2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[janine]

I worked with a girl one time that had worked in a nursing home and she told me when patients pass away they would put a towel wrapped a certain way at the deceased rear end and up front if female to keep fluids from leaking till coroner arrived. She said it was to keep from having such a mess and if anything in bowels that was the first area to go.

I also seen this done when my Mom passed away. Although they had the door pulled I stood inside and watched.

This is true. My dad passed at a convalescent last year. They had to tear me away from him to get him ready for the coroner- After preparation, they let me come in one more time to say goodbye and he had towels folded under these areas. I wanted to stay with him but now I know why they couldn't let me.

 

[Chiquita71]

Thank you for the excellent sleuthing on this thread. I have been following this thread for a while, I have only recently been able to see what others have been talking about. I don't know if my mind didn't want to see it...but I also had not read the documents from the lab that saw the same. I was able to see what others had shown to be a stain of Caylee last week and I read the document right after that.

I still do not want to think that is Caylee I am seeing, but knowing she was(allegedly)in the trunk of the Pontiac, deceased-even I can understand there would be "staining." Something left-over. :sigh:

Statement to LE
George Anthony
7/24/2008

GA: Please don't let this be my Caylee. That's what I thought. That's what I, my heart was saying. I opened it up and that's when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it's right about where the spare tire was at. Basketball size, or something around there. I don't know if it's exactly circular.
LE: Was it there though? Was it where the bag was, or was it next to the bags?
GA: I don't know. But the bag was on the, you know where the tail light is on the left hand side?
LE: (affirmative)
GA: The bag was centered more towards that area.
LE: So the bag wasn't on the stain? The stain was a different spot?
GA: It was, yeah(affirmative)it was, it was right over there. And as the guy, the guy reached inside himself and he says, "oh, my god." and that's when I saw the, the pizza box. I saw what I believe were some kind of insect type things and then...
LE: So was the bag open? Was it pouring out on...
GA: No, no, no. The, the bag was closed.
LE: Oh, okay.
GA: And then it was vented probably about the size of this can.
LE: Uh-hum
GA: And it had the ties on it.
LE: Oh, okay
GA: And I saw the Uhm, Arm and Hammer lint, laundry detergent things. That's when I know like uh...
LE: Yeah
GA: Because that's something we use at our house, so...
LE: Right, the...
GA: So that's what I, I said. The guy said, "Sir I'll take care of that. I'll get rid of it." But the smell never went away.
(skip)
GA: ...but I'm sitting here as the grandfather, as the father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget it. I even stuck my nose down on it and I'm, I'm concerned. So...
(end)

 

[Solace]

I still do not want to think that is Caylee I am seeing, but knowing she was(allegedly)in the trunk of the Pontiac, deceased-even I can understand there would be "staining." Something left-over. :sigh:

(end)

Hi Chiquita,

When did George say this? I don't remember ever reading it and it is a great find. Can you let me know where he says this - with the FBI interview?

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Thank you for the excellent sleuthing on this thread. I have been following this thread for a while, I have only recently been able to see what others have been talking about. I don't know if my mind didn't want to see it...but I also had not read the documents from the lab that saw the same. I was able to see what others had shown to be a stain of Caylee last week and I read the document right after that.

I still do not want to think that is Caylee I am seeing, but knowing she was(allegedly)in the trunk of the Pontiac, deceased-even I can understand there would be "staining." Something left-over. :sigh:

Statement to LE
George Anthony
7/24/2008

GA: Please don't let this be my Caylee. That's what I thought. That's what I, my heart was saying. I opened it up and that's when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it's right about where the spare tire was at. Basketball size, or something around there. I don't know if it's exactly circular.
LE: Was it there though? Was it where the bag was, or was it next to the bags?
GA: I don't know. But the bag was on the, you know where the tail light is on the left hand side?
LE: (affirmative)
GA: The bag was centered more towards that area.
LE: So the bag wasn't on the stain? The stain was a different spot?
GA: It was, yeah(affirmative)it was, it was right over there. And as the guy, the guy reached inside himself and he says, "oh, my god." and that's when I saw the, the pizza box. I saw what I believe were some kind of insect type things and then...
LE: So was the bag open? Was it pouring out on...
GA: No, no, no. The, the bag was closed.
LE: Oh, okay.
GA: And then it was vented probably about the size of this can.
LE: Uh-hum
GA: And it had the ties on it.
LE: Oh, okay
GA: And I saw the Uhm, Arm and Hammer lint, laundry detergent things. That's when I know like uh...
LE: Yeah
GA: Because that's something we use at our house, so...
LE: Right, the...
GA: So that's what I, I said. The guy said, "Sir I'll take care of that. I'll get rid of it." But the smell never went away.
(skip)
GA: ...but I'm sitting here as the grandfather, as the father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget it. I even stuck my nose down on it and I'm, I'm concerned. So...
(end)

