2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[PDXMom]

Fortunatey the judge in the Divorce case granted me the divorce with out the EX being present! I know the criminal case against him was known to the lawyers and judges on both sides, so that is why I got the final decree without the ex there. My conclusions are purely my own gut feelings. I guess that's why I decided to share my experience. I can't explain it any other way. I have learned that my gut is a pretty good gage for me anyway!:hug:
I have to add in that the judge, when we first went to court was so appaled at my ex's denial etc. that he basically awarded me things that normally never happen in a California Divorce settlement and told the ex so in front of a court room full of people!

Sounds like a wise judge. I'm heartened to hear that there are judges that think on their feet, and don't get bogged down by technicalities. Let's hope Meisenheimer is one of those judges. I do worry about the past interactions between he and Houze, as linked by St. Marysmead upthread. Houze seems to rely on those technicalities to produce the escape artist moves he makes.
Here's to SoCalGal2's gut being right!

 

[SurfieTX]

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Let me just say this. Now Kyron`s father believes that Terri -- this is what he says cops told him -- hired a hit man to try, or tried to hire a hit man to kill him, Kaine, her husband. So she hasn`t been charged with that. That`s the problem. She hasn`t been charged with anything. She`s not even officially considered a suspect. Why not?

MCCAIN: Well, Jane, you know, you hit on a really important point, because the very next sentence after that unimaginable harm sentence, he does state unequivocally, with no conditions, that Terri hired a hit man to murder him.

The problem is, he may have to prove that in court, and that`s going to create a nightmare for the district attorney and the sheriff`s office, because that`s all based on hearsay.

So if Terri`s lawyers are smart, they might say -- they might call Kaine`s bluff and say, "Your honor, we`re not going to listen to hearsay. Bring those investigators in. Bring their notebooks. Bring their tape recordings, their wiretaps." That`s the last thing investigators want to have happen.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/25/ijvm.01.html


I think this is exactly what Bunch & Houze are doing. JMO

And I think so too. I've thought from the get-go that this had very little to do with K and EVERYTHING to do about discovery.

That said, I think she probably does miss K in her own way - whatever way that might be.

 

[SurfieTX]

Respectfully snipped and bbm.

The problem is, what *is* reasonable visitation for someone who has tried to hire someone to murder her child's other parent, and is the "de facto suspect" in the disappearance of her child's sibling?

I think that is the most important question here. I'm getting a really strong feeling that Bunch and Houze are operating under the fact that Terri will be arrested for whatever happened to Kyron. And I'm wondering if, like Human pointed out, LE is waiting for Kaine to get his official divorce...as perhaps a "courtesy" to Kaine and little K.

I also have another little interesting theory about everything we're seeing play out, but I'm unsure about where to post it...perhaps in the Terri Motive thread would be best.

 

[citigirl]

I'll re read but I would take that to mean criminal and civil investigations.
Parental fitness investigation and the disappearance of Kyron investigation.
jmho.

ETA: okay, I re read and it does not say parallel investigations it says parallel criminal investigations, so yes I would take that to mean the MFH plot as well.

I think this wording--"parallel"--is intentional. It will be their argument that these are not two separate criminal acts, but that one of the investigations was created by the other, and Terri is not really that evil. I don't know which one Houze and Bunch will say is legit. (I guess they will say neither is legit)

 

[citigirl]

I think that is the most important question here. I'm getting a really strong feeling that Bunch and Houze are operating under the fact that Terri will be arrested for whatever happened to Kyron. And I'm wondering if, like Human pointed out, LE is waiting for Kaine to get his official divorce...as perhaps a "courtesy" to Kaine and little K.

I also have another little interesting theory about everything we're seeing play out, but I'm unsure about where to post it...perhaps in the Terri Motive thread would be best.

Give us a preview here....

 

[ThoughtFox]

Is the public going to be making decisions about visitation and the divorce?

If not, what difference does it make to her visitation rights or divorce case?

Or do we get to vote on it?

