2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[MarieFaith]

By (finally) publicly seeking visitation, Terri's image is being softened and made to be more motherly. As her lawyers anticipate choosing a jury, (assuming they are put in this position) this is something they would want, especially if the sexting allegations are true and if they come out in trial.

Also, as for Kaine, the public statements he and Desiree have made about Terri could come back to haunt him if she can claim that those statements prevent her from getting a fair trial (again, assuming this is down the road). So, he could see his now being more open publicly to visitation, (as opposed to just saying, "hell, no!") as a way to counteract other statements and add more balance. A balanced climate for a trial, if at all possible, is in his best interests and Kyron's.

I write this as someone who believes that Terri is in some way responsible for Kyron's disappearance. But this doesn't mean that she doesn't have feelings of need and attachment for her own flesh and blood, and probably really does want to see her daughter.

I just hope whoever makes a decision in this issue will keep the little girl's needs (and safety!) foremost in mind, and not Terri's perceived wants and needs.

 

[Trt]

I am not saying there is no need for them to go to court. Nothing like that.

I am talking about how these attorneys, none of whom are lightweights, are working within the system, as they should, meeting with each other, discussing, negotiating, etc, and then going to court (when necessary - they were already able to avoid the time and costs of two hearings).

There is no circumvention to it. Attorneys of the caliber of all of these work together prior to court appearances, and save the judge's time and taxpayers' money, as these attorneys have done all along.

If we term this circumvention, then Kaine and his attorney are also circumventing. Some of these meetings have even taken place in Rackner's office.

But there's no circumvention to it. They are all doing their jobs, as attorneys of this caliber do.

The RO is the only way that Terri can see her child. Agreeing to meet with Terri's atorneys and then declining the illegal pleadings of allowing Terri to see her child (apart from a court proceeding) isn't circumvention, IMO. Once again, Kaine nor his lawyer can allow Terri to see her child without going through the court system. Therefore, IMO, asking Kaine and his lawyer to allow something that they have no power to allow IS an attempt to circumvent the judicial measures that are already in place with this RO.

Legal wrangling that happens between attornies is a moot point here since a judge's decision (after a motion from either party) is the ONLY thing that can allow Terri access to her child. There are some very specific things that Terri has to do to see her child and speaking with Kaine and his lawyer to try and make it happen is not within her options that she has.

Both Kaine and Laura Rackner would have been in violation of the law had they agreed to allow Terri access to baby K. Thus her request was a circumvention of the system, imo.

 

[believe09]

Terri Moulton Horman seeks regular visits with her daughter


Terri Moulton Horman is seeking regular and frequent contact with her 22-month-old daughter K, who she hasn't seen since her husband left the home with the girl on June 26 and two days later filed for a restraining order and divorce.

In a motion filed in Multnomah County Circuit Court this week, Terri Horman's attorney Peter Bunch argues that his client is the primary caregiver for K. He says he'll offer expert testimony about the importance of K's well being of maintaining a relationship with his mother.

Terri Horman "is not in a position at this time to testify on her own behalf in support of an award of custody and parenting time," her lawyer said, because of the ongoing criminal investigation into 7-year-old Kyron Horman's disappearance.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/terri_moulton_horman_seeks_reg_1.html

Well this doesnt seem very reasonable does it? I dont think they stand a chance, but I think they filed it based upon public opinion regarding her not challenging the RO.

 

[Trt]

Was evidence shown, though? Or did Kaine simply say he believed X and Y to be true? Based on lengthy discussions about ROs and whatnot, I haven't viewed the granting of a RO as a barometer by which evidence can be judged.

Remember the hilarious David Letterman example?

The David Letterman RO can only be compared to another standard RO and not the FAPA RO as described by Oregon law. The law clearly states that for an FAPA RO to be granted, a petitioner must participate in an ex parte hearing within 24 hours of petition to provide evidence as to why he felt an RO was in order. Thus there was evidence presented(subject to standard preponderance as is standard with civil proceedings) and Terri would have to answer to the evidence that Kaine provided in order to have the RO dismissed(time passed) or modified.