I remember this interview. The guy from the tow yard got to look into the trunk so I had assumed that Casey had dumped Caylee somewhere close to home before leaving the car at Amscot. Well, that is what I thought back then. I now wonder if George got to see anything in the trunk the day she came to bring back the gas cans that they got into a verbal altercation and if that was the day that she dumped Caylee. It's been so long, I would have to go way back and read up on that statement from George. I always felt he wanted to kill himself because he smelled the car and new in his heart that it was Caylee and he couldn't live with that awful memory. :sick: JMO though.

 

[wenwe4]

That's possible as well, but the big issue I have with that is that if the decomp fluid had gotten on the shovel, I am guessing that she could have never gotten the smell out of the shovel. But I could certainly be wrong about that - it's happened before! :smile:

A quick dunk in the pool perhaps? Maybe she covered the shovel head with the disney bag found at the remains site? I am just speculating here, but when I make meatloaf I put baggies over my hands so I won't have to take off my rings (or I just mix it in the baggie). Or when I pick up raw meat, I turn the baggie inside out over my hand and slip it around the meat right side out. Rinsing off the shovel in the back yard with the hose - leading to decomp smell in the backyard?

 

[LolaMoon08]

You know, as depressing as this thread is, I am so glad someone bumped it, because it will make it a lot harder for the jury to buy the "accident, cover-up, mental-illness-suppression-of-emotions" defense theory I suggested if it appears that Caylee's hands and arms were bound behind her back. If someone was trying to make a dead body LOOK kidnapped (and believe me, I have zero experience in this) I wouldn't think it would occur to you to do such a good job of the restraints. This looks more like an attempt to prevent a live person from fighting back.

I hope that the State also explains to a jury that it doesn't matter the age or size of the victim, we all have a natural instinct to fight for our lives. When Caylee's mouth was duct taped... and she couldn't breath... she would instinctively try to remove whatever it was that was preventing her from breathing. The more and more I am reading on this thread, I am convinced that Caylee was awake when Casey applied the duct tape. I believe Caylee fought with every ounce of her being to stay alive and Casey made that impossible when she took away the only defense Caylee had... her arms/hands.

I don't know if anyone has ever experienced a moment where they could not breathe (choking, etc...). It is an extremely scary few moments. Horrifying. If Casey did make Caylee's death as horrifying as to sit there and allow her to slowly die... I am more and more convinced that she should get the Death Penalty. Caylee had to have been so scared... and if it happened the way I am starting to believe it happened... it is about as cruel of a death as anyone can suffer...

My only hope is that God was with Caylee at this very moment... that God was shielding her and comforting her in the last moments of her life. That God was protecting her and loving her and hopefully the fear I can only imagine she felt was somehow not felt by her. This is the only way that I can handle this whole case. I don't want to believe that Caylee was suffering... even though I know she probably suffered immensely. Poor baby! The pain I feel for Caylee is so deep!

I know a jury is going to feel this same pain... I just know it!

 

[cloud9]

Thought this was very interesting after reading all about the stain in KC's trunk. Link to article is below.


Snipped: In the absence of evidence such as bones, clothing or strands of hair, forensic investigators can verify whether a body decomposed at a site indoors by looking for traces of lingering fat deposits, according to a new report.

Snipped: Photo of body stain in article at link below. Though the corpse was removed and the site was cleaned, the concrete floor where the patient was found bore a distinct white stain in the shape of a woman’s body. The odd mark has puzzled past and current custodians of the facility, which is now owned by Ohio University and used for offices, studios and an art museum. (The actual location of the stain is in an unused portion of the building and is closed to the public.)


http://www.physorg.com/news144955495.html

WOW!!!

Thank you!!!

 

[cloud9]

This is true. My dad passed at a convalescent last year. They had to tear me away from him to get him ready for the coroner- After preparation, they let me come in one more time to say goodbye and he had towels folded under these areas. I wanted to stay with him but now I know why they couldn't let me.

I am so sorry.

