2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[debs]

The "if true" was intended to be implicit in my post, as well. If true, what did TH do? Poor thing was just passed out on the couch while KH was endangering the children.

Yes. It would seem apparent that if one parent isn't able to ....er, parent, then the other parent, would do so.

 

[germaine]

So Terri can ask for depositions from Kaine's physicians and any psych evals she deems necessary to evaluate whether Kaine is fit to parent their daughter? That should be interesting!

Of course she could have. But she didn't. Wonder why...oh wait, no I don't lol

 

[germaine]

So, if LE has proof (or even a high probability) that a person has been trying to hire someone to murder their spouse, AND that person is the number one suspect in disappearing (probably murdering) their stepson, LE should not let the spouse who was to be whacked know?

How long do they just sit back and let it play out? Until the spouse is dead as well? I believe they have a moral and ethical (if not legal) obligation to share that information with the potential "late spouse". Sooner rather than later.

absolutely. I posted a while back about when I was involved in a criminal case. Tons of information was shared with me privately. The detective on the case called me all the time and vice-versa. He told me what the witnesses were saying; what the prosecutor was thinking; what their charging strategy would be and why, etc.

eta: love your quote. How appropriate, imo.

 

[Chablis]

Yes. It would seem apparent that if one parent isn't able to ....er, parent, then the other parent, would do so.

However, the only one in this story who is known to have endangered a child, and was punished in a court of law is Terri Horman.

 

[Trt]

So Terri can ask for depositions from Kaine's physicians and any psych evals she deems necessary to evaluate whether Kaine is fit to parent their daughter? That should be interesting!

It would have been up to the judge whether or not Terri OR Kaine would have to submit to evaluations before deciding on the RO modification(though Terri probably would have had more grounds to request these things as a part of a custody hearing under the divorce settlement and not an RO that she has against her). Terri might not have even had to do anything that Kaine or his lawyer motioned for (as far as evaluations, or other types of discovery). He may have decided (on 11/4 at the *housekeeping* hearing) that an expedited hearing would be granted which would mean that Kaine and Rackner would not have time to conduct all the discovery that they deemed necessary.

But we will never know.

JMO

 

[BeanE]

Yes. It would seem apparent that if one parent isn't able to ....er, parent, then the other parent, would do so.

Yes, I could never have conceived of, if my husband had ever been unconscious on the couch, whether from drink, drugs, exhaustion, medical condition, or anything else, saying, "Well dammitall, if he's not going to take care of the baby, then neither am I!"

And I'm not saying Kaine did that. I don't know what Kaine did or didn't do.

I'm just sayin' what my thoughts are on parental responsibility when one's baby daddy or baby mama doesn't step up. My conviction is that one steps up oneself. No matter how frustrated. No matter how angry. No matter how tired. No matter how busy. No matter how unfair. No matter what. Baby first. No leaving a baby or child to languish in danger and/or neglect because the other parent doesn't meet their responsibilities. No passes.

My most humble opinion.

 

[Trt]

We do know what Kaine said he did and that was intervene(and be met with Terri's venom). Terri's high-powered attorneys could have had a field day with the things that Kaine *didn't* mention in his affidavit. They could have *concluded* all sorts of things about Kaine as a parent because his affidavit wasn't complete(I'm sure a complete testimony would have been given on the witness stand).

So again, why did Terri and her lawyers just quit, with all of the ammo they had from Kaine's affidavit(why didn't you see to it that the baby was put to bed and didn't fall asleep on the couch with her mother who was drunk? So on and so on)...? Why didn't they fight?

JMO

 

[debs]

Which makes a compromise and cooperation the much better answer.

 

[BeanE]

Question. And I may need to put this in the lawyer Q&A thread. But what we refer to as Kaine's affidavit starts out "do hereby swear and depose". The word 'depose' leads me to call it a deposition. Is it different from a deposition? Or is it a deposition.


Or is it a deposition *and* an affidavit.

