2010.04.02 *SPECIFIC* Caylee's Position Inside Bags

[Cat13067]

Does anyone have the links to the old threads about the location of the bones? I am not sure that Caylee was ever in any of these bags. Also are there docs to support it? I know Ym said it appeared as though the bones were in the bag, but is there any doc that says the bones were indeed in the bag or bags? thanks

The skull tumbled out of the plastic bag as per RK. A skull is bone matter. I believe it was established that most of Caylee's bones were scattered about by animals. LE did an excellent job collecting most of Caylee's bones. I think their was one front tooth unaccounted for, and a few small finger/toes bones. I'm sure you can find the info you ae looking for at WFTV.com

 

[ynotdivein]

ak you are on the right track; check out first post on [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79981"]The Canvas Laundry Bag[/ame] thread for confirmation.

And please, peeps, revisit this report as it is essential reading! (Thanks treeseeker for the memory bump!) I am really now starting to revisit my previous assumptions.

HYPOTHESIS 1: Caylee wrapped in blanket; from there "scooted" feet first into garbage bag 1, then garbage bag 1 held by handles and placed in garbage bag 2. Double-bagged, she is now placed again feet first into laundry bag.

Q: Why double bag in the same direction?
A: To support her weight. Like when you get two 2-liter bottles of soda at the store.
Q: But the canvas laundry bag would have supported her weight even if only one garbage bag was used and even without garbage bags.
A: Hm. Well, what about

HYPOTHESIS 2: Caylee was wrapped in blanket, then scooted feet first into garbage bag 1, and then garbage bag 2 was shimmied down over her head which was at the top of the first garbage bag, perhaps because there was a spill during first transfer. Garbage bag 2 now has handles down at Caylee's feet. KC picks up garbage bag 2 handles and feeds entire package into laundry bag, resulting in Caylee being head down in laundry bag.

Feedback appreciated. I am officially kerfuffled. Anyone know how to add a poll to a thread after it has been started?

 

[txsvicki]

It would be a lot easier to put the first plastic bag over the head first then slide it down.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

The canvas laundry bag would also be easier to carry, even held in the arms, as opposed to trying to carry around a body in plastic bags alone. I'm thinking she was double-bagged first inside the plastic bags, then she and the plastic bags were plunked into the canvas laundry bag. Much easier to carry and less conspicuous during the initial event. Who would suspect Casey had Caylee in that bag?

My suspicions are based on Caylee being killed inside the Anthony home.

I'd have to think more about the situation: house vs. car.

I think she could have taken more care in placing her inside those bags if the event happened inside the home rather than the car. Putting her into the bags after she was dead in the car would have been more difficult. Thoughts?

 

[Zoe Bogart]

I was just looking around for something to "experiment" with when I noticed my 14-year-old cat sitting near me. Of course I didn't stuff her into a bag, but just thinking how to do it, I realized I would put the bag over her head first, and then close it. I guess the reason for that would be to be able to dump the legs in without much trouble. If someone is put into a bag feet first, there's the problem of legs and arms going every which way, especially limp arms & legs. And how would Casey have done that by herself?

Even in movies and TV shows, when someone is bagged, it's usually head first, right? Does anyone know any Mafia goons who dispose of people?

By the way, I don't have any little children to experiment with, just a fully-grown daughter, the cat, and a big dog. Is anyone else willing to stuff a family member for WS? I guess not.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Harmony2, you made a very good point - the indignity is important to understand. Head first into the canvas bag suggests, to me, possible hesitancy on KCs part to handle her child's body. More handling, such as any stuffing or arranging, would indicate less hesitancy. This would give me, in my mind, a more complete idea of how intentional Caylee's death was. Given that KC apparently had no visceral reaction - cool as a cucumber after borrowing the neighbor's shovel - well, top it with any sort of complicated body arrangement, suggests a more intentional act.

I'm certainly no psychiatrist, and I could be completely wrong in my thinking.

I'm thinking it was more a matter of get it done and over with, rather than loving care, or anything else.

