2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[Donjeta]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Kaine set the train in motion. But he has no right to trample over things to get what he wants because he was the first one to steal off with the baby. He is making claims that so far have been unsubstantiated. He is now further attempting to force his wife to answer them in a civil court because, as many wiser people than me have stated, a criminal case could take years. That is unfair.

Resolve his divorce because he feels he needs one. But to make Terri testify in a manner which exposes her to incrimination (Thank you to whoever posted the links to why you should never talk to the police!) is just ridiculous.

Do you feel that applying for restraining orders if you're feeling threatened is trampling over the respondent's rights in any other cases as well or just when Kaine does it?

In every RO case the person who feels threatened is forcing the respondent to choose whether to contest it in court or not, and I don't see why Terri and Kaine should be any different.

IMO if you feel threatened by another person and the law gives you the opportunity to apply for the limited protection that a restraining order can give you can't be forced to give up that right just because it's awkward for the respondent who might or might not some day be charged for something.

 

[rnmif]

Mr. Houze routinely defends very wealthy, high profile clients. He does not want for any clients. He defends people who CAN and DO pay up front. Geragos asked for and got paid in advance to defend Scott Peterson. His parents expected all the siblings to take out second mortgages to help pay Geragos.

If you don't pay your mechanic, you don't get your car back. If you have no insurance, it is indeed routine for a dentist or doctor to want to be paid at the time of service. I used to work for a dentist and not only did we expect to be paid up front by uninsureds, but we asked for the portion the insurance didn't cover for our insured patients.

If Terri cannot pay Houze halfway through the trial, and he is compelled to finish, how can he collect from her? All she needs to do is file bankruptcy.

If he is smart, and I think we all agree he is, he will get paid up front.

There are several of Houze's notorious clients who paid an initial retainer, including the undeniably guilty Dr. Death. His wife is still slaving away at the same clinic in Hillsboro to pay off his legal debts.

I didn't say not pay for services, I said not pay in full in *advance* of services. Two different issues.

If Houze is smart (and we know he is) he knows there are multiple ways to profit from representing a client.

 

[debs]

Nope,, the "train was set in motion" by police. They told Kaine, that while they were investigating his missing son, they found someone who claims Terri Tried to hire him to kill Kaine. And if there is evidence that resembles each other...between this and the "sexting" case...they have MORE than this Landscaper's word!

WRONG. Just because LE has told Kaine that does not mean Terri has to answer questions regarding such a claim in a divorce proceeding, especially in a no-fault divorce. Forcing her onto a witness stand to make any statement regarding a supposed criminal event is forcing someone to potentially incriminate themselves. Period. The law states we are protected by that, 5th amendment rights. Even by claiming the 5th, they have received testimony from Terri, testimony they DO NOT DESERVE in a civil matter such as divorce.

Once again, if Teri "incriminates" herself...it means there was SOMETHING THERE...something that shows she was party to hurting or hiding Kyron.

WRONG AGAIN. It means she was foolish enough to answer questions that have nothing to do with her divorce from Kaine. Even if she answers "I did nothing to Kyron" is evidence in a criminal proceeding. Please watch that link that was posted upthread. Please.

Hurrah! I'd celebrate that! Kyron deserves justice. His parents deserve to know.

Absolutely. But his parents don't deserve to trample upon the rights of Terri because she sits in the seat of "most hated woman in Portland" right now. There is nothing which has been brought, by LE or the grand jury, which states that Terri is the one who did anything to Kyron. Her lawyer stating she is the "de facto suspect" is just putting an end to the pussyfooting going on right now. There are a lot of people accusing her and not one of them has brought anything which says "She unequivocally did this." And she doesn't have to bring whatever piece might be missing. Frankly, it isn't ABOUT Kyron's rights in this divorce proceeding. Don't make it about me being callous about Kyron; the little boy is gone somewhere and people who love him miss him and want him home. But that isn't the point being argued here.

If looking at where she gets a possible;e $350, 000 leads to evidence she sold him to child pornographers or she put him at risk by making money in an illegal way...HURRAH! Let it happen.

