2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[PaulaF513]

Personally, I believe that Mr. Houze and Mr. Bunch are correct. They sound like very reputable attornies, basing their arguments on sound law, not scandal mongering.

If LE has evidence that TH was complicit in Kyron's disappearance, they need to charge her and end this circus of assumptions and presumptions once and for all.

 

[stmarysmead]

Well, even the finest chefs cannot make a gourmet meal out of rancid chicken and rotten tomatoes. Quite true. They can only work with what they have and do not have:


Cliff Notes...The Horman divorce for laymen.


Kaine:..."The Police say she tried to hire someone to kill me. Actually KILL me. Like MAKE ME DEAD. I'm afraid for her to be with my only surviving child"

Terri.."High Priced lawyers, shut him up. I don't want to talk about THAT. Gimmee my kid"

Kaine: "My little son is missing, probably dead. Police say she's involved. Baby K may have seen a murder.! A murder! Watched her Mother kill her little brother!! I'm afraid for Terri to be with my only surviving child"

Terri: "High Priced lawyers, shut him up. I don't want to talk about THAT. Gimme my kid."

Kaine: "She told me she failed lie detector texts. She won't cooperate. She has drinking problems! I'm afraid for her to be with my only surviving child"

Terri: "High Priced lawyers, shut him up. I don't want to talk about any of THAT. Gimmee my kid"

Kaine: "Read these graphic sexual texts...laughing, joking...bragging about her prowess, her strength to subdue a grown man. Where's her love for Kyron in any of these? Make her be tested for her mental state...her fitness to be around a Baby. I'm afraid for her to be with my only surviving child"

Terri: "High Priced lawyers, shut him up. I don't want to talk about THAT. No tests, no exams, NOTHING. Gimmee my kid"

Terri..." I expect to be given visits with my child to emotional twist...and confuse...and disrupt...and I DEMAND to be given her...without any testimony, explanation, examinations, or cooperation of any sort. Because I want what I want and people need to give it to me.

High priced lawyers, I got you big money from my mysterious source...who jumped in to bankroll me IMMEDIATELY...and I'm never saying who is bankrolling ME either. Because I don't need to do anything I don't want to."

"Gimmee my kid."

 

[ami]

IMO, Bunch is missing the point that the texts weren't just about sex, but about a woman bragging that her physical strength is enough to subdue a grown man, that her needs came before a parent's need to be with his child, and about her willingness to lie to the authorities. How does that NOT have to do with her ability to keep a small child safe and to work with the authorities during visitation? The sex talk was just the vehicle that carried those three messages, IMO. Especially the part where she asked MC to lie to her attorney. To me, this demonstrates that she's not able to honestly communicate with the authorities working even in her own interest - how will she be able to honestly communicate with and work with authorities working in baby K's best interests?

Re: the lie detectors. What a smoke screen. She told Kaine she failed them, he reported her words as a witness. But the wording makes me think that the affidavit filed by Kaine last was strategic in the use of the first person and not the "father" and "mother" used by the attorneys. I"ll ask about it on the lawyer thread, but to me it looks like they did that for just this reason: so Rackner was not using the LDT against Terri, but Kaine was simply reporting what he knew of the situation as a first hand witness...

 

[mmmagique]

We have long since been questioning how much of the investigation into Kyron's disappearance is being shared with KH and how much of that information he is/will be using in his divorce case. This quote not only alludes to the text messages but also 'hearsay'.

My statements stands, is it legal and/or ethical for LE to share information from an ongoing investigation in a way that it favors one side or the other in a divorce case. And as a follow-up will the intertwining of the two ultimately hurt or help either one?

For example: is Kaine being briefed on investigations into TH's life that he will then be using in the divorce.

Should he not be getting his own search warrants/PI's/subpeonas to do so?

(I am not speaking about the alleged MFH...that is understandable, I am talking about hypothetical statements such as "yeah KH we were talking to your neighbor that TH visited last saturday and they said that there was alcohol missing...." and then statements like that ending up in divorce court documents.)

FR: LE could care less about the divorce case. The information they shared with him was due to the fact that he was the planned victim in a murder for hire scheme, and that he was one of the victims in the disappearance of his child.
The fact that it may help him in his divorce case is just icing on the cake!

 

[loves2bmom]

IMO, Bunch is missing the point that the texts weren't just about sex, but about a woman bragging that her physical strength is enough to subdue a grown man, that her needs came before a parent's need to be with his child, and about her willingness to lie to the authorities. How does that NOT have to do with her ability to keep a small child safe and to work with the authorities during visitation? The sex talk was just the vehicle that carried those three messages, IMO. Especially the part where she asked MC to lie to her attorney. To me, this demonstrates that she's not able to honestly communicate with the authorities working even in her own interest - how will she be able to honestly communicate with and work with authorities working in baby K's best interests?

