2010.11.03 Third party involved?

[agathawannabe]

IMO,there is NO way AB is not involved in at least the coverup. Too much clean up going on in the house, and not seeing Zahra?

In a word, NO. IMO.

He cannot narrow down when he last saw his daughter-HIS child. The one he was responsible for and had custody of.

that speaks to knowledge of the crime to me.

I understand where both of you are coming from, believe me.

At the same time, I figure if we've correctly deduced (with Railbugfreak's gracious help) that EB was able to hide an extra simultaneous marriage from AB for - what? - a year.. then maybe it's worth exploring the possibility she managed to hide a murder for a couple of days.

It's been a laborious sleuthing process for me to get to a point of even tossing this theory out for debate. But I feel like it does start to explain some things that didn't seem explainable to me any other way.

Think about the recent case politics in the media, too. (i.e. DP's off the table; NO, it's not; posturing by DA to rescind the deal possibly)

I think perhaps EB can't deliver her end of the bargain - without ratting out someone other than AB. And her goal in playing along with the deal was probably to bring up evidence she thought she could get AB implicated with (and get herself off light) - but, IMO, it hasn't worked. Maybe because she can't produce solid evidence that implicates AB.

(i.e. Did AB purchase a box of latex gloves somewhere? Is there any physical evidence connecting him? Is there even any circumstantial evidence? What do we really know?)

A lot of this involves "wait and see". IMO, the GJ hearing (scheduled tomorrow, right?) could be very telling.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

The huge amount of work and time that was required is my stumbling block to being able to agree with this scenario. Plus the fact that it all had to be done at one time if "they" were trying to keep Adam in the dark. They couldn't get the bedroom cleaned, painted (?) and detailed and then take a break before they had to face the same in the bathroom and kitchen. Does anyone have any idea of how many man-hours we're talking about here? I can't even begin to estimate but I would imagine it's huge. IIRC Elisa was quoted in one of the unsealed warrants that she, Adam and Zahra were all at the Octoberfest from 7PM until 9PM. (Notice that nothing from Adam confirms that they were even there.) But even if this were true, that's only two hours.

And wouldn't the huge clean up have had to begin immediately after the dismemberment? So you have to add the time it took to do that to the clean up time as well.

I wonder about the 6 cans of paint, too. If a lot of painting had been done then why were there 6 cans of paint left? Unless they were 6 empty cans of paint ~ but it doesn't say that in the warrant. . . Should it have? Is that what they meant?

These are just a few of the things that bother me about trying to put any theory together. There is just too much poor reporting from the media, inconsistent and conflicting statements by the principals and less than clear and forthcoming facts from LE, the state and the defense. I feel like I'm trying to put a puzzle together with extra pieces from another puzzle mixed in and many of the original ones that do belong are missing. . . :waitasec:

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I am sure she will rat anyone out whether they are guilty or not if she thinks it will get her a deal. However; I am not sure how much credibility LE thinks EB has ....who is a known liar.

imo

Of course not, they'll have to verify anything she says.

 

[westsidefox64]

BBM I might be losing my mind.. but have we seen in print somewhere that teacher(s) had given Zahra their phone number(s) because of concern for her? (Seems like I saw that somewhere.)

If so, and if EB found this out, I think it's entirely possible she might have pulled Zahra out of school for this reason.

Sad, but abusers will sometimes go to incredible lengths to both conceal the abuse and 'defend' their ability/opportunity to abuse.

MOO

goodness I need more caffiene it took me along time to find this lol.


http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/news/2010/nov/01/10/punishment-was-her-routine-ar-500792/

When Zahra went to school with a black eye, school officials called DSS, said neighbor Bobby Green. He said he saw DSS workers in the trailer.

He said a concerned teacher provided Zahra with her home phone number and told her to call.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

On the amount of work to do and the 6 cans of paint;

What if Elisa did the dismembering herself and simply left 'packets' for her *associates* to take care of. (Much like in a drug operation, funny that.)

What if Elisa did the touching up herself during the day.

This would leave only picking up the pieces from the house, doing a little spot checking, and then dumping and returning cars left to do.

 

[agathawannabe]

The huge amount of work and time that was required is my stumbling block to being able to agree with this scenario. Plus the fact that it all had to be done at one time if "they" were trying to keep Adam in the dark. They couldn't get the bedroom cleaned, painted (?) and detailed and then take a break before they had to face the same in the bathroom and kitchen. Does anyone have any idea of how many man-hours we're talking about here? I can't even begin to estimate but I would imagine it's huge. IIRC Elisa was quoted in one of the unsealed warrants that she, Adam and Zahra were all at the Octoberfest from 7PM until 9PM. (Notice that nothing from Adam confirms that they were even there.) But even if this were true, that's only two hours.

And wouldn't the huge clean up have had to begin immediately after the dismemberment? So you have to add the time it took to do that to the clean up time as well.