There is nothing "unfair" if it provides information in this case IMO.

If there is nothing there...the Landscaper is a liar, the Police fools, the money. legit...she will come out of it like Gold! Hurrah! to that too.

I do not advocate protecting Terri before Kyron.

But they don't get to ask these questions in a divorce proceeding. That is for the Grand Jury to present and LE to enforce. And being disingenuous to suggest that if Terri is innocent it will all come out in the wash is just that......disingenuous. We all know it doesn't work like that. But the law is in place to protect the people. Not the guilty or innocent. But the people. WE are the people.

 

[stmarysmead]

"the little boy is gone somewhere and people who love him miss him and want him home. But that isn't the point being argued here".

I understand your point and respect that we differ.

But here we disagree. To me, getting information is the only point that matters. If Kaine can find a way to get information from this divorce case that helps find Kyron and bring some modicum of peace...I say"Go for it!"

In another situation, a normal divorce situation, I would no doubt agree with you. But I believe in LE at this point, not Terri.

I believe, as Desiree does, that Terri is hiding something. I also want Baby K protected till this MURDER FOR HIRE thing is totally discredited. Frankly, I also want Kaine protected too. Being "cheap"/and or "controlling" does not allow your wife to decide to order a death sentence.

If you are right, and they "don't get to ask those questions in the divorce proceedings"...then ..THEY WON'T. So we needn't even debate it. It won't happen.

But if they find a way to legally do it...I'll be very pleased.

Kyron first.

Terri is an adult with a great attorney. Kyron is a small child God knows where.

We need every bit of information we can glean.

Kyron first.

 

[DairyGirl]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Kaine set the train in motion. But he has no right to trample over things to get what he wants because he was the first one to steal off with the baby. He is making claims that so far have been unsubstantiated. He is now further attempting to force his wife to answer them in a civil court because, as many wiser people than me have stated, a criminal case could take years. That is unfair.

Resolve his divorce because he feels he needs one. But to make Terri testify in a manner which exposes her to incrimination (Thank you to whoever posted the links to why you should never talk to the police!) is just ridiculous.

How can she incriminate herself if she is innocent? And why should Kaine have to wait years to protect himself and his daughter, not to mention get answers to the questions about Kyron's disappearance if she is involved?

 

[rnmif]

IMO Terri's lawyers probably know there is something other than rumors and gossip against her because they've labeled her as a suspect in court documents and implied that there may be a criminal case against her coming up although LE never said that in as many words.

If they were convinced that there was just rumors and gossip in way of evidence I don't understand this strategy at all. Shouldn't they be saying how ridiculous it is that anyone thinks their client may have done anything to that child she loves and pointing out that no one has produced any real evidence against her whatsoever?

They called her a de facto suspect. Neither word nor deed has shown that LE is actively and aggressively pursuing any other suspect with the intensity they appear to be pursuing TH.

 

[citigirl]

I think that if Terr appeared at this hearing to try to repair her public image, it really backfired. With her criminal attorney on one side and divorce attorney on the other, surrounded by deputy sheriffs, she looked like a criminal.. It looked like a perp walk. I can't imagine why she came to this hearing that she did not have to attend.

Her demands to delay the trial and refusal to say where she got this money make her look even worse. And...if she hasn't committed a crime, how can she incriminate herself by testifying under oath?

 

[Jo in Calif]

I thought she was not contesting the divorce? Why would she have to answer any questions as to why Kaine is divorcing her?

 

[Donjeta]

WRONG. Just because LE has told Kaine that does not mean Terri has to answer questions regarding such a claim in a divorce proceeding, especially in a no-fault divorce. Forcing her onto a witness stand to make any statement regarding a supposed criminal event is forcing someone to potentially incriminate themselves. Period. The law states we are protected by that, 5th amendment rights. Even by claiming the 5th, they have received testimony from Terri, testimony they DO NOT DESERVE in a civil matter such as divorce.

IMO Kaine's reasons for choosing to separate from Terri and the alleged information he's got from LE are certainly very relevant for the restraining order case and even Terri's lawyer chose to consider them relevant in the divorce as far as the abatement suit is concerned.