[ame="http://www.hulu.com/watch/61320/saturday-night-live-shimmer-floor-wax"]Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Shimmer Floor Wax@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.hulu.com/embed/PmMF9mJkZpU_yAAch_4SAA@@AMEPARAM@@PmMF9mJkZpU_yAAch_4SAA[/ame]

 

[Pensfan]

In situation where neither parent is perfect, the "least detrimental alternative" will be used as an alternative judicial presumption. The presumption is that courts and clinicians should be guided by the more realistic notion that all children in separating or divorcing families are harmed to some extent. The goal is to find the solution that appears to harm them the least.

Both Terri and Kaine are going to be evaluated by a court appointed mental health clinician whether their attorneys request it or not. Why? Because the mental health profession is licensed by a national professional organization and they are highly encouraged to follow specific parameters (competency). If Terri or Kaine refuse an evaluation, they will not be granted custody or visitation. The evaluation can’t be complete until the mental health clinician has evaluated parties on both sides of the custody dispute.

The court will choose an evaluator that follows specific parameters established by the evaluator's professional organization, ie., AACAP, ASWB, or etc... The evaluator will try to meet with the parents together at least once if they will consent to it. The parents will be interviewed individually, as well, The evaluator will also interview other individuals who figure prominently in the child's or family's life: stepparent, potential stepparent, grandparents, babysitters, extended family, friends, neighbors, school personnel,and etc... A home visit to both homes may also occur. The evaluator will ask for permission to contact current and former psychotherapists and physicians of all of the children (including Terri’s older son even though his custody is not being addressed) and both parents.

http://www.aacap.org/page.ww?sectio...ctice+Parameters+for+Child+Custody+Evaluation

 

[Chablis]

Which makes a compromise and cooperation the much better answer.

Its not realistic. Kaine owes Terri nothing. She is in no position to ask for anything, and it looks like they realized it. No one will blame Kaine for not negotiating with some he thinks wanted him dead and is the last person known to see his missing child, Kyron is not more important than Terri. Its like people finding fault with the cheerleader who wouldnt cheer for her rapist. Besides, Terri wont even consent to testing to show shes fit to parent, so who really cares what she wants, if she thinks it should just be handed to her based on the fact shes the mother, she better think again.
jmo

 

[Trt]

Which makes a compromise and cooperation the much better answer.

Not in Kaine's opinion. Terri is a danger to him and his daughter. The better answer for him would be for Terri to be denied any type of visitation and the RO that denies her any contact be upheld. Seems Terri also agrees as she withdrew her request to have the judge decide visitation rights, after having been told by Kaine and his lawyer that there will be no compromise on the matter.

JMO

 

[Chablis]

We do know what Kaine said he did and that was intervene(and be met with Terri's venom). Terri's high-powered attorneys could have had a field day with the things that Kaine *didn't* mention in his affidavit. They could have *concluded* all sorts of things about Kaine as a parent because his affidavit wasn't complete(I'm sure a complete testimony would have been given on the witness stand).

So again, why did Terri and her lawyers just quit, with all of the ammo they had from Kaine's affidavit(why didn't you see to it that the baby was put to bed and didn't fall asleep on the couch with her mother who was drunk? So on and so on)...? Why didn't they fight?

JMO

Because not tending to a child that is with her mother is not as bad as a crime as MFH, or being a defacto suspect in a childs disappearance? I mean seriously, if her Lawyers tried to harp and get down on Kaine for that, his lawyers can just be like, are you serious, I mean not tending to the child, is that worse than when Terri was convicted of drinking and driving with her son in the car? I think not. The withdrew because there was nothing they could do to win.

jmo

 

[Trt]

In situation where neither parent is perfect, the "least detrimental alternative" will be used as an alternative judicial presumption. The presumption is that courts and clinicians should be guided by the more realistic notion that all children in separating or divorcing families are harmed to some extent. The goal is to find the solution that appears to harm them the least.