 

[Solace]

I hope that the State also explains to a jury that it doesn't matter the age or size of the victim, we all have a natural instinct to fight for our lives. When Caylee's mouth was duct taped... and she couldn't breath... she would instinctively try to remove whatever it was that was preventing her from breathing. The more and more I am reading on this thread, I am convinced that Caylee was awake when Casey applied the duct tape. I believe Caylee fought with every ounce of her being to stay alive and Casey made that impossible when she took away the only defense Caylee had... her arms/hands.

I don't know if anyone has ever experienced a moment where they could not breathe (choking, etc...). It is an extremely scary few moments. Horrifying. If Casey did make Caylee's death as horrifying as to sit there and allow her to slowly die... I am more and more convinced that she should get the Death Penalty. Caylee had to have been so scared... and if it happened the way I am starting to believe it happened... it is about as cruel of a death as anyone can suffer...

My only hope is that God was with Caylee at this very moment... that God was shielding her and comforting her in the last moments of her life. That God was protecting her and loving her and hopefully the fear I can only imagine she felt was somehow not felt by her. This is the only way that I can handle this whole case. I don't want to believe that Caylee was suffering... even though I know she probably suffered immensely. Poor baby! The pain I feel for Caylee is so deep!

I know a jury is going to feel this same pain... I just know it!

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

 

[Solace]

But according to the "stain" left on the rug, it does not appear that her hands were behind her back, does it? Sorry if I missed something. There is a distinct arm and forearm and you can make out her hand and thumb. It is not bound.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

I don't know if I believe Caylee was drugged with chloroform prior to her death? I am starting to wonder if Casey somehow tried to get rid of the smell... the stain.. the evidence with the chloroform? I just don't know? According to this thread... people are seeing where it could be possible that Caylee was duct taped around her forearms and/or wrists and I see it too.

Hopefully the State has a lot more advanced technology than we do here and they have gotten better images (these images here are AMAZING!!) that show more detail?

I don't think we're ever going to know exactly what happened to Caylee. I don't know if we'll ever know what the chloroform was used for... where the piece of unattached duct tape was originally... all we have is speculation and what our own eyes see in these images.

The only thing we can say for sure is that Caylee was deceased in the trunk of that car. The smell confirms this. The bugs confirm this. The air samples confirm this. The grave wax confirms this. The hair with the post mortem banding proves this. The stain with Caylee's outline in the fetal position confirms this. Will a jury get to hear all this evidence?? I'm not sure, but some of it will come in and it is, imo, enough evidence to prove Caylee was there.

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

the laundry bag thread made me think...

i originally thought the stain in the trunk was vomit.. because of them finding butric acid (sp?)
after dr. vass's testimony and his opinion it was decpomp fluid (which would make sense for the decomp smell) i changed my mind and went with decomp..
but now after studying the pics of the stain and laundry bag.. i'm thinking that there's very little chance that what i'm seeing is an outline of a child.. it's easy to see things if you want to see them.
i noticed that the trunk stain has a splatter pattern.. which would explain if she did throw up in the trunk (too much chloroform?) i guess it's possible that there would be a splatter pattern of decomp fluid if she was thrown in the trunk, but it looks more consistent with the way vomit would splatter.
i'm not splatter pattern expert though... i'm curious to what others think..

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

bringing the pic over to this page

what are all those little specks behind the measuring tape?

 

[lemon]

There could have been vomit in the trunk. Could have been from any of several people: KC, GA, CA, LA. I know when I smelled a dead body the smell made me want to vomit. And that wasn't even my loved one I was smelling.

Maybe it was from Caylee but I would assume it would have to have come from before the duct tape was over her mouth. I also think some people thought those specks were maggots.

 

[LCoastMom]

But according to the "stain" left on the rug, it does not appear that her hands were behind her back, does it? Sorry if I missed something. There is a distinct arm and forearm and you can make out her hand and thumb. It is not bound.

In some of the pictures linked you can clearly see her arm / hand with a 2" band at the wrist and near the elbow. Look at where her shoulder / elbow lies in relationship to her chest. They look pulled back IMO.

(2" band visible at wrist): http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/032310caseyanthonyset3/1/lg/032310_anthony2_Page_409.htm

(2" band visible at wrist and elbow) http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/032310caseyanthonyset3/1/lg/032310_anthony2_Page_407.htm

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

Right IF she were chloroformed it would have been a "soft death" - didn't sound like the SA thought this was the case. Why tape her arms if she were knocked out?

Hi Chiquita,

When did George say this? I don't remember ever reading it and it is a great find. Can you let me know where he says this - with the FBI interview?

