list of OCSO clerical/typo errors in the docs.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Go here and read forwards. It's a thread about KW but it gets into some teens who found something odd buried by the school on Suburban. Rumor was that it was a bomb and was sexually-oriented. It's really bizarre and I actually doubt that it is true. I mean, I don't think LE found a bomb.

I remember about the kids. They gave written statements to LE. I don't remember about the bomb but remember something about a string and that the kids returned the next day to investigate further.

As far as I remember, nothing much was revealed but the kids were asked to swear that they had told no one or something like that.

Thanks, I will read up on the subject.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I just don't understand it when people say the defense is just "doing their job" or "doing the only thing they can".

A defense attorney's job is to ensure their client has a fair trial. Not to do anything and everything they can to "win".

This defense team is not doing the only thing they can, not just "doing their job". There are alternatives.

They must really think KC is guilty if they are going to these great lengths to make argument against the death penalty. That doesn't help RK much but it's something to ponder.

 

[sleutherontheside]

I may get kicked for this but I feel I just need to make a point. I will preface my point by stating that IMO KC is responsible for the death of her daughter. That said.......as a person that grew up with a Judge for an uncle, an attorney for an aunt, a current neighbor that is a high profile defense attorney, and a number of friends in the legal field.......I have been exposed to numerous legal perspectives. I for one respect the legal system in place because I feel certain that if I were to find myself in some sort of legal tangle, that I would have a fair chance to defend myself and receive a fair trial. There is such passion tied to this case.....strong opinions, convictions, and a desire to see KC convicted. While I share much the same opinion and sentiment, I also am pleased to see motions, memos, and other defense actions every time they are filed. Do I find some of those motions laughable? Yep...sure do. Do I find some of the statements to be at or beyond the edge of professional standards? Yep. DO I wonder why the defense team even bothers with half of their actions? Nope not a bit. I take comfort in the defense team "throwing spaghetti at the wall". Why?...you may ask??? With each motion or effort to gain ground for their client, they simultaneously remove an argument for appeal. If I were KC....I would expect my team to attempt every hat trick, legal maneuver, or action in an effort to get me off. A defense attorney's job is to offer legal representation and, in the absence of a confession, to gain an aquittal. While it may be objectionable in light of a guilt or innocence issue, the rules and standards apply to everyone....guilty or innocent. I believe that KC will be found guilty and spend the rest of her days in prison. BUT....I will feel more secure if the guilty verdict is handed down after her team has exhausted all other efforts. Do I think RK is getting a raw deal? Yep...sure do......but do I understand why? That has to be a yes as well. There are legal actions that are not always ethical. But, if I were KC would I count on those technical details to work in my favor? That would have to be a yes.

JMO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Dec 11 according to RK: he said he came upon a black plastic bag with something dome-shaped concealed beneath it. He struck the dome shape with his meter rod tool. It made a hollow sound. He then used the tool to lift the bag. Beneath was the skull. It was next to a (fallen?) tree.

How does this match up to how they really (LE) found the skull is what I'm asking? I will go find it but it will be a little while. I know the skull was found at the base of a standing tree iirc - that's why I have to search out the link which is in discovery.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Of course I remember that. Is there something that is confusing you or are you not understanding something? No disrespect meant by me asking that, BTW.

ETA: See post 410.

Sorry but I've been reading five pages behind and just posting away. Then I get two pages up and see it's been mentioned already. Sorry if I've been redundant but I was reading about lifting the bag, rolled out, dropped out, no mention of the tool until a few pages up.

I am confused though. Good for you if you're not. There is nothing that is not confusing to me about this case but I tend to overthink things and can't keep the massive information organized in my brain. :crazy:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

This is kind of a bad example to apply to this case though isn't it?

Solomon's test and his conclusion that stemmed from it is the exact reason some people have a hard time believing that KC (or any of the other notorious women who are known to have killed their children) could have killed Caylee. It is the reaction that we would hope to see come out of a Mother but, sadly, it is not always the case. :furious:

(I may be missing your point though, if so, I'm sorry.)