Both Terri and Kaine are going to be evaluated by a court appointed mental health clinician whether their attorneys request it or not. Why? Because the mental health profession is licensed by a national professional organization and they are highly encouraged to follow specific parameters (competency). If Terri or Kaine refuse an evaluation, they will not be granted custody or visitation. The evaluation can’t be complete until the mental health clinician has evaluated parties on both sides of the custody dispute.

The court will choose an evaluator that follows specific parameters established by the evaluator's professional organization, ie., AACAP, ASWB, or etc... The evaluator will try to meet with the parents together at least once if they will consent to it. The parents will be interviewed individually, as well, The evaluator will also interview other individuals who figure prominently in the child's or family's life: stepparent, potential stepparent, grandparents, babysitters, extended family, friends, neighbors, school personnel,and etc... A home visit to both homes may also occur. The evaluator will ask for permission to contact current and former psychotherapists and physicians of all of the children (including Terri’s older son even though his custody is not being addressed) and both parents.

http://www.aacap.org/page.ww?sectio...ctice+Parameters+for+Child+Custody+Evaluation

That is child custody as it relates to divorce. Terri also has an RO that does not expire until June 28th and that is IF Kaine decides not to have the order renewed(for which he would need to provide no additional information of danger to the court). Under the RO, Kaine would not automatically have to submit to any evaluations and neither would Terri just to make changes to the parenting time of the RO. That would have been up to the judge.

JMO

 

[Aedrys]

Yes, I could never have conceived of, if my husband had ever been unconscious on the couch, whether from drink, drugs, exhaustion, medical condition, or anything else, saying, "Well dammitall, if he's not going to take care of the baby, then neither am I!"

And I'm not saying Kaine did that. I don't know what Kaine did or didn't do.

I'm just sayin' what my thoughts are on parental responsibility when one's baby daddy or baby mama doesn't step up. My conviction is that one steps up oneself. No matter how frustrated. No matter how angry. No matter how tired. No matter how busy. No matter how unfair. No matter what. Baby first. No leaving a baby or child to languish in danger and/or neglect because the other parent doesn't meet their responsibilities. No passes.

My most humble opinion.

I agree the other parent should step up. How do we know that Kaine didn't step up in this case? What shred of evidence has TH offered that Kaine just let her be drunk and didn't do anything about it? Oh wait... She hasn't offered anything against him, not one shred of evidence that he's a bad parent. If he was such a bad parent, there would be evidence of that, but so far, there's nothing.

We don't know the intricacies of how Kaine responded to Terri being drunk. For all we know, he was the best parent he could be under the circumstances. He was the only one providing a roof, food, clothes, etc., for his family. That means he was gone a lot because he had to be. So on top of that, he's supposed to fix all of Terri's problems like she's a kid and not his adult wife? Terri is the only one responsible for Terri.

For all we know, he did the best he could with her. Maybe he should have thrown her out or divorced her sooner, but really, would making a huge scene and battle out of it be good for any child? Maybe he was trying to make things work without it turning ugly in front of the kids.

And who knows, maybe she was lying to him about it or sneaking around drinking. As much as he was gone because somebody had to work, there's no telling what she was up to that he didn't know about. And with nothing before Kyron went missing to suggest she was a danger to children, was he supposed to make a wild leap to that?

People forgive an awful lot of things when it comes to those they love, unbelievable things. It doesn't mean they are bad people or bad parents.

 

[Trt]

Question. And I may need to put this in the lawyer Q&A thread. But what we refer to as Kaine's affidavit starts out "do hereby swear and depose". The word 'depose' leads me to call it a deposition. Is it different from a deposition? Or is it a deposition.


Or is it a deposition *and* an affidavit.