IMO if a person feels threatened and wants a civil case for a restraining order he/she has the right to file for it for his/her and their children's protection regardless of how much the person threatening him/her/them might fear incriminating himself. It's not the RO petitioner's duty to look after the respondent's rights in any future criminal trials that might be filed and it's not up to them to worry about how bad the RO suit might make the respondent look.

No one would ever get any ROs if it was only okay to file for one if it made the respondent look like Mother Theresa.

WRONG AGAIN. It means she was foolish enough to answer questions that have nothing to do with her divorce from Kaine. Even if she answers "I did nothing to Kyron" is evidence in a criminal proceeding. Please watch that link that was posted upthread. Please.

So if she says "I did nothing to Kyron" it can prove she did something to Kyron and falsely convict her? How?

Absolutely. But his parents don't deserve to trample upon the rights of Terri because she sits in the seat of "most hated woman in Portland" right now. There is nothing which has been brought, by LE or the grand jury, which states that Terri is the one who did anything to Kyron. Her lawyer stating she is the "de facto suspect" is just putting an end to the pussyfooting going on right now. There are a lot of people accusing her and not one of them has brought anything which says "She unequivocally did this." And she doesn't have to bring whatever piece might be missing. Frankly, it isn't ABOUT Kyron's rights in this divorce proceeding. Don't make it about me being callous about Kyron; the little boy is gone somewhere and people who love him miss him and want him home. But that isn't the point being argued here.



But they don't get to ask these questions in a divorce proceeding. That is for the Grand Jury to present and LE to enforce. And being disingenuous to suggest that if Terri is innocent it will all come out in the wash is just that......disingenuous. We all know it doesn't work like that. But the law is in place to protect the people. Not the guilty or innocent. But the people. WE are the people.

In fact, everyone is the people but Kaine who hasn't got the right to file for a restraining order because Terri feels her rights trampled by it.

 

[citigirl]

How can she incriminate herself if she is innocent? And why should Kaine have to wait years to protect himself and his daughter, not to mention get answers to the questions about Kyron's disappearance if she is involved?

Dairy Girl, your post wasn't up before I started mine. We have asked an excellent question. I would really like to hear an answer from Terri's attorney(s).

 

[cluciano63]

I think she will end up not contesting anything at this point, and worrying about visitation later on. Kaine won't get to hear from her on the stand. There is no way her lawyer will allow her to speak about June 4th when she is clearly a suspect and not yet even charged. Kaine won't be able to get information about Kyron this way, though I am sure he felt he had to try.

 

[stmarysmead]

We often hear people say (and certainly I have said) ..."If my child were missing I would do ANYTHING!

"I would go anywhere, try anything, submit to anything, I would turn the world upside down!"

Usually, most people applaud these sentiments. We understand. WE identify. Our hearts overflow for these families in pain.

But now here's Kaine.

And he is doing everything to get any bit of information from the wife that he believes is not cooperating to find his boy...the wife POLICE say tried to have him killed...the wife who told him she failed her Lie Detector test more than once.

He is perhaps planning to use the divorce proceedings to get info out of Terri.

Is he given the benefit of the doubt that he is just trying to help find his boy? That he is a desperate parent? Nope... everything is interpreted as just a terrible abuse of his wonderful sexting wife who police say tried to kill him.

Kaine's pain...his missing child...his need to protect Baby K...is second to... Terri's "rights."

So I guess the support given to parents of missing children, desperate to find them is...qualified. If we don't like them...they aren't getting either support or sympathy.

Kaine need not apply. He needs to consider Terri before Kyron because well, he might be "cheap". he might be "controlling"...or other things that upset us.

Information to find Kyron...must come second to Terri...or we hate Kaine. Kaine better not try "doing anything, anywhere" to find his son.

This is a teaching moment for sure.

 

[Billylee]

I think it's interesting that the restraining order violation hearing is set before the other two motions.