Thank you! :bow::bow::bow:

Your post really cut to the chase about how Terri's attorneys may be making a huge blunder here while trying to think ahead to a criminal trial. They are really making a muddle of this!

 

[ThoughtFox]

I think this wording--"parallel"--is intentional. It will be their argument that these are not two separate criminal acts, but that one of the investigations was created by the other, and Terri is not really that evil. I don't know which one Houze and Bunch will say is legit. (I guess they will say neither is legit)

Really interesting theory! Painting a picture of victimization as a defense.

I actually hate it when that happens. :banghead:

 

[ThoughtFox]

Personally, I believe that Mr. Houze and Mr. Bunch are correct. They sound like very reputable attornies, basing their arguments on sound law, not scandal mongering.

If LE has evidence that TH was complicit in Kyron's disappearance, they need to charge her and end this circus of assumptions and presumptions once and for all.

The circus will continue no matter what happens from now on. TH has set this whole circus in motion - she's the Ring Mistress, you could say. :angel:

They could find Kyron tomorrow alive and well (please God) and yet Terri might still never get either visitation or custody.

Even if they never charge her with anything, the Murder for Hire and the texting with other men are huge red flags for any Judge, and ones that cannot be ignored in the best interest of Baby K.

So TH cannot go back to being Facebook-Perfect-Mom from the day before Kyron disappeared, no matter what happens now. Her loss of reputation isn't just due the filing of court papers in terms of visitation either. Look at all her other mistakes - bat phones, shady friends, non-cooperation in a missing child case!

 

[SmoothOperator]

So they didn't deny that she drinks to excess, they didn't deny that she passes out, they pretty much confirmed the sexts were from Terri to M. Cook, they didn't deny that she failed the polys, they didn't deny she has emotional issues, they didn't deny that baby K may have witnessed "some unimaginable act or horror"..

And can you imagine they can even say

"It is becoming evident that Father's mission is to completely destroy and sabotage the mother/child relationship," :waitasec:

snip:
Terri Horman's lawyers said the text messages between their client and Cook aren't relevant to whether Terri Horman should be allowed to see her daughter, were "gratuitously included" by Kaine Horman and his lawyer and violate state civil procedure.

No denial in fact he admits they are between Cook and his client.

But this is the kicker

snip
"However, rather than making a long-range and reasoned assessment of what is in Kiara's best interests, Father is focused on Mother's destruction."

My question is.... When did Terri attempt to make a long-range and reasoned assessment of what was in Kyron's best interest? :waitasec: She lawyered up, lied about her activities that day and attempted to circumvent surveillance on her through use of "clean phones" among other questionable actions. I really can't believe Houze can say that with a straight face.

Where is the denial? All I see is a lawyer pounding his fist.

Excellent post grandmaj!

... and just wanted to add that not only did Terri not attempt to make a long range and reasoned assessment of what is Kyron's best interest, but she is refusing to even cooperate with what is necessary for parenting time w/baby K{e.g. She refuses to answer any questioning whatsoever, she refuses to participate in the parenting counseling necessary, to comply with having any of the necessary mental health evals, and even refused to sign the paperwork stating that SHE IS REQUESTING TO HAVE PARENTING TIME}..

So, with that said it appears that she, herself is not TRULY making an attempt to have a long range and reasoned assessment of what is in baby K's best interest, either.. The woman refuses to even sign the affidavit that states she, herself is requesting this "parenting time" w/baby K.. IMO that is NOT even truly attempting to regain any "parenting time" which amounts to more frivolous motions, etc filed continuing to waste the time of our judicial system...This is an outrage but am thankful in that these particular choices will only further to ENSURE BABY K'S BEST INTEREST AND SAFETY by Kaine being granted to remain as sole guardian to baby K..


ETA~ maybe it could be said that Terri is after all looking to ensure baby K's best interest by her decisions of NOT cooperating with any of the steps necessary to gain even "supervised" visitation therefor leaving baby K in Kaine's sole care and custody{which many of us know beyond a shadow of a doubt is in Baby K's best interest while also ensuring her continued safety}

 

[mmmagique]

WOW! This deserves more than just thanks! I hope Kaine's lawyer says JUST THAT!