Oh it's not you, Woe. I'm just not very good at expressing myself! I saw the similarity of the false mother's willingness to kill that baby in order to have her own way as an undercurrent but most critical point in this story. To me it translates to the willingness of Casey's team to sacrifice others just to have their way in a court of law.

I was trying to answer the question about how much we are personally willing to give up to insure our own outcome of being found not guilty. I was hoping the perspectives' of the two women would be a good illustration of those boundaries between what I see as morally right and wrong. Complicated further because it's only moo.

 

[cecybeans]

There is something weird about this to me. Why pull some highly-publicized SODDI stunt like this so far away from the trial? This might be effective two weeks away, but the SA has all kinds of time to invesigate these charges, interview these witnesses and see if they hold up or lack credibility (my guess is that the witnesses have an agenda, primarily because Crystal did a 180 on her original reaction and April is seen to be extorting money from her father in the email DC and CA shared).

So why would they need a dramatic, preemptive strike over six months before this ever hits trial? Maybe they are simply creating a diversion before the next doc dump (they've done it before). But maybe they specifically need to impeach the credibility of this particular witness and making him a temporary "murder suspect" will do the trick.

The only thing I can think of for which the defense would need not only a diversion, but to discredit RK, is if, for some reason they are worried that he will come up in DC's deposition, or that DC has somehow struck a deal with the state. If DC is the reason that RK was inspired to look there on Suburban, then it would be in the defense's best interests to make him look like a liar and a instead of the hero who found Caylee.

The hinkiness is not limited to RK happening to be at the spot her remains were found - he may simply be a pawn in this. What is most striking to me is that RK located them the first day he was assigned to the area, dutifully called LE, was blown off and then apparently transferred to another route. A couple of weeks after DC is scrounging around in the same area, (serendipitously the week that CA and GA will be doing LKL), RK is reassigned the same route and given "another chance" to locate Caylee at the same coordinates.

While it is still possible RK could have done it the way he said he did, why did JB pick a couple of weeks before DC's dreaded depo to suddenly splash this, in a most unprofessional way (and one that might leave him open to a defamation suit because he went straight to the media instead of using the normal discovery channels to disseminate the info) all over the press? Particularly when there is no strategic value for coming out this early.

More things that make me go hmmmmm....I'd like to know how many degrees of separation are between DC and RK (for instance RK's supervisor). Something does not seem right, and it has nothing to do with RK finding Caylee, imo.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Oh it's not you, Woe. I'm just not very good at expressing myself! I saw the similarity of the false mother's willingness to kill that baby in order to have her own way as an undercurrent but most critical point in this story. To me it translates to the willingness of Casey's team to sacrifice others just to have their way in a court of law.

I was trying to answer the question about how much we are personally willing to give up to insure our own outcome of being found not guilty. I was hoping the perspectives' of the two women would be a good illustration of those boundaries between what I see as morally right and wrong. Complicated further because it's only moo.

Yes you are good at expressing yourself; I'm just commenting on the irony of it all!

Not to mention the willingness of Casey's family to do the same, that is, sacrifice others.
It's a dog eat dog world out there they say.

 

[cyberborg]

There is something weird about this to me. Why pull some highly-publicized SODDI stunt like this so far away from the trial? This might be effective two weeks away, but the SA has all kinds of time to invesigate these charges, interview these witnesses and see if they hold up or lack credibility (my guess is that the witnesses have an agenda, primarily because Crystal did a 180 on her original reaction and April is seen to be extorting money from her father in the email DC and CA shared).

So why would they need a dramatic, preemptive strike over six months before this ever hits trial? Maybe they are simply creating a diversion before the next doc dump (they've done it before). But maybe they specifically need to impeach the credibility of this particular witness and making him a temporary "murder suspect" will do the trick.

