2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner
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aspiring drifter
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:maddening: Hate when real life takes time away from WS!
:twocents: Fantastic work on those pictures, hopefully there has been an enhancement performed because they tell quite a story. Caylee's foot placement seems to be in question: IMO the image could be obtained pre-or post-rigor, basically impossible to determine as outsiders since we are not privy to the dimensions of the vehicle and the "raw pattern" data. For sure tho' gravity did not pull down Caylee's foot/feet to leave a "traditional" pattern.
:twocents: The decomp rate and amount: IF Caylee was enclosed or COVERED by a plastic bag like a tent or a "greenhouse effect", the decomp rate could accelerate in the humidity/heat etc. but definitely the fluids would flow, again the "greenhouse effect". IMHO the "assists" to clean the vehicle permitted the fluid saturation to intensify into the carpet. Now who & when the vehicle was "cleaned" is up for discussion BUT I'm of the opinion that the felon made an attempt after disposing of Caylee. Depending upon the solution(s) utilized, the stain might have been "imprinted" beyond the primary "outline" from the acidic decomp fluid but definitely it did enhance the growth of mold/bacteria and virus population in & under the liner while the vehicle remained secured in the tow yard.
PS: That's also the time period when the MLD (minimal lethal dose) of "whatever used" killed off the primary invading critters BUT the new generations decided to "show up"/regenerate. (I an NOT an entomologist but have experienced picking up decomp saturated items and observing the "undersurface".
FWIW, totally agree that chloroform wasn't the fixative agent. Smart DH, Ynot, just like his beautiful wife!:seeya:
Not sure any of this answers the queries but like you all, just hypothesizing since I haven't seen the evidence.:banghead:
...just a thought and please forgive me if this has been mentioned which im sure it has been but in kiomarie's first interview with det. wells she says someone down the street on hopespring dr. is a carpet cleaner guy and well...if casey is willing to steal from papa and friends...well...then...that may say something about strangers/neighbors. but i would think something would have come out by now about that, like if hes had anything missing. she says who it is in the interview but i cant remember. sorry. perhaps he would have too many chemicals to really even notice something is missing. but we're dealing with chemicals here and you know "...casey's not that smart", per her friends and all. i mean, she added trash thinking that would help somehow.
Might not be the thread for it, but had a small thought today regarding the trash found in the trunk, and the laundry George said he saw during the gas can/trunk incident.
Maybe Casey just took what she saw first - if Caylee died while she was at Tony's, she says oh hey just taking out the trash hon, and stuffed it in the trunk in order to re-use the trash bag (thinking it wouldn't be linked to her if "caught", but to Tony). She isn't able to get to it till later though after the fluid purge occurs and then abandons the idea of using the white bag because she had no idea the body would decompose so quickly or purge as it did. It doesn't make sense to me why she didn't get rid of the white bag, but it's the only thing that explains to me how the bag could maybe come to have purge fluid which happens in a fairly specific amount of time - within the 2.6 days for sure, in that heat.
She goes into the house and grabs black trash bags (probably still "squicked" by the red stains) but one bag doesn't do it; enter bag #2. Still worried it's going to leak - or maybe the first bag does leak, and it's unwieldly, she sees the laundry hamper and decides it will do double duty - bag #3, then spreads the laundry around the trunk so if someone should see the laundry hamper well, it's just laundry.
complete destruction of theory - I don't remember the dates of any receipts found in the trash bag from Tony's. We only have GA's word on that he saw laundry in the trunk, so the clean up attempt had to happen previous to the scattered laundry. Could maybe explain the hits in the backyard if she set the bag elsewhere while cleaning the trunk, then discovered the leaky bag and THEN grabbed the laundry hamper before rushing out before GA/CA came home. Maybe the gas cans were an attempt to use the gas to clean the trunk, I don't recall if any of those compounds were found, or if that would react as a "fixative".
What is the artifact in the "armpit" area? All day this has looked to me like a nude body in a pullup but maybe it's just the shirt sleeve bunched up there? That doesn't jive with CA's comments about "not finding her clothes yet" though. WHY was she naked?
As for the angle of the foot.. it's not the "left" foot. I think the legs are crossed, one we can't see behind the other, and the other in front. "Hip" is actually the other "knee". Thus why the diaper area/hand are not as highly visible, there was some space under them to the car liner where less weight made an imprint due to positioning.
(sorry... I read often, but don't post much). Don't hurt me *runs and hides*
Maybe Casey just took what she saw first - if Caylee died while she was at Tony's, she says oh hey just taking out the trash hon, and stuffed it in the trunk in order to re-use the trash bag (thinking it wouldn't be linked to her if "caught", but to Tony). She isn't able to get to it till later though after the fluid purge occurs and then abandons the idea of using the white bag because she had no idea the body would decompose so quickly or purge as it did. It doesn't make sense to me why she didn't get rid of the white bag, but it's the only thing that explains to me how the bag could maybe come to have purge fluid which happens in a fairly specific amount of time - within the 2.6 days for sure, in that heat.