Jmo

 

[For The Kids]

well aedrys, she is the child's mother so she has every right to seek visitation. I don't doubt for one second that she truly wants to see her child. Guilty or innocent, i don't have any reason to think she doesn't love her child. None of these things are necessarily mutually exclusive.

What a pity she didnt love Kyron more..then both she and Kaine could see there children whenever they wanted.

JMO

 

[Really]

I believe that Terri's attorneys are trying to 'soften' her image as previously stated. If Terri REALLY wanted to see her child, she would have contested the RO from the very start. This would be the ONLY thing that Terri has done since Kyron disappeared to show her as a caring individual. Indeed, it is the ONE thing that many of us as parents cannot comprehend is not moving mountains to see your child. By the same token, her lawyers are trying to find out what LE has, and this may be a way to force their hand a bit. Don't think it'll work but it does appear that there's a great wall of silence when it comes to what LE has gathered these past few months.

Terri didn't contest the RO because she would have to speak to LE, in moo she can't face them without telling what she knows. I believe she knows everything about what happened to Kyron. I do find it strange that her parents, friends and family are not out screaming her innocence and offering public support for Terri. Wouldn't you think they'd be all up in arms considering she lost her step-son, her husband split with her daughter and she is possibly facing legal action on many fronts?? WHERE is her public support??

 

[For The Kids]

she has to put her own oxygen mask on first.she has to look at this more globally. if she needs to stay off the stand to stay out of jail, then that is the path to the child. If the consequences are life in jail, she may never see her child.
Just an observation.

But Bean if shes done n othing wrong..why does she have to worry about going on the stand?

And if by going on the stand it comes out she did something wrong..then ...justice can be done..i personally dont see the problem with making her go on the stand.

 

[Really]

But Bean if shes done n othing wrong..why does she have to worry about going on the stand?

And if by going on the stand it comes out she did something wrong..then ...justice can be done..i personally dont see the problem with making her go on the stand.

...EXACTLY!! WHY wouldn't she take the stand in her own DEFENSE?? WHY wouldn't she do EVERYTHING in her power to prove her innocence AND have the ability to see her daughter. Never mind the fact that she could clear her name and venture forth to help in the search for Kyron. That is how I would personally feel. Of course, if I had something to hide I might steer clear of opening my mouth at all...

 

[Emma Peel]

It's about time Terri moved for visitation (supervised or otherwise) with her child.

Sheesh.

So, just commenting that I find this very interesting. This delayed request for visitation strategy feels rather telling to me, IMO.

Apparently, first things first - as has been pointed out. Terri had to get the recent abatement ruling to protect herself & her rights while she remains under investigation before this vistation request of hers could be made. Apparently, Team Terri feels can't testify without jeopardizing her not-yet-happening-criminal-case.

Check.

Now to get some visits in with the baby.

To me, this indicates her criminal counsel is necessarily putting checks on the divorce/custody/visitation issues & process as well. IMO, Team Terri believes she's going to be charged with something eventually. On that point, I wonder no more.

IMO, I don't think this is about making Kaine pay for supervised visits simply for the sake of making Kaine pay money. I think Terri very much wants to see her baby girl, and has had to wait for the courts to rule it be done her way.

BTW, Team Kaine has done a fine job of delaying this visitation for as long as possible. If LE could simply bring those charges to fruition, (even just one - the murder-for-hire might do it), this visitation would be a non-issue, thanks to Team Kaine moving quickly early on with the RO/divorce matter.

But LE hasn't been able to bring charges yet, and the court can't deny parental rights indefinitely on LE's hunches & Kaine's allegations.