Coming from someone whose eloquence is unsurpassed, I am humbly grateful.
Tyvm.

 

[SmoothOperator]

If Terri is cleared, then baby K will not have to ask about her mother when she grows up because her mother will be part of her life. I'm assuming Kaine would tell her what appears to be the truth - that he did his best to protect baby K using all of the information he had, and all the information the police had, at the time. Why would he have to lie? So far he's reporting the facts as he knows them, and even if Terri is cleared of abduction/murder suspicions, those facts (that she sent the sexts, that she claimed to have failed the LDTs, that LE informed him of the attempted murder for hire) remain. It's not pretty. Her actions and the suspicions are not pretty. But that's the reality of what is happening and the reality of what baby K's mother is involved with.

Also, I don't see these legal wranglings as being in Kaine's best interests - how could they be? What does it benefit Kaine to pay his attorneys for every motion filed, every court date, every meeting? What does it benefit him having his dirty laundry aired in public? He doesn't strike me as an exhibitionist or masochist - my guess is he wishes he never had to do a single one of these things.

Also, IMO, no action of Kaine's would get Terri to talk or not talk. The best he can hope for is to keep his remaining child safe and hope evidence leads to Kyron's recovery.

Another EXCELLENT POST!

you are not only addressing some of the most relevant issues at hand, but also IMPO are 100% correct in your complete assessment of those issues and realistic long term outcomes for baby K's future...

**as I am attempting to get caught up with the latest of these motions, responses, etc that have been filed and become public, I have come across many whose perspicacity is much like mine and seem to be very realistic about all issues in and around this case, as well as precious little Kyron's case.. And wholeheartedly agree with those very many that the number 1 priorities{notice plural because there are 2 that are #1}..Kyron and baby K Horman.. and I am pleased that Kaine as well as Rackner are doing everything within their power to keep one safe and to bring justice on behalf of the other**.. There are alot of really good, honest, and realistic posts throughout this Thread thus far...

~now off to go read some more to finally get myself caught up ~

 

[gitana1]

"Horman and his lawyer also included hearsay and irrelevant personal text messages gained from the ongoing criminal investigation into Kyron Horman's disappearance, the two said."

Welp, that answers one of my questions...looks like LE is actively helping KH in his divorce case.

Is that legal? Is that ethical?

If they are giving him info regarding the criminal case and he is using it civilly, that is both legal and, IMO, ethical.

polygraphs are inadmissable AT TRIAL, at most, Kaine's mention of it would not be officially considered by the court in its findings of fact wrt whether baby can have supervised visitation. Also, Rackner didn't swear to it, Kaine did. So, at worst, his sworn testimony is inadmisssible. Rackner is fine. I didnt' recall that she used to be a prosecutor. But that tells me she knows her bounds. jmoo

eta: to be clear, IANAL, just my opinion based on reading on the subject and discussing with those who are.

His mention of what TH said regarding the polygraphs is an admission by a party opponent and thus a hearsay objection to her statement alone would be overruled. However, I can't remember if he stated what she said or stated it as fact. If the latter, that's hearsay.

I so wish our lawyers were here to chime in on this. Specifically, Houze's and Bunch's assertion that what Rackner and Kaine did with the polygraph information is illegal or sanctionable. JMO

Not illegal or sanctionable, IMO. He may have flouted evidentiary laws but the response to that is not sanctions, but rather, sustaining a hearsay objection.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Respectfully snipped and bbm.

The problem is, what *is* reasonable visitation for someone who has tried to hire someone to murder her child's other parent, and is the "de facto suspect" in the disappearance of her child's sibling?

People in prison have the right to see their children. And the baby has a right to a relationship with her mother. How can supervised visitation hurt the child? Millions of children in this country have parents who are murderers, gang members, addicts, thieves, psychopathic corporate CEOs and other criminal types. It's up to Family Court to determine if a parent deserves to have his or her natural rights revoked. Certainly, sending raunchy text messages isn't grounds for refusing VISITATION. Millions of people would lose visitation over that. And we have yet to see charges for kidnapping, murder or the MFH plot. If TH has a condition like borderline personality, it is likelynthat the parent-child bomd may be minimal anyway. But I would think a good family court process would look at TH's mental health. The process, as a whole, might do a lot to illuminate for Kaine, what is wrong with this woman.