She goes into the house and grabs black trash bags (probably still "squicked" by the red stains) but one bag doesn't do it; enter bag #2. Still worried it's going to leak - or maybe the first bag does leak, and it's unwieldly, she sees the laundry hamper and decides it will do double duty - bag #3, then spreads the laundry around the trunk so if someone should see the laundry hamper well, it's just laundry.
complete destruction of theory - I don't remember the dates of any receipts found in the trash bag from Tony's. We only have GA's word on that he saw laundry in the trunk, so the clean up attempt had to happen previous to the scattered laundry. Could maybe explain the hits in the backyard if she set the bag elsewhere while cleaning the trunk, then discovered the leaky bag and THEN grabbed the laundry hamper before rushing out before GA/CA came home. Maybe the gas cans were an attempt to use the gas to clean the trunk, I don't recall if any of those compounds were found, or if that would react as a "fixative".
What is the artifact in the "armpit" area? All day this has looked to me like a nude body in a pullup but maybe it's just the shirt sleeve bunched up there? That doesn't jive with CA's comments about "not finding her clothes yet" though. WHY was she naked?
As for the angle of the foot.. it's not the "left" foot. I think the legs are crossed, one we can't see behind the other, and the other in front. "Hip" is actually the other "knee". Thus why the diaper area/hand are not as highly visible, there was some space under them to the car liner where less weight made an imprint due to positioning.
(sorry... I read often, but don't post much). Don't hurt me *runs and hides*
ynotdivein
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CarrieSis, don't ever feel :truce: about posting on a thread here! WS is about the most agreeable place you'll find.
Bumping an index for you, after which I'll get back to yours.
Bumping an index for you, after which I'll get back to yours.
ynotdivein
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OK, but the bags Caylee was in did not come from TL's place.
Agreed she didn't know how quickly Caylee's remains would decompose, but those remains were at best in black garbage bags from the Anthony home at at worst wrapped in the Pooh blanket Caylee loved.
The white bag from Tony's place was IMO added to her trunk after she had already tossed Caylee out of it into the swamp/dumping ground.
GA claims the gas can incident happened on June 24. IMO at that point Caylee had long been thrown into her final resting place. If GA says he saw laundry in the trunk on the 24th, IMO he is either "mis-remembering" or is straight out mis-truthing....
:cow:
ynotdivein
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Does anyone make anything of the dark band behind the curved white line on what would be Caylee's upper arm?
BBM (snipped for space)
I wonder I GA actually was near ICA and that car on 6/24, or was this already set up to bolster the A's claim that there was no decomp odor in the trunk. The entire gas can theft has always puzzled me, and that ICA rushed to get those cans back to GA on 6/24, but why? What was the big deal anyway about that so-called theft. Was something else missing days earlier from the shed, that GA decided to not mention.
IMO
Don't run. I think you are seeing what I am seeing, what I tried to describe in my previous post:
I have highlighted what I am seeing. Apologies for the shaky lines; my mouse went a little haywire. Look (in the non-highlighted version) at what I marked as the left hand and see if you can see fingers and a thumb. If you blow the image up a little it seems clearer.
ETA I relabeled the yellow areas of the image, as well.
Attachments
I have just finished reading the book"BRINGING ADAM HOME,".on page 281,the author talks of the image of Caylee,in the trunk of Casey's trunk.The image of Adam's head was seen in the carpet samples,of the perps back seat,over 25 years after the murder!!!! There is a picture also,in the center of the book.
wenwe4
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Thank you for highlighting!!!! I was also seeing this image as well and tried to post this info some pages back. The only thing that keeps me coming back to the side laying picture is the description from the lab techs in the emails. here's the link
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21151220/detail.html
also this image would mean she is facedown, legs crossed and her butt would be in air. Not to say that isn't what happened, just trying to keep in mind it is the negative of the trunk liner - thinking about what pressed against the liner and what was shielding or shading on the liner to create outlines . . .
ps: you did a fantastic job in outlining.
pss: I Love WS'rs because we just keep trying to bring Justice for Caylee!!!!
gogrannypop
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When the jury sees this I believe they will absolutely know that This dear baby was dead in her trunk. Long enough to leave a stain. Long enough to start decomposing.
IMHO, This should be the first thing the jury sees. Everything else is icing on the cake.
JMO
IMHO, This should be the first thing the jury sees. Everything else is icing on the cake.
JMO
Lemon thank you, that is EXACTLY what I was/am seeing!
I know my white trash bag theory isn't "great" but it is the only thing I can think of that fits why she still had it if it had purge fluid on it *after* the trunk had been cleaned. The trunk cleanup had to have taken place close to the time she bagged Caylee or immediately after getting rid of her.. but she had to have the laundry bag *before* getting rid of her, and the laundry from the bag would have had nasty on it too if it was put in before the trunk was cleaned. The gas cans were merely a possibility in what she might have tried to clean the trunk with when other stuff wasn't working.