The only thing I can think of for which the defense would need not only a diversion, but to discredit RK, is if, for some reason they are worried that he will come up in DC's deposition, or that DC has somehow struck a deal with the state. If DC is the reason that RK was inspired to look there on Suburban, then it would be in the defense's best interests to make him look like a liar and a instead of the hero who found Caylee.

The hinkiness is not limited to RK happening to be at the spot her remains were found - he may simply be a pawn in this. What is most striking to me is that RK located them the first day he was assigned to the area, dutifully called LE, was blown off and then apparently transferred to another route. A couple of weeks after DC is scrounging around in the same area, (serendipitously the week that CA and GA will be doing LKL), RK is reassigned the same route and given "another chance" to locate Caylee at the same coordinates.

While it is still possible RK could have done it the way he said he did, why did JB pick a couple of weeks before DC's dreaded depo to suddenly splash this, in a most unprofessional way (and one that might leave him open to a defamation suit because he went straight to the media instead of using the normal discovery channels to disseminate the info) all over the press? Particularly when there is no strategic value for coming out this early.

More things that make me go hmmmmm....I'd like to know how many degrees of separation are between DC and RK (for instance RK's supervisor). Something does not seem right, and it has nothing to do with RK finding Caylee, imo.

I tend to agree, it was one thing to do the motion and take this path against RK but completely another to not only attach videos of RK's ex-wives but also schedule an intense series of media appearances to coincide.

This was very calculated and very devious. It has a key point and timing.

The plan and motion was preset ahead of RK's depo because it takes time to setup and the trigger was pulled on the motion before RK started/completed his depo.

Also note that the Defense have NEVER done a media campaign of this scale and JB even faced off with JVM for a prolonged session, even though it was still soft ball.

If this is just a spaghetti defense and RK is just one of the targets then the Defense risked a lot and expended a lot on this.

I am intrigued by the daisy chain and that DC is desperate given his searches and involvement that classically points back to CA/LA and KC as the source.

This is BIG, this is very BIG yet the connection of RK is very very weak to Caylee -- so its an act of desperation for either something that is going down soon or to seek a better plea deal.

Something smells and it smells bad. How is Strickland going to view this premature stunt -- the backlash on many blogs is very negative so the cost was definitely worth it to them.

 

[cecybeans]

I tend to agree, it was one thing to do the motion and take this path against RK but completely another to not only attach videos of RK's ex-wives but also schedule an intense series of media appearances to coincide.

This was very calculated and very devious. It has a key point and timing.

The plan and motion was preset ahead of RK's depo because it takes time to setup and the trigger was pulled on the motion before RK started/completed his depo.

Also note that the Defense have NEVER done a media campaign of this scale and JB even faced off with JVM for a prolonged session, even though it was still soft ball.

If this is just a spaghetti defense and RK is just one of the targets then the Defense risked a lot and expended a lot on this.

I am intrigued by the daisy chain and that DC is desperate given his searches and involvement that classically points back to CA/LA and KC as the source.

This is BIG, this is very BIG yet the connection of RK is very very weak to Caylee -- so its an act of desperation for either something that is going down soon or to seek a better plea deal.

Something smells and it smells bad. How is Strickland going to view this premature stunt -- the backlash on many blogs is very negative so the cost was definitely worth it to them.

ITA - this may have been meant to scare RK and flush out what he may know, but I think the bigger fish is meant to be DC. JB almost had a heart attack the first time LE interviewed him, and I doubt he has changed his mind.