Lots of tenacity here. On both sides. (Kaine/Terri) :cow:

 

[desquire]

Just an observation: this thread and the web comment pages to the news stories about this motion are Exhibit #1 in support of why abatement was the right thing to do. Divorce proceedings can be nasty messy things. Here we have people castigating TH for wanting supervised visitation with her own daughter and including pretty standard fee requests in her motion. Imagine what the public reaction will be when she has to start filing and responding to the standard discovery requests. People are (incorrectly) branding the discussions between counsel as criminal violations of the RO. Imagine the public beating TH will take if/when she pursues any line that questions KH's suitability for custody. Yikes.

 

[pufnstuf]

Per the article:

Bunch said that Kaine Horman has refused, despite repeated requests, to let Terri Horman see her daughter under any circumstances.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/10/terri_moulton_horman_seeks_reg_1.html


There were obviously requests made and denied. This has not played out in the public eye/press, thus it happened behind the scenes.

Of course he has refused. He'd be violating the restraining order to do otherwise.

 

[grandmaj]

Here is the deal! I'm getting tons of alerts. I have a real job and cannot babysit this thread.

Everyone back up, take a break and come back on your best behavior.

If you do not start posting responsibly, I will pull the thread until I get home from work tonight. Please you are adults and know the rules.

 

[pufnstuf]

She has no right to go behind the court's back and get visitation when there is an active RO in place. It HAS to go through the court and her attorney knows that. Doesn't sound like he was giving her very good advice.

IF he were giving her good advice...

IF she truly cared about K....

She would have been in court within the mandated 30 days after the RO was issued to fight for visitation.

From "Instructions: Contesting a VAPA Restraining Order:"

You have 30 days after you are served with the restraining order to ask the judge to dismiss or change the order, by filing a “Request for Hearing.” The Request for Hearing must be filed with the court within 30 days from the date you were served. If you request a hearing and the judge continues the Restraining Order, federal law may prohibit you from possessing or purchasing any firearm or ammunition (including hunting rifles).

If it has been more than 30 days since the date you were served, the only type of hearing you may request is to make changes to custody and/or parenting time, your removal from the home, your restrictions from other premises, or contact by you in-person, by telephone, or otherwise. Either party may request this type of hearing. You may request such a hearing by asking the clerk at the courthouse for the forms needed to “modify” a restraining order. The judge may schedule a hearing to decide whether or not to change the order. The judge may decide not to change the order even if both sides agree that they want the same changes.

**************


Instead, she waited until public opinion was critical about her not trying to see K. Makes one wonder if she's fighting to see the baby for the baby's sake or for the sake of saving her own face.

 

[Really]

Terri's lawyers are trying to force LE's hand to see what they've got. We'll know soon enough if the MFH evidence is strong enough to keep Terri from her daughter. Imo, it must be or she would have contested the RO immediately to clear her name and be with her baby.

 

[pufnstuf]

That is standard operating procedure for all kinds of motions. Doesn't mean a thing. Just saber rattling.

BBM. Exactly.

 

[pufnstuf]

Terri's lawyers are trying to force LE's hand to see what they've got. We'll know soon enough if the MFH evidence is strong enough to keep Terri from her daughter. Imo, it must be or she would have contested the RO immediately to clear her name and be with her baby.

And by doing so, it could backfire in their faces.

 

[1Chump]

I never stated that the RO was going to be nullified. ?? I have been discussing the deletion of the toddler's "guaranteed" 12 month RO which the toddler received when Terri didn't contest the RO. In the state of Oregon, if the Respondant (the dangerous person) doesn't contest the RO within the first 30 days, the RO stays in effect for 12 months.

This RO was taken out to protect Kaine AND the toddler (read their RO). Giving Terri visitation would nullify/eliminate/delete/erase/annul/quash the 12 month RO that the the toddler is now "guaranteed" since Terri didn't bother to contest the RO.

Yes, criminals get visitation, but criminals and non-criminals are very rarely granted visitation with a child that has RO on them. The toddler has a RO on Terri that is going to last 12 months.