What happens when someone violates part of a restraining order? She showed MC a copy of it and he showed it to someone else and it was supposed to be kept private as ordered by the judge. What happens to Terri? Does she go to jail for that? Is there some fine? I have no idea, but I still find it weird that MC has not been called before the grand jury in this regard AND whomever he showed it to.

If he hasn't been called before the GJ, is it because they feel it's not pertinent to Kyron's case, just the divorce case? And, if that's so, then why was the landscaper asked to testify before the GJ, as that has to do with the divorce and MFHP, not Kyron (that we know of).

On another note, if the first thing brought up in the second two motions in October, is where did Terri get whatever money she paid and/or committed to pay an attorney, and the attorney offers up proof that it came from someone else (such as TH's family mortgaging their home) and had nothing to do with Kaine's assets or joint assets held with Terri. Then isn't that the end of that.

And then if the judge says, okay two year abatement approved, we're back to square one.

However if the judge opens with disapproving the postponement of the divorce. Then we go directly into reasons for the divorce, correct? What did Kaine put down when he filed as cause "fear of bodily harm?" I'm sure it wasn't irreconcilable differences was it? If Terri doesn't contest the divorce, does that make her guilty of the MFHP in the laws eyes? This is such a web!

 

[Billylee]

What kind of an effect could she have hoped for that look to have on Kaine?

I suppose that would depend upon whether she is guilty or not. (Not only hasn't she been tried, she hasn't even been charged with anything.)

 

[Donjeta]

I think we should give Terri's lawyers a little more credit. With two lawyers worth more than $350,000 on her side I just don't see them ignoring any illegal attacks against her rights. Kaine would not have worry about being the watchdog to keep Terri's rights untrampled as he's got no legal training and cannot be expected to be the expert on the relevant case law. Both parties, however, are represented by competent attorneys and I'm sure that if Bunch and Houze see any of their client's rights being trampled over they will be all over it and point out the illegality of Kaine's or Rackner's arguments. (Otherwise Terri paid them far too much.) The judge would presumably also know the law and recognize the merit of the respondent's arguments against Kaine's illegal ones.

 

[Donjeta]

I think it's interesting that the restraining order violation hearing is set before the other two motions.

What happens when someone violates part of a restraining order? She showed MC a copy of it and he showed it to someone else and it was supposed to be kept private as ordered by the judge. What happens to Terri? Does she go to jail for that? Is there some fine? I have no idea, but I still find it weird that MC has not been called before the grand jury in this regard AND whomever he showed it to.

The remedial sanctions they asked for are listed in this pdf: http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

In short:
- Full disclosure of who was given the RO information directly or indirectly
-order of compliance
-Sanctions such as a fine for each day that she's in contempt, compensation for the costs and losses caused for the petitioner, possible probation or a confinement for the duration of the contempt or up to six months (whichever is shorter)

If he hasn't been called before the GJ, is it because they feel it's not pertinent to Kyron's case, just the divorce case? And, if that's so, then why was the landscaper asked to testify before the GJ, as that has to do with the divorce and MFHP, not Kyron (that we know of).

It would be interesting to know for sure that MC hasn't testified. Maybe he will. Have we been told either way?

Dunno. If he doesn't testify it might be that the LS had things to say about Terri's state of mind and possible motives before Kyron disappeared and if MC only learned to know her afterwards he didn't know as much.

On another note, if the first thing brought up in the second two motions in October, is where did Terri get whatever money she paid and/or committed to pay an attorney, and the attorney offers up proof that it came from someone else (such as TH's family mortgaging their home) and had nothing to do with Kaine's assets or joint assets held with Terri. Then isn't that the end of that.

And then if the judge says, okay two year abatement approved, we're back to square one.

However if the judge opens with disapproving the postponement of the divorce. Then we go directly into reasons for the divorce, correct? What did Kaine put down when he filed as cause "fear of bodily harm?" I'm sure it wasn't irreconcilable differences was it? If Terri doesn't contest the divorce, does that make her guilty of the MFHP in the laws eyes? This is such a web!