Head first would eliminate the need to gather arms and legs, as putting someone feet-first would require. Putting someone in feet first could be cumbersome, even with legs and feet bound, because you'd have to make sure everything goes in the right way, so the body could bend properly and the bags could be closed.

Now, head-first, you get the heaviest parts in first, head and trunk, then you just stuff in the extras (arms, legs) to make them fit nice and cozy. See what I mean?

I wonder if my daughter would be willing to be my guinea pig? Of course I'd need a very large bag.........

Stuffing someone who's already in plastic bags could go either way into this bag. I don't think she was too particular - just grab and dump, especially if she had been in the trunk for a while just in the plastic bags:

I think some of us are giving KC too much credit. KC just wanted to be rid of the evidence, no loving care at all. I do think the rectangular bag would allow for more 'careful' placement than this one.

 

[Harmony 2]

Does anyone have the links to the old threads about the location of the bones? I am not sure that Caylee was ever in any of these bags. Also are there docs to support it? I know Ym said it appeared as though the bones were in the bag, but is there any doc that says the bones were indeed in the bag or bags? thanks

page 3 osteological report

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801867/detail.html

 

[Harmony 2]

Another thing to consider is that one of the trash bags was cinched and the other one was left untied.

page 7 of M.E. report http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...sIhLjw&sig=AHIEtbRF27GTHFEdvL3X7NOIJmpmourRYw

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Another thing to consider is that one of the trash bags was cinched and the other one was left untied.

page 7 of M.E. report http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...sIhLjw&sig=AHIEtbRF27GTHFEdvL3X7NOIJmpmourRYw

Thank you. Very helpful, indeed.

 

[wenwe4]

Another thing to consider is that one of the trash bags was cinched and the other one was left untied.

page 7 of M.E. report http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...sIhLjw&sig=AHIEtbRF27GTHFEdvL3X7NOIJmpmourRYw

Not sure this means the garbage bag was never tied as there was a piece of yellow tie handle found nearby, therefore if it were tied at one point, it had lost tension. Interesting to note the tied bag was tied with a loop and 2 loose ends. Also, bones were found inside the black plastic bags , those bags were intermingled with the laundry bag. No mention of bones inside the laundry bag. This solves the issue of black bags inside vs. outside of the laundry bag (at least for me).

 

[Chiquita71]

Bumped for information purposes.

 

[wenwe4]

Bumpity bump - compare and contrast with stains in the trunk thread (I still think those two threads go together).

 

[AZlawyer]

Will preface this by saying, I have completely confused myself and no longer have any firm idea of anything--what Caylee was wrapped in when she was in the trunk OR what direction she was placed in the bags.

But I did notice this:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8505&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1270348340

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8506&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1270348376

Hope I copied the images correctly. Bumping for discussion in connection with the "stain in trunk" thread. I think ynot figured out the source of the "line" across Caylee's upper torso in the image in the trunk. If so, Caylee's body was in the laundry bag head-first with her back toward the bottom of the laundry bag photo and her knees toward the top.

Unless I messed that up in my head.

ETA: OK, larger images can be seen if you go to ynot's original post.

 

[Just Jayla]

I agree with the poster who noted that she may have been bagged in the same direction. In all three bags, IMO-Let me see if I can describe:

-She is bagged head first into the first bag, causing her legs to sort of fold over her trunk and head when the bag is picked up-ties on the bag may have broken at the point, KC needs another bag.

-If she goes to bag in the opposite direction, Caylee's feet are now at the bottomof the second bag with her trunk weight bearing down against her legs and feet-A little awkward.

-Rather, the second bag goes in the same direction to support the weight of her upper body without shifting the contents of the first bag too much. Furthermore, trash is much easier to bag when the heavier elements are at the bottom, gravity persists.

-The whole thing goes into the laundry bag as is, with Caylee head and torso down, maybe bent a little so she would actually be on her back/shoulder blades if the trash/laundry bags were set upright....

-But, the trash and laundry bags were not set upright in the trunk, it would have been laid on its side for room, maybe elongating Caylee's body a bit.