What kind of PI has 3 "simultaneous" contracts with the defendant, her family and her attorney when two parties are represented by different counsel? He has been the King of Hinkville from the get-go, imo.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I may get kicked for this but I feel I just need to make a point. I will preface my point by stating that IMO KC is responsible for the death of her daughter. That said.......as a person that grew up with a Judge for an uncle, an attorney for an aunt, a current neighbor that is a high profile defense attorney, and a number of friends in the legal field.......I have been exposed to numerous legal perspectives. I for one respect the legal system in place because I feel certain that if I were to find myself in some sort of legal tangle, that I would have a fair chance to defend myself and receive a fair trial. There is such passion tied to this case.....strong opinions, convictions, and a desire to see KC convicted. While I share much the same opinion and sentiment, I also am pleased to see motions, memos, and other defense actions every time they are filed. Do I find some of those motions laughable? Yep...sure do. Do I find some of the statements to be at or beyond the edge of professional standards? Yep. DO I wonder why the defense team even bothers with half of their actions? Nope not a bit. I take comfort in the defense team "throwing spaghetti at the wall". Why?...you may ask??? With each motion or effort to gain ground for their client, they simultaneously remove an argument for appeal. If I were KC....I would expect my team to attempt every hat trick, legal maneuver, or action in an effort to get me off. A defense attorney's job is to offer legal representation and, in the absence of a confession, to gain an aquittal. While it may be objectionable in light of a guilt or innocence issue, the rules and standards apply to everyone....guilty or innocent. I believe that KC will be found guilty and spend the rest of her days in prison. BUT....I will feel more secure if the guilty verdict is handed down after her team has exhausted all other efforts. Do I think RK is getting a raw deal? Yep...sure do......but do I understand why? That has to be a yes as well. There are legal actions that are not always ethical. But, if I were KC would I count on those technical details to work in my favor? That would have to be a yes.

JMO

OMGosh I so agree with almost everything you said. (Could I borrow your family and friends if I ever get in trouble?) But the last few sentences bring me concern.

Just like I hate that Cindy is willing to "throw everyone under the bus" (I hate that phrase and will never use it again) I think it is equally unacceptable for a defense team to do it. And they should be held to a higher standard than Cindy!!!!

But you and I agree that every single effort should be made to prove Casey's innocence!! They should exhaust all their efforts to do so but not at the expense of destroying others' lives. Why should Casey's life and rights be held in higher esteem than anyone else's just because she is an accused? That's the same thing Cindy is doing and why we are so critical of her. It is no more righteous for the defense to do this than Cindy.

I don't want any chance for an appeal either. Casey shouldn't walk among unsuspecting people ever again. But I'm not ready to sacrifice Kronk, the searchers, or any single other innocent person to accomplish this. There has to be a better way. . . and I am praying!!!!

 

[RR0004]

Back on Dec 11, nearly all the media was saying "fell out of the bag" or "rolled out of the bag" because that is what Kronk said on that day. He was wrong.

That OCSO interview can serva as a link of sorts. You hear the cops talking to Roy about the "falling out" bit and he tells them he was wrong and why he was wrong. He told them he initially said it because he was excited and nervous. He even posed a hypothetical in the interview challenging anyone to keep their mind and story straight after seeing a human skull in the woods.

Do they have a recording of him saying this...because yes, the media reported it, but according to Kronk in the police interview he never said it. The media is even mentioned...and he states they got it wrong (or something to that effect). I also remember there were a lot of misreporting about the bag as well.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

There is something weird about this to me. Why pull some highly-publicized SODDI stunt like this so far away from the trial? This might be effective two weeks away, but the SA has all kinds of time to invesigate these charges, interview these witnesses and see if they hold up or lack credibility (my guess is that the witnesses have an agenda, primarily because Crystal did a 180 on her original reaction and April is seen to be extorting money from her father in the email DC and CA shared).

So why would they need a dramatic, preemptive strike over six months before this ever hits trial? Maybe they are simply creating a diversion before the next doc dump (they've done it before). But maybe they specifically need to impeach the credibility of this particular witness and making him a temporary "murder suspect" will do the trick.