The interview date was 07/24/08. This post link has the taped interview:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6220584&postcount=601"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6220584&postcount=601[/ame]

 

[pip]

Per Dr. Vass' depo, on page 109 he discusses the squirrel test. He says he let is decompose on a piece of carpet covered by a garbage can for 10 days so he could get some early stage decomp thru the fur and onto the carpet sample. Stage 2 decomp is from 4-10 days. So does this mean Caylee could have been in stage 2 decomp to create the 'Shroud of Turin' type stain on the trunk liner, and does this mean she was in the trunk > 2.6 days? Is stage 1 and stage 2 considered 'early' decomp? If you believe the silhouette exists as the photo demonstrates, how could it have been created in 2.6 days or less if tissue purging doesn't occur until at least 4 days in stage 2?

 

[LambChop]

I think the image we see on the carpet is being transferred from the plastic bag onto the carpet from the heat in the car plus the early stage fluids being purged. From the looks of the carpet in the trunk there was not a lot of fluid but enough to make that impression. These would have started right away in the 130 to 200 degree heat during the day. And don't forget, too, this image is not visible to the naked eye. If the body had been in the trunk a week or longer you would know it was in there because a stained outline would have been very visible on the trunk carpet. So when an expert says 2.6 days I would tend to agree with him.

The squirrel experiment was not done in Florida and do we even know in what month it was done? Plus the doctor said there was no odor from the squirrel. After 10 days there was nothing left but a skelton and a lot of fur, which I believe he said at the Frye Hearing. jmo

 

[TallyHo]

I think the image we see on the carpet is being transferred from the plastic bag onto the carpet from the heat in the car plus the early stage fluids being purged. From the looks of the carpet in the trunk there was not a lot of fluid but enough to make that impression. These would have started right away in the 130 to 200 degree heat during the day.

The squirrel experiment was not done in Florida and do we even know in what month it was done? Plus the doctor said there was no odor from the squirrel. After 10 days there was nothing left but a skelton and a lot of fur, which I believe he said at the Frye Hearing. jmo

I also wonder if bacteria that might be attracted to the decomp fluid were part of the equation in that stain and smell????

 

[pip]

I think the image we see on the carpet is being transferred from the plastic bag onto the carpet from the heat in the car plus the early stage fluids being purged. From the looks of the carpet in the trunk there was not a lot of fluid but enough to make that impression. These would have started right away in the 130 to 200 degree heat during the day. And don't forget, too, this image is not visible to the naked eye. If the body had been in the trunk a week or longer you would know it was in there because a stained outline would have been very visible on the trunk carpet. So when an expert says 2.6 days I would tend to agree with him.

The squirrel experiment was not done in Florida and do we even know in what month it was done? Plus the doctor said there was no odor from the squirrel. After 10 days there was nothing left but a skelton and a lot of fur, which I believe he said at the Frye Hearing. jmo

But the plastic bags were inside the laundry bag, so they weren't transferring the image. The stain was visible to the naked eye, George saw it and described it. Would the outline really be more visible if she were left there longer even though she was enclosed in 3 bags? CA also cleaned the trunk, so we don't really know how much material was sucked up via the lil green machine.
So after only 10 days the squirrel had nothing left but fur and skeleton (completely decayed, not in Florida heat in an undetermined month), but with 2.6 days in a sweltering trunk..she never reached stage 2 of decomp?? Does not compute. Just have lots of questions. I am not disputing the 2.6 day science, because the way I read it, 2.6 days is not a definite and finalized conclusion.

 

[Caligram]

But the plastic bags were inside the laundry bag, so they weren't transferring the image. The stain was visible to the naked eye, George saw it and described it. Would the outline really be more visible if she were left there longer even though she was enclosed in 3 bags? CA also cleaned the trunk, so we don't really know how much material was sucked up via the lil green machine.
So after only 10 days the squirrel had nothing left but fur and skeleton (completely decayed, not in Florida heat in an undetermined month), but with 2.6 days in a sweltering trunk..she never reached stage 2 of decomp?? Does not compute. Just have lots of questions. I am not disputing the 2.6 day science, because the way I read it, 2.6 days is not a definite and finalized conclusion.

All these bags holding some truths. I believe that the white plastic bag with that red stain on the outside was the one ICA had left in her trunk after she "disposed of Caylee. ICA thought that this would explain the odor in her car. The white garbage bag bag held non-decaying trash from AL's place, plus paper towels which she had used to clean her trunk. Apparently the A's along with the DT still prefer to explain the odor of the trunk as "rotting pizza", which is a rotten excuse that won't fly.

Caylee Marie Angelbabe....your "evidence" will explain it all and the jury will say "Oh, now I understand! How could she be so evil"