Re: the lie detectors. What a smoke screen. She told Kaine she failed them, he reported her words as a witness. But the wording makes me think that the affidavit filed by Kaine last was strategic in the use of the first person and not the "father" and "mother" used by the attorneys. I"ll ask about it on the lawyer thread, but to me it looks like they did that for just this reason: so Rackner was not using the LDT against Terri, but Kaine was simply reporting what he knew of the situation as a first hand witness...

Ami, that's the way I read it too. This was his deposition. It said that right on the motion. In contrast, Bunch's filing was lawyer speak and Terri did not give him a witness statement because as we know, she can't talk or it will incriminate her. :crazy:

 

[loves2bmom]

Personally, I believe that Mr. Houze and Mr. Bunch are correct. They sound like very reputable attornies, basing their arguments on sound law, not scandal mongering.

If LE has evidence that TH was complicit in Kyron's disappearance, they need to charge her and end this circus of assumptions and presumptions once and for all.

I hope you get your wish and soon!

 

[loves2bmom]

finally!

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/hormanfiling.pdf

For some reason this made me chuckle:

Enclosed please find a courtesy copy of Respondent's reply to Petitioner's Response to Respondent's motion to modify restraining order....

By the end of this are we going to have the winner for the best run on sentence ever?

 

[For The Kids]

"It is becoming evident that Father's mission is to completely destroy and sabotage the mother/child relationship," Terri Horman's lawyers wrote. "It is also becoming evident that no matter what the court may ultimately order, there is no reason to believe that Father will do anything other than to continue to engage in these harsh tactics, to the utter detriment of his daughter."

Erm wasnt it the Mother/stepmothers mission to completely destory and sabotage the father/son relation and the mother/child relationship that Desiree held with her son? Did Terri care what her actions did to her daughter?

What he wrote is just so rich

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I will start with saying I believe Kyron is no longer with us, poor sweet boy, and that TH is responsible for that. I will say that I also think TH has some sort of psychological or personality disorder, and while one comes to mind, I won't offer a non-professional analysis on WS. Thus I would have serious misgivings about allowing any sort of unsupervised or loosely supervised visitation between TH and her daughter.

However, I will say again that a child has a right to a relationship with his or her parent, as well as a right to be protected from abuse or worse. TH's attorneys are correct to remind the court that even prisoners still have the right to see their children, unless that right is terminated by the court. Many posters have excoriated TH for failing to fight for visitation, seeing that as a sign of guilt (forget custody--she would never get that) but now that she is, that's wrong too.

If we postulate, for a moment, that she is guilty but that she intends to fight for her freedom, she has every right to fight to see her child, just as Kaine has every right to fight to prevent that, so long as he believes what he says he believes. I think that without charges being filed, TH will likely get some very limited highly supervised visitation, because drinking and infidelity and even Kaine's suspicions and allegations of poor parenting are not grounds for preventing any contact. After all, they were still living together while she was drinking and leaving the baby in fitness center day care. My guess is that all these filings are just buying time until charges are filed and visitation won't be an issue, pending a child murder and MFH trial. If she doesn't plead out.

 

[ami]

I will start with saying I believe Kyron is no longer with us, poor sweet boy, and that TH is responsible for that. I will say that I also think TH has some sort of psychological or personality disorder, and while one comes to mind, I won't offer a non-professional analysis on WS. Thus I would have serious misgivings about allowing any sort of unsupervised or loosely supervised visitation between TH and her daughter.

However, I will say again that a child has a right to a relationship with his or her parent, as well as a right to be protected from abuse or worse. TH's attorneys are correct to remind the court that even prisoners still have the right to see their children, unless that right is terminated by the court. Many posters have excoriated TH for failing to fight for visitation, seeing that as a sign of guilt (forget custody--she would never get that) but now that she is, that's wrong too.

If we postulate, for a moment, that she is guilty but that she intends to fight for her freedom, she has every right to fight to see her child, just as Kaine has every right to fight to prevent that, so long as he believes what he says he believes. I think that without charges being filed, TH will likely get some very limited highly supervised visitation, because drinking and infidelity and even Kaine's suspicions and allegations of poor parenting are not grounds for preventing any contact. After all, they were still living together while she was drinking and leaving the baby in fitness center day care. My guess is that all these filings are just buying time until charges are filed and visitation won't be an issue, pending a child murder and MFH trial. If she doesn't plead out.

Yep, I agree.

I wonder... are prisoners who have killed their other children also entitled to have visitation with their living children? Is it possible that Kaine's side genuinely believes that if Terri were convicted, she would lose her visitation rights completely?

 

[loves2bmom]

Yep, I agree.

I wonder... are prisoners who have killed their other children also entitled to have visitation with their living children? Is it possible that Kaine's side genuinely believes that if Terri were convicted, she would lose her visitation rights completely?