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AFAIK, an affidavit is different from a deposition. Deposition would be where a lawyer would be allowed to ask questions based on a sworn testimony...let's unleash the lawyers(in my best NG impersonation )

 

[debs]

Its not realistic. Kaine owes Terri nothing. She is in no position to ask for anything, and it looks like they realized it. No one will blame Kaine for not negotiating with some he thinks wanted him dead and is the last person known to see his missing child, Kyron is not more important than Terri. Its like people finding fault with the cheerleader who wouldnt cheer for her rapist. Besides, Terri wont even consent to testing to show shes fit to parent, so who really cares what she wants, if she thinks it should just be handed to her based on the fact shes the mother, she better think again.
jmo

Terri's rights as a parent have been "de facto" severed with no cause, and a campaign to force her to testify against herself in an unrelated matter. Terri's parenting of K was never in question until it became a tool to use against her to force her into compromising her Fifth Amendment Rights to not incriminate herself in an active investigation.

The rape statement is not only unfair to Terri, but to all rape victims. It is not a comparison that represents what Terri is facing at all.

Everyone should care when someone's constitutional rights are on the line. EVERYONE should care. And she did consent to have herself evaluated and have that person testify to their findings.

It's in the motion to motion about the petition to motion about the affidavit.

I'm sure of that last part

 

[BeanE]

I agree the other parent should step up. How do we know that Kaine didn't step up in this case? What shred of evidence has TH offered that Kaine just let her be drunk and didn't do anything about it? Oh wait... She hasn't offered anything against him, not one shred of evidence that he's a bad parent. If he was such a bad parent, there would be evidence of that, but so far, there's nothing.

We don't know the intricacies of how Kaine responded to Terri being drunk. For all we know, he was the best parent he could be under the circumstances. He was the only one providing a roof, food, clothes, etc., for his family. That means he was gone a lot because he had to be. So on top of that, he's supposed to fix all of Terri's problems like she's a kid and not his adult wife? Terri is the only one responsible for Terri.

For all we know, he did the best he could with her. Maybe he should have thrown her out or divorced her sooner, but really, would making a huge scene and battle out of it be good for any child? Maybe he was trying to make things work without it turning ugly in front of the kids.

And who knows, maybe she was lying to him about it or sneaking around drinking. As much as he was gone because somebody had to work, there's no telling what she was up to that he didn't know about. And with nothing before Kyron went missing to suggest she was a danger to children, was he supposed to make a wild leap to that?

People forgive an awful lot of things when it comes to those they love, unbelievable things. It doesn't mean they are bad people or bad parents.

Just want to make sure you didn't miss this part of my post that you quoted, in which I mentioned neither Kaine nor Terri at all in any of the aspects your post comments on:

And I'm not saying Kaine did that. I don't know what Kaine did or didn't do.

 

[Trt]

Because not tending to a child that is with her mother is not as bad as a crime as MFH, or being a defacto suspect in a childs disappearance? I mean seriously, if her Lawyers tried to harp and get down on Kaine for that, his lawyers can just be like, are you serious, I mean not tending to the child, is that worse than when Terri was convicted of drinking and driving with her son in the car? I think not. The withdrew because there was nothing they could do to win.

jmo

Yep...they would also have to basically concede the point that their client was drinking until passing out and then that would be like saying "Yes, your husband was abusing you and your children, but why didn't you take your children and get out sooner?" to someone who is alleging abuse.

JMO

 

[debs]

Not in Kaine's opinion. Terri is a danger to him and his daughter. The better answer for him would be for Terri to be denied any type of visitation and the RO that denies her any contact be upheld. Seems Terri also agrees as she withdrew her request to have the judge decide visitation rights, after having been told by Kaine and his lawyer that there will be no compromise on the matter.

JMO

That same withdrawal states in fact that Terri does NOT agree with no visitation, and in fact reiterates that the best interests of her daughter are her foremost concern, but she is being forced to choose to protect her Fifth Amendment Rights and the Oregon Constitution (sec 12, I believe) and so "reluctantly" withdrew.

I'm sure Kaine will not compromise.