 

[gwenabob]

People in prison have the right to see their children. And the baby has a right to a relationship with her mother. How can supervised visitation hurt the child? Millions of children in this country have parents who are murderers, gang members, addicts, thieves, psychopathic corporate CEOs and other criminal types. It's up to Family Court to determine if a parent deserves to have his or her natural rights revoked. Certainly, sending raunchy text messages isn't grounds for refusing VISITATION. Millions of people would lose visitation over that. And we have yet to see charges for kidnapping, murder or the MFH plot. If TH has a condition like borderline personality, it is likelynthat the parent-child bomd may be minimal anyway. But I would think a good family court process would look at TH's mental health. The process, as a whole, might do a lot to illuminate for Kaine, what is wrong with this woman.

bbm

Herein lies the rub. She refuses to speak on her own behalf or have a psychological evaluation.

Also, there are many children in this country whose parental 'rights' have been terminated. For good reason.

 

[stmarysmead]

People in prison have the right to see their children. And the baby has a right to a relationship with her mother. How can supervised visitation hurt the child? Millions of children in this country have parents who are murderers, gang members, addicts, thieves, psychopathic corporate CEOs and other criminal types. It's up to Family Court to determine if a parent deserves to have his or her natural rights revoked. Certainly, sending raunchy text messages isn't grounds for refusing VISITATION. Millions of people would lose visitation over that. And we have yet to see charges for kidnapping, murder or the MFH plot. If TH has a condition like borderline personality, it is likelynthat the parent-child bomd may be minimal anyway. But I would think a good family court process would look at TH's mental health. The process, as a whole, might do a lot to illuminate for Kaine, what is wrong with this woman.

Ah yes, but Terri is refusing to participate in any court process. She just wants... what she wants... like she wants it...no mental health evaluations, no tests, no questions...nothing.

And Baby K is just a commodity to be flipped into her arms, no questions asked, because Terri WANTS it.

So no one will have an inkling what's wrong with this woman, certainly not the Court or Kaine......or if the sight ,sound and scent of her will not bring horrific memories back to Baby K of whatever may have been done to her brother.

Is it good for a Baby to be exposed to the person she may have watched brutally kill her brother? Is it beneficial to bring the sounds and smells and the sight of that face back to her...what every week? How often will we make Baby endure it?

Will Terri's attorneys stake their professional reputations on the fact that this child will not be traumatized? Will they agree to pay for whatever treatment it takes to help Baby K recover...for the rest of her life.....if they are knowingly reuniting her by use of THEIR SKILLS with her Brother's murderer?

Terri is asking for this child who has not seen her for months...to be brought to a strange place and reunited for an hour with the "Mommy" who must then IMMEDIATELY go away again. If she is not terrified to the extreme by memories of what she saw happen to Kyron...Baby K will endure the emotional upheaval of then being pulled away when the hours up...traumatized and taken away from Mommy again.

And again.

And again.

Now isn't that what every loving Mother wants to put her child through?

Baby K suffers either way.

So, either way...Baby K is traumatized.

 

[mmmagique]

People in prison have the right to see their children. And the baby has a right to a relationship with her mother. How can supervised visitation hurt the child? Millions of children in this country have parents who are murderers, gang members, addicts, thieves, psychopathic corporate CEOs and other criminal types. It's up to Family Court to determine if a parent deserves to have his or her natural rights revoked. Certainly, sending raunchy text messages isn't grounds for refusing VISITATION. Millions of people would lose visitation over that. And we have yet to see charges for kidnapping, murder or the MFH plot. If TH has a condition like borderline personality, it is likelynthat the parent-child bomd may be minimal anyway. But I would think a good family court process would look at TH's mental health. The process, as a whole, might do a lot to illuminate for Kaine, what is wrong with this woman.