Can someone remind me about the paper towels with adipocere on them? Were they found in the white trash bag or just in the trunk?
I know my white trash bag theory isn't "great" but it is the only thing I can think of that fits why she still had it if it had purge fluid on it *after* the trunk had been cleaned. The trunk cleanup had to have taken place close to the time she bagged Caylee or immediately after getting rid of her.. but she had to have the laundry bag *before* getting rid of her, and the laundry from the bag would have had nasty on it too if it was put in before the trunk was cleaned. The gas cans were merely a possibility in what she might have tried to clean the trunk with when other stuff wasn't working.
Can someone remind me about the paper towels with adipocere on them? Were they found in the white trash bag or just in the trunk?
wenwe4, you bring up a good pint about the techs. I initially saw the fetal position too and so do many others, so it may be the correct position after all. But that left hand... I could swear it's there - fingernails and all. Once I saw it I couldn't unsee it.
As for the image being of Caylee lying stomach-down, I could see it being the case. Toddlers are top heavy*. Picture the laundry bag with a cross legged and drugged/deceased Caylee in it. She is slumped forward (as much as the bag will allow, that is). KC sits the bag in the trunk. As the car moves, the body shifts forward because it is top heavy and forward slumped. As the body falls forward, it elongates/unslumps but the legs are still crossed. The upper body comes partway out of the bag. This leaves the wire from the laundry bag to make the mark across the chest area, the legs remain crossed but one is stretched out with a foot curved against the bottom of the bag. Again this makes me question where the trash bags come in though. Are they there the whole time? Added later? I like my theory of this image in the trunk but the trash bags keep tripping me up.
Darn it.
*For reference
http://www.yalemedicalgroup.org/stw/Page.asp?PageID=STW035710
"In most cases, the children landed head first, Smith noted, which "really makes this an issue that we should pay attention to." Children at that age are top-heavy, so when they fall they fall head first..."
I went to step away from the computer and something in your post grabbed me a certain way. The way you said "her butt would be in air" gave me the mental image of a sleeping baby. This is completely in the opposite direction of all my personal theories, but what if the trunk-as-babysitter theorists were right? The image we believe we see could fit a sleeping toddler who succumbed to the heat of the trunk and was left there for 2.6 days by someone who had no clue what to do upon finding her. Like I said, not my personal theory but I'll throw it out there.
LCoastMom
JUSTICE FOR CAYLEE MARIE - STILL WAITING
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THREE pieces if duct tape applied before the decomp event began don't support a baby sleeping in the trunk - neither do no scratches, attempted tears in the carpet/back of the seats.
Caylee would have fought being left in that trunk like a baby demon - it was not warm enough to kill her Monday evening (ICA left A Camp around 4/430 - was seen with TL at BB around 8 IIRC.
LambChop
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The napkins/paper towels were found in the white trash bag. TL stated in his depo that KC had taken HIS car through the car wash before picking him up. She may have thought to do this because it possible KC may have tried to wash the trunk out at the car wash, maybe hosed it down. Still stinking she thought about masking the smell with the gas cans. The stain on the bag is the same size and shape as GA mentions in his statement that it looked like the size of a basketball. It appears the trash bag was on the stained portion of the trunk and transferred to the bag. jmo
wenwe4
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do we have a reference to the temperatures that evening? (somewhere there is a timeline of events - maybe there?)
You bring up a very good theory about fighting like a baby demon, I am having 2 thoughts:
1) Caylee may have been accustomed to being in the trunk (this is highly unlikely imo)
2) Caylee was incapacitated in some way . . . a) chloroformed b) bound w/duct tape
LambChop
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Temperatures in a car can reach 131 to 172 degrees in 80 to 100 degree weather when sitting in the sun. Temperatures in June in Orlando average around 91 as a high and 71 as a low. So you figure the temperature in the trunk even at 6pm at night was over 100 degrees. Small child are more sensitive to heatstroke than older children and adults so at 100 degrees a toddler would expire within a short period of time in a closed trunk. jmo
wenwe4
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Wanna know the best news?
The missing cut out piece could be put back into the carpet sample and they could photograph again. The information (on the cutout piece) that we are missing on the upper right hand portion of the photo is somewhere within LE/Lab techs/SA's care/custody/control. Follow the chain of custody on both the large carpet liner and the missing portions and put them back together. Mystery solved. :great:
sumbunny
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I'm not sure if anyone has listed the ingredients in febreze but according to wiki (take with a grain of salt) the following chemicals are in the bottle.
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Febreze[/ame]
I'm not a scientist, but is there any form of chloroform in that?
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Febreze[/ame]
I'm not a scientist, but is there any form of chloroform in that?
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