The only thing I can think of for which the defense would need not only a diversion, but to discredit RK, is if, for some reason they are worried that he will come up in DC's deposition, or that DC has somehow struck a deal with the state. If DC is the reason that RK was inspired to look there on Suburban, then it would be in the defense's best interests to make him look like a liar and a instead of the hero who found Caylee.

The hinkiness is not limited to RK happening to be at the spot her remains were found - he may simply be a pawn in this. What is most striking to me is that RK located them the first day he was assigned to the area, dutifully called LE, was blown off and then apparently transferred to another route. A couple of weeks after DC is scrounging around in the same area, (serendipitously the week that CA and GA will be doing LKL), RK is reassigned the same route and given "another chance" to locate Caylee at the same coordinates.

While it is still possible RK could have done it the way he said he did, why did JB pick a couple of weeks before DC's dreaded depo to suddenly splash this, in a most unprofessional way (and one that might leave him open to a defamation suit because he went straight to the media instead of using the normal discovery channels to disseminate the info) all over the press? Particularly when there is no strategic value for coming out this early.

More things that make me go hmmmmm....I'd like to know how many degrees of separation are between DC and RK (for instance RK's supervisor). Something does not seem right, and it has nothing to do with RK finding Caylee, imo.

Very respectfully bolded by me. My answer to this question (sadly) is because it is only the first of many. There will be more to follow and they will get the most convenient out of the way first. (Sad, sad smiley inserted here.)

 

[Hot Dogs]

This motion pointing at RK could accomplish two things for the defense.

1. It attempts to show that RK might be responsible for Caylee's death.
2. It attempts to show that OCSO is incompetant for not recognizing that RK is highly suspicious and dealing with him as such.

A juror is presented with a "suspicious guy" and a "crummy investigative body who rushed to judgement". It's a double push for reasonable doubt. The Simpson defense team did similar.

 

[cyberborg]

OMGosh I so agree with almost everything you said. (Could I borrow your family and friends if I ever get in trouble?) But the last few sentences bring me concern.

Just like I hate that Cindy is willing to "throw everyone under the bus" (I hate that phrase and will never use it again) I think it is equally unacceptable for a defense team to do it. And they should be held to a higher standard than Cindy!!!!

But you and I agree that every single effort should be made to prove Casey's innocence!! They should exhaust all their efforts to do so but not at the expense of destroying others' lives. Why should Casey's life and rights be held in higher esteem than anyone else's just because she is an accused? That's the same thing Cindy is doing and why we are so critical of her. It is no more righteous for the defense to do this than Cindy.

I don't want any chance for an appeal either. Casey shouldn't walk among unsuspecting people ever again. But I'm not ready to sacrifice Kronk, the searchers, or any single other innocent person to accomplish this. There has to be a better way. . . and I am praying!!!!

ITA! This was not a professional investigation or assesment of RK as a viable suspect but a scorched earth witchhunt tried in the public domain.

It was fine for the Defense to investigate RK, it was fine for the Defense to consider RK as a possible suspect, even to file the motion if they want and, to have this as a plan and strategy for trial. It is fine to seek to question, impeach and affect RK's testimony at trial.

What is not fine is the devious attachment of RK's ex-Wives videos to the motion and the well-timed media blitz. The Defense have NEVER done a media tour of this scale based on so little and were using the videos to slander RK as a tool.

There is an agenda involved here that smells bad and it is very interesting that while the videos would get released under the Sunshine Law once filed with the court and requested --- the media outlets already had them as if the Defense brought copies with them.

The motion was drafted and filed before RK even spoke a word at his depo!

This is NOT the professional and passionate defense that KC can and should expect this is a dirty game of slandering a witness in the media as fodder to counter the bad press that KC has/had and to make another sensational actor in the Caylee murder to reduce the media impact of KC and the A's. Pure and simple.

The Defense are sacrificing someone to make KC look better, using the AL word 'kill' instead of DP and trying to humanize KC to level the playing field but RK is the sacrificial lamb. Who's next?