-Animals get to the bag and drag away Caylee's lower extremities first and then torso, while there is still flesh, as the spine was found together in a manner that indicated she had not fully decomposed at that time. Had she fully decomposed, animals would not necessarily be attracted anyway (duh, Jayla). Legs, buttocks and torso (with exception to the intestines which animals tend to avoid) are the fleshiest part of the body and would be most desireable to scavengers (Sorry, sweet Caylee).

The coming and going of water, nature's force which is strong enough to erode mountains, allows the skull to float in any given direction. As the lower extremities have been puled out and the skull pulled toward the opening of the bag, the bottom of the bag is lighter and floats higher than the front of the bag holding the skull when water moves in-thus Roy noting that the skull may have been at the lip of or under the bag. (my paraphrase)
Keeping in mind that her skull was only 6" in height, it probably was not very weighty, but had more weight than the empty portion of the bag.

 

[ynotdivein]

Well heck. I had just convinced myself once and for all that the reason her foot is curved up in the stain is because it was at the bottom of the bags! :crazy:

If she were placed headfirst into the garbage bags, and one of those bags was cinched and tied over her feet, might it still have had that upward-curving effect on the positioning of her little foot?

I wonder how much detail will be provided to us on this subject at the hearings this week? I guess not much, as SA won't want to give away their full "storyline" of what Caylee endured until trial...

 

[wenwe4]

I did a lot of drawing on the bag over a year ago - see page 1 on this thread for visuals.

 

[nyvictoria]

If Caylee was put in the laundry bag head first, are we to surmise that she was placed in the garbage bags head first as well? Because why would you bag something, feet first, and then flip it upside down for the top of the garbage bag to leak into the bottom if the laundry bag. Sorry I'm just trying to better understand.

I always thought feet first. Head first in either canvas or laundry bag doesn't make sense to me. But none of this tragedy makes sense to me.

ETA: We can't take into account how the blanket factored into these items either.

bbm

I hate to say this because I don't like equating Caylee's remains with trash (even though Casey did) but...

When I bag my trash, I put the kitchen trash bag inside a larger black bag. I always put the kitchen bag in with the drawstring side down. I don't know why I do this because what you said makes sense, garbage can leak out into the bottom of the black bag. It's just a habit I developed.

Trying to apply any logic to Casey just makes me crazy.

 

[TallyHo]

Hope I copied the images correctly. Bumping for discussion in connection with the "stain in trunk" thread. I think ynot figured out the source of the "line" across Caylee's upper torso in the image in the trunk. If so, Caylee's body was in the laundry bag head-first with her back toward the bottom of the laundry bag photo and her knees toward the top.

Unless I messed that up in my head.

ETA: OK, larger images can be seen if you go to ynot's original post.

So are we thinking that the line was caused by a wire or drawstring from the laundry bag? Or possibly even one of the drawstrings from one of the garbage bags? Sorry, I couldn't find that original post!! :crazy:

 

[Solace]

Hope I copied the images correctly. Bumping for discussion in connection with the "stain in trunk" thread. I think ynot figured out the source of the "line" across Caylee's upper torso in the image in the trunk. If so, Caylee's body was in the laundry bag head-first with her back toward the bottom of the laundry bag photo and her knees toward the top.

Unless I messed that up in my head.

ETA: OK, larger images can be seen if you go to ynot's original post.

I had the impression that she was not bagged in the trunk for a while. This is quite an impression on the rug - which meant that the purging was quite a bit - no? - for it to seep through the bagging and onto the rug.

Why do I have the impression that she was not in a bag in the trunk until later.

But on another thread, I just read that at the time of death bowels, bladder relax and flow starts. The odor is supposedly awful, per the poster. So I can see if she is in this laundry bag at first and allowed to sit in the trunk for three days and the purging starts later that this would cause an outline. I thought she returned home to double bag Caylee; she probably went home to get a large black garbage bag - I think this is what they also found.

 

[ynotdivein]

So are we thinking that the line was caused by a wire or drawstring from the laundry bag? Or possibly even one of the drawstrings from one of the garbage bags? Sorry, I couldn't find that original post!! :crazy:

It's post #35 on this thread--I tried to quote it but the attachment/images didn't come through which sort of defeated the purpose.