I am not a lawyer but I wouldn't think so. IIRC her lawyer already said that she wasn't contesting the divorce per se and I'm sure he wouldn't have said it if it was akin to admitting her guilt in the MFP plot. Couldn't they argue that the MFP was a bunch of hooey but in the light of these accusations Terri had naturally no wish to stay married to her accuser any longer?

 

[BeanE]

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Poli...-98369624.html

"The motion also states police told Kaine that Terri exchanged hundred of text messages with Cook and several photographs of Terri Horman "in various stages of undress and graphic sexual activity." According to the filing, the "sexual nature" of the relationship between Cook and Terri Horman began on or about June 30, four days after Kaine Horman moved out of the family's Northwest Portland home.

Cook was a high school classmate of Kaine Horman, and also helped organize the first vigil for missing 7-year-old Kyron Horman.


****!!!Monday's court filing also stated that police had told Kaine that Terri's "sexual overtures to Mr. Cook resemble those made to the man Respondent (Terri Horman) attempted to hire to murder Petitioner (Kaine)."



That last sentence.....there really is no logical or grammatical way to interpret that except that "sexual overtures" resembling each other were made in both instances.

Hi marysmead That sounds as if you're saying that all sexual overtures are the same, and that they can only be communicated or relayed in one way. I can tell you from personal experience that that's not so. :angel:

Let me give you an example of how the exact same type of sexual overture can be made, but communicated or relayed in entirely different ways.

Let's say my landscaper is in my house, and I stand in front of him and take off my clothes. That's a sexual overture, and it's one of a certain type, and it's relayed in person.

Now let's say I'm home alone, and I get lonely, so I fire up my cell phone and start texting my hubby's old friend from high school. I'm in the mood for love, but he's miles away, so how do I convey to him that I'm interested in some texting of a different kind?

Well, I use my sexual overture method of choice - I stand up and take off my clothes. Then I take a pic of myself and send it to him via my cell phone.

That's a sexual overture, and it's the exact same type, and it's relayed via a pic sent over a cell phone.

For the landscaper, LE knows about my sexual overture of choice because the landscaper has told them.

For my hubby's old friend from HS, LE knows about my sexual overture of choice because they have the cell phone records.

I really don't understand the insistence that because Terri made sexual overtures to both men that resembled each other, that texting was the only way to accomplish it.

Not only is it not so, I also don't understand why it matters whether it was in person, over the phone, or by... smoke signals.

In fact, I don't understand why it matters whether they were similar or not. It seems to me it would be simply the making of any sexual overtures that mattered. That alone shows a possible pattern of behavior, and I would think what LE found interesting about it (from a legal standpoint) is the possible manipulation involved.

 

[Donjeta]

Not only is it not so, I also don't understand why it matters whether it was in person, over the phone, or by... smoke signals.

IMO it might matter quite a lot because if it was in person or by smoke signals it's just a matter of he said she said by now but if it was sexting LE have proof.

 

[Morag]

There's been a lot of talk about Terri's rights in this case, particularly her right not to testify in any way.

I would ask those who say her right is unimportant when it comes to Kyron's fate: How would you "get answers" from her? Would you waterboard her? Would you torture her? Would you lock her up in a closet with no food or water?

If she chooses to exercise her rights, what can be done about it, no matter how little we/you like it/her?

Of course, everyone wants little Kyron to be found, even Terri, since she is presumed to be innocent. What if the State tortures Terri for information and gets nothing or not enough? Who gets dragged to the torture chamber next? That way lies madness.

JMO- and that of the Founding Fathers

 

[Donjeta]

Talking about waterboarding and torturing serve to make Terri out to be the victim of most cruel injustice but IMO it confuses the issue. Laura Rackner and Kaine Horman did not file for her to be tortured and waterboarded. They have filed for a divorce, a restraining order, contempt of court, wanted her to disclose where she got 350 000 dollars and stated that they were against an abatement of the divorce case. If some or all of those filings constitute a threat to Terri Horman's legal rights I am sure that her attorneys are on top of it and will make a good case to defend her rights and get the illegal claims dismissed in short order.