That's really a great question Ami. I've been trying to google a bit and see under what circumstances a prisoner is denied visitation with their children. I'm imagining it's a case by case basis.

 

[pinktoes]

I'd really like to read the motion myself. Can it be pulled up online?

Yes, the courtesy copy sent to the judge, which is available before the court had time to stamp the filed copy.

If you'll start reading at line 18 of the Motion, you'll see Houze at his finest in working for his client and for following the law:

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/hormanfiling.pdf

(You can also get to the actual Motion by clicking on the link in the oregonlive story--it's in the article in about the second para.)

 

[pinktoes]

Yep, I agree.

I wonder... are prisoners who have killed their other children also entitled to have visitation with their living children? Is it possible that Kaine's side genuinely believes that if Terri were convicted, she would lose her visitation rights completely?

It is decided in each case and, IIRC, if the child is old enough, the child has the option to say no.

There are advocacy groups working now to ensure incarcerated parents the right to visitation.

IMHO, KH has no idea whether he could prevent visitation in prison, if TH is ever imprisoned. He's not at that stage yet.

 

[germaine]

"It is becoming evident that Father's mission is to completely destroy and sabotage the mother/child relationship," Terri Horman's lawyers wrote. "It is also becoming evident that no matter what the court may ultimately order, there is no reason to believe that Father will do anything other than to continue to engage in these harsh tactics, to the utter detriment of his daughter."

Erm wasnt it the Mother/stepmothers mission to completely destory and sabotage the father/son relation and the mother/child relationship that Desiree held with her son? Did Terri care what her actions did to her daughter?

What he wrote is just so rich

He took that tack, imo, because one of the most significant factors in making a final custody determination once the abatement is over will be whether a parent will interfere with the other's relationship with the child -- or at least not foster it. He's just setting up that argument, and we can expect to hear more about it in the future. Again, jmoo.

 

[gwenabob]

For some reason this made me chuckle:

Enclosed please find a courtesy copy of Respondent's reply to Petitioner's Response to Respondent's motion to modify restraining order....

By the end of this are we going to have the winner for the best run on sentence ever?

Not a run on sentence. That is the title of the pleading being submitted. Sounds funny to people outside the buisiness.

 

[loves2bmom]

Not a run on sentence. That is the title of the pleading being submitted. Sounds funny to people outside the buisiness.

Yeah, I get that! I was just wondering what it will look like by the time January rolls around.

Responding to the Petitioner who is responding to the motion by the Respondent made by the Petitioner in response to the Repondent to the Petitioner of the Respondent.

 

[Kimster]

I'm wondering why TH didn't respond with "_____ and _____ both reported seeing Kyron AFTER I left the school"???

 

[TxLady2]

The sad part is, one day baby K will grow older and want to know about her mother. What if it's determined that Terri had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance? What will K think about her father's attempts to smear her mother and ruin her reputation? Or is he planning to lie to her whenever she asks him about her mother?
None of this is helping to find Kyron. If anything, it has alienated Terri more and ensured that she will probably NEVER tell LE anything that would help find him. Kaine would have been smarter if he would have just quietly left with the baby and kept all this other stuff to himself until AFTER this case was resolved.... or at least kept it on the back burner for awhile until things die down. JMHO, but he has only made matters worse, and surely these legal wranglings are NOT in K's best interests, but rather they are in Kaine's best interests.
Not to mention that he has completely jeapordized Terri's right to a fair trial.
Poor little Kyron... seems he's been forgotten in all this mess.

 

[pinktoes]

That's really a great question Ami. I've been trying to google a bit and see under what circumstances a prisoner is denied visitation with their children. I'm imagining it's a case by case basis.

Of course, if Kaine managed to get her parental rights severed/terminated--then she'd have no right to visitation anywhere. But, again, the case is not there yet. Isn't LE still looking for a possible adult standing by the white truck in the school parking lot? Last I read.

 

[SurfieTX]

I have to say after reading the response a few times, I find it to be pretty good. It is far more factual and law-based. It essentially whittles all of this extraneous stuff to the issue at hand, which is whether or not Terri can have some kind of visitation with K. She's not asking for custody, just some reasonable visitation.

What I am questioning though is this part, "After Father filed the affidavit, it was immediately made public and disseminated widely by the Oregonion newspaper and local television news outlets."

Is the implication here that Rackner and Kaine sent all of this information to the paper and the news outlets?

In any event, it is my opinion that Terri will get some sort of supervised parenting time. The fact that her constitutional rights to not incriminate herself are being reiterated time and time again and because this is a rather big issue, it is one that the courts will definitely need to keep in mind.

ETA: This in no way reflects whether I personally think she should get visitation, because I really am on the fence about that. Plus, I think the one sticky factor for Terri in this request is that she did not pursue this option sooner as it has been available to her since the RO was in place.