To state that Kaine is open to visitation is misleading, Calliope. Kaine stated, "Depending on the circumstances, the answer could be yes or no."
Kaine is going to set a precondition on any visitation. This is what "depending on the circumstances" implies. Envision what this precondition will be knowing that his son has been missing for four months.

Kaine filed for a RO on his behalf only. All allegations are against him. The stay away orders specify Teri must stay away from Kaine and the places Kaine listed. Nohwere in the order does it state that Teri must stay away from the baby. There is an order that she cannot intimidate, harass, etc the minor child/ren (baby) in Kaine's custody.

Kaine never filed for a RO on the Baby's behalf to keep Teri from the baby.

 

[pufnstuf]

Wouldn't there have to be evidence abuse occurred? Wouldn't LE have to prove this in some way? Have they done that? People may think it's true, there may be instincts, gut feelings, and beliefs, but has it been proven? Does it have to be proven in the context of our discussion?

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm genuinely curious about the legalities of this. If one can simply allege it and it be so, whatever it is, well that's scary.

Terri had an opportunity to contest the VAPA RO. It was at that point that she would have been able to defend herself against allegations made against her.

But she didn't. So the judge found in favor of Kaine. Ergo, as it stands now, the info presented in the RO is fact in the eyes of the court. To change those facts, Terri has to file for modification and HOPE the judge hears it. Nothing requires the judge to hear it. He can refuse to hear it. At which time the facts and provisions of the RO stand.

Terri had 30 days to contest. She had attorneys during that 30 days. Yet she did not contest.

Does no one wonder WHY she did not contest? Why almost four months after the RO was served, three months after the cut-off for her to contest, she finally decided to seek modification?

I think it's obvious why. In my opinion, seeking visitation with K is but a mere tool for her to save face.

All my opinion except for what is based in law linked above.

 

[1Chump]

I believe that Terri's attorneys are trying to 'soften' her image as previously stated. If Terri REALLY wanted to see her child, she would have contested the RO from the very start. This would be the ONLY thing that Terri has done since Kyron disappeared to show her as a caring individual. Indeed, it is the ONE thing that many of us as parents cannot comprehend is not moving mountains to see your child. By the same token, her lawyers are trying to find out what LE has, and this may be a way to force their hand a bit. Don't think it'll work but it does appear that there's a great wall of silence when it comes to what LE has gathered these past few months.

Terri didn't contest the RO because she would have to speak to LE, in moo she can't face them without telling what she knows. I believe she knows everything about what happened to Kyron. I do find it strange that her parents, friends and family are not out screaming her innocence and offering public support for Terri. Wouldn't you think they'd be all up in arms considering she lost her step-son, her husband split with her daughter and she is possibly facing legal action on many fronts?? WHERE is her public support??

IMO, there is no reason for Teri to contest the RO. The RO is on Kaine's behalf. Teri cannot have contact with Kaine. Teri's attorneys do not want her to have any contact with Kaine. Teri probably does not want to have any contact with Kaine. So why waste money fighting a RO that keeps her from having contact with someone she is not going to have contact with anyways.

 

[SurfieTX]

Kaine filed for a RO on his behalf only. All allegations are against him. The stay away orders specify Teri must stay away from Kaine and the places Kaine listed. Nohwere in the order does it state that Teri must stay away from the baby. There is an order that she cannot intimidate, harass, etc the minor child/ren (baby) in Kaine's custody.

Kaine never filed for a RO on the Baby's behalf to keep Teri from the baby.

[ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/34071571/Kaine-Horman-s-restraining-order-request"]Kaine Horman's restraining order request[/ame]

5. I am in imminent danger of further abuse by Respondent and Respondent is a threat to my physical safety or the physical safety of my child/ren because: Respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me.

~~~~~~~~~

Interestingly, when the form asks if the Respondent has ever been arrested or convicted of a violent crime, Kaine writes in "not sure."