I wonder about the 6 cans of paint, too. If a lot of painting had been done then why were there 6 cans of paint left? Unless they were 6 empty cans of paint ~ but it doesn't say that in the warrant. . . Should it have? Is that what they meant?

These are just a few of the things that bother me about trying to put any theory together. There is just too much poor reporting from the media, inconsistent and conflicting statements by the principals and less than clear and forthcoming facts from LE, the state and the defense. I feel like I'm trying to put a puzzle together with extra pieces from another puzzle mixed in and many of the original ones that do belong are missing. . . :waitasec:

I know. Sometimes it really does seem hopelessly over-complicated somehow.

Although, I am reminded of the Susan Powell case. Somehow, JP (probably on his own) managed to make her disappear in a 24-hour span.. in freezing cold weather.. with 2 little boys in tow. And all we heard about was a fan blowing on a wet carpet stain.

So, for me.. maybe this comes down to "how many tweakers does it take to do a, b, c, & d while a couple of polka bands play?" (Sorry to use such flip phrasing in a discussion about a precious girl's demise.)

Keeping in mind, that EB (herself, OR assisted) may have had part of Thursday while AB was at work -and- however long AB's work day was on Friday. And then according to public statements - the *most* she slept Friday night would have been from 2:30a to 5:20a - but what if she had stayed up and continued cleaning house, writing a ransom note, etc? Could it be feasible with as many as 4 helpers?

 

[agathawannabe]

On the amount of work to do and the 6 cans of paint;

What if Elisa did the dismembering herself and simply left 'packets' for her *associates* to take care of. (Much like in a drug operation, funny that.)

What if Elisa did the touching up herself during the day.

This would leave only picking up the pieces from the house, doing a little spot checking, and then dumping and returning cars left to do.

Well, jinx MrsG! - aren't we on a wavelength together?

 

[westsidefox64]

The huge amount of work and time that was required is my stumbling block to being able to agree with this scenario. Plus the fact that it all had to be done at one time if "they" were trying to keep Adam in the dark. They couldn't get the bedroom cleaned, painted (?) and detailed and then take a break before they had to face the same in the bathroom and kitchen. Does anyone have any idea of how many man-hours we're talking about here? I can't even begin to estimate but I would imagine it's huge. IIRC Elisa was quoted in one of the unsealed warrants that she, Adam and Zahra were all at the Octoberfest from 7PM until 9PM. (Notice that nothing from Adam confirms that they were even there.) But even if this were true, that's only two hours.

And wouldn't the huge clean up have had to begin immediately after the dismemberment? So you have to add the time it took to do that to the clean up time as well.

I wonder about the 6 cans of paint, too. If a lot of painting had been done then why were there 6 cans of paint left? Unless they were 6 empty cans of paint ~ but it doesn't say that in the warrant. . . Should it have? Is that what they meant?

These are just a few of the things that bother me about trying to put any theory together. There is just too much poor reporting from the media, inconsistent and conflicting statements by the principals and less than clear and forthcoming facts from LE, the state and the defense. I feel like I'm trying to put a puzzle together with extra pieces from another puzzle mixed in and many of the original ones that do belong are missing. . . :waitasec:

BBM
Whats to say they didnt assuming she had help. Wash things up so it wasnt visible one day and paint the next. I have helped friends paint thier houses where they holler paint party. They supply food and drinks and friends pitch in. JMO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

BBM
Whats to say they didnt assuming she had help. Wash things up so it wasnt visible one day and paint the next. I have helped friends paint thier houses where they holler paint party. They supply food and drinks and friends pitch in. JMO

Especially with the added help of a little energy enhancing chemical or two.....

 

[panthera]

In a word, NO. IMO.

He cannot narrow down when he last saw his daughter-HIS child. The one he was responsible for and had custody of.

that speaks to knowledge of the crime to me.

It does to me also. And *if* he took part in the dismemberment and disposal, imo, he would have to be in agreement with the crime itself.

The demeanor of his 911 call, not being alarmed that Zahra was missing, and trying too hard during the 911 call to deflect everything onto the 'kidnapper' speaks volumes. In addition, seemingly being uninterested in the search for Zahra, or making any appeals to bring her home, also goes toward knowledge of what really happened. MOO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

^^ Whenever AB worked out what happened with Zahra he did not show any emotion, whether he was involved, worked it out during the last few days, or after Elisa's arrest, there has been very little reaction from him...He also seemed dull witted in response to the 'AY brother / AY ex scenario' and a number of other massive lies Elisa told him, unusual fellow who I fail to understand.

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

agatha,

Is this the info you were thinking of? It is indeed from 11.12

BBM:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/12/ng.01.html

CASAREZ: -- to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist. If those remains were found in this 2 1/2 foot deep hole, were they not preserved at least to some degree?

ARNALL: I think you`re exactly right. If the body was buried, I think the preservation is going to be better. While the exposed bone found five miles away may have lost its tissue due to decomposition. The remains that were found in the hole exactly as you said may be much better preserved.