OK.
And if it were your kids (or only remaining child) used in this experiment?
Mine will stay right here.
I'm not willing to gamble my childrens' lives.
If I'm not willing to bet theirs, why should I be allowed to bet on another innocent's life?
This woman is the MAIN suspect in a murder for hire investigation against her own husband, and in the disappearance, and probable murder of a young child she treated as her son.
Sounds like a dangerous woman to me.
At least allegedly.
Not one to trust with those who remain.
IMO.

 

[JBean]

People in prison have the right to see their children. And the baby has a right to a relationship with her mother. How can supervised visitation hurt the child? Millions of children in this country have parents who are murderers, gang members, addicts, thieves, psychopathic corporate CEOs and other criminal types. It's up to Family Court to determine if a parent deserves to have his or her natural rights revoked. Certainly, sending raunchy text messages isn't grounds for refusing VISITATION. Millions of people would lose visitation over that. And we have yet to see charges for kidnapping, murder or the MFH plot. If TH has a condition like borderline personality, it is likelynthat the parent-child bomd may be minimal anyway. But I would think a good family court process would look at TH's mental health. The process, as a whole, might do a lot to illuminate for Kaine, what is wrong with this woman.

I agree that she may have a right to see her child. But, at this point she will not submit to a psych eval and so how can this determination be made?
If she is stable and that can be established,I think supervised visits are in order.
But who can determine she is stable if she won't submit to the process?

 

[JBean]

Ah yes, but Terri is refusing to participate in any court process. She just wants... what she wants... like she wants it...no mental health evaluations, no tests, no questions...nothing.

And Baby K is just a commodity to be flipped into her arms, no questions asked, because Terri WANTS it.

So no one will have an inkling what's wrong with this woman, certainly not the Court or Kaine......or if the sight ,sound and scent of her will not bring horrific memories back to Baby K of whatever may have been done to her brother.

Is it good for a Baby to be exposed to the person she may have watched brutally kill her brother? Is it beneficial to bring the sounds and smells and the sight of that face back to her...what every week? How often will we make Baby endure it?

Will Terri's attorneys stake their professional reputations on the fact that this child will not be traumatized? Will they agree to pay for whatever treatment it takes to help Baby K recover...for the rest of her life.....if they are knowingly reuniting her by use of THEIR SKILLS with her Brother's murderer?

Terri is asking for this child who has not seen her for months...to be brought to a strange place and reunited for an hour with the "Mommy" who must then IMMEDIATELY go away again. If she is not terrified to the extreme by memories of what she saw happen to Kyron...Baby K will endure the emotional upheaval of then being pulled away when the hours up...traumatized and taken away from Mommy again.

And again.

And again.

Now isn't that what every loving Mother wants to put her child through?

Baby K suffers either way.

So, either way...Baby K is traumatized.

we don't know that the baby saw anything traumatic happening to Kyron so let's not get carried away!

Most mothers would want to see their child, so there is nothing abnormal about Terry wanting to see her child,imo. In Terry's opinion and perhaps in the opinion of others, seeing her mother would be good for the child.

But she has to submit to the process and until she does this is all moot.

 

[Melanie]

bbm

Herein lies the rub. She refuses to speak on her own behalf or have a psychological evaluation.

Also, there are many children in this country whose parental 'rights' have been terminated. For good reason.

Great post. I'm glad Kaine is pushing back -- and for good reason. We've all seen how many times CPS has dropped the ball and a child ends up dead. I agree that TH should go to court and get a psych eval before visits are ever considered.

MOO

Mel

 

[Donjeta]

Did I get this correctly? Basically her lawyers' response doesn't deny any of the allegations, they're just saying that some of it is irrelevant and talking about these things is unfair anyway because it puts Terri in bad light?

I thought it was the point in custody court, sort of. Aren't they putting bad parents in bad light there as a matter of routine? If there is something that puts a parent in bad light as a parent it should be mentionable if the court is to make an informed decision.