 

[westsidefox64]

Interesting theory but I don't buy it. First, keeping Zahra's dead body in the house without AB knowing for any length of time even just a day or two is fraught with problems for EB. EB could not know he might not insist on going in at some point to see his 'broody' or 'fluey' daughter - or coming home early and finding her out getting rid of one mattress and acquiring another, keeping ZAhra out of the public eye is one thing but keeping her out of AB's wouldn't be that easy in such a small house.

Then there's the timeline, this scenario would only give said accomplices a very couple of hours to dismember the corpse and clean up, no, and they have to touch up paintwork too? Also if the deal EB has with the DA involves telling the truth and they find out AB wasn't involved (highly unlikely IMO) that's a HUGE lie and she's screwed and she knows it. No way it makes sense to me for her NOT to have named her accomplices if there were any by now. She's desperate to get away with as small a penalty as possible so she'd have rolled over on ANYONE with even the most tenuous connection to the crime and even more so on those with the reddest hands so to speak.

Ok Im as guilty as anybody else in thinking she was killed by accident but just supose she wasnt. What if EB fully intended to kill her for one reason or another. Maybe even plotted it out with accomplices.

Lets say she waited for AB to go to work, Murdered Zahra, dismembered her, placed the body in the car cover and comforter, her and an accomplice go to get rid of Zahra while one or 2 others stay behind to clean up the walls floors etc.. Take down the old bed and put up the new. Then make it look like Z is in her bed with pillows incase AB should look in on her. Have her little painting party etc...All this could easily be done in a day or 2 if she had help and AB wouldnt have to be there or know anything. As for AB helping get rid of the old bed she could say lets go put it in the trash at the old apt. so we dont have to pay for the extra cost of having it hauled away. Better do it at night so no one knows it was us putting it there since we dont live there anymore. This would explain the late night sighting by old neighbors. Its then placed in the Tahoe thus the hit on it by dogs.
Just a thought

 

[Hickory Born]

No one has mentioned the Odor of Death. I have personally experienced this in a house(with a natural death)

The body's bowels empty after death. If the body cavity was opened up during dismembering you would also have a distinct odor, which would not be pleasant.

It is not an easy task getting rid of these odors. So, if Adam lived in this house, he would have smelled the odor of death. IMO Adam was fully aware of Zahra's murder.

 

[agathawannabe]

agatha,

Is this the info you were thinking of? It is indeed from 11.12

BBM:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/12/ng.01.html

CASAREZ: -- to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist. If those remains were found in this 2 1/2 foot deep hole, were they not preserved at least to some degree?

ARNALL: I think you`re exactly right. If the body was buried, I think the preservation is going to be better. While the exposed bone found five miles away may have lost its tissue due to decomposition. The remains that were found in the hole exactly as you said may be much better preserved.

Kiki, you are a DEAR to surface that link! It doesn't have the quote I'm remembering, but it does have some related statements in it. Not the same article as I recall.. but tells me my memory is probably serving as to the approx date of the one I saw.

And.. I remember this article you're linking. The discussion in it about decomposition speeds is what made me inclined to "take" a few days off the 1-month decomp estimate for the bone that was found above-ground. So as I'd said early in this thread.. I'd seen an article that caused me to make mental note of Oct 3rd ("give or take").

And then this article, Kiki, along with a few other clues.. is what cause me to ("take" a few days) adjust the estimated date to Oct 7th (in my mind).

I don't know if I've made any sense here. :crazy:

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

No one has mentioned the Odor of Death. I have personally experienced this in a house(with a natural death)

The body's bowels empty after death. If the body cavity was opened up during dismembering you would also have a distinct odor, which would not be pleasant.

It is not an easy task getting rid of these odors. So, if Adam lived in this house, he would have smelled the odor of death. IMO Adam was fully aware of Zahra's murder.

Respectfully, IMHO, the smell of fresh paint could mask that, especially if there had been any mildew problems (in the bathroom), and Killz primer had been used.

Someone on the board suggested on another thread that perhaps the B's were getting low rent in exchange for 'fixing up' the house. I have rented places like that before.

IMO, this could have led to a perfect storm of convenience for EB.

I personally think it is not only possible, but probable that she had accomplices, and not impossible that AB was kept in the dark. MOO, etc.

 

[westsidefox64]

No one has mentioned the Odor of Death. I have personally experienced this in a house(with a natural death)

The body's bowels empty after death. If the body cavity was opened up during dismembering you would also have a distinct odor, which would not be pleasant.

It is not an easy task getting rid of these odors. So, if Adam lived in this house, he would have smelled the odor of death. IMO Adam was fully aware of Zahra's murder.

I dont remember what thread I posted in a day or 2 ago. With the clorox and who knows what other cleaning suplies were used and the fresh paint it very well could have trumped the death smell. I live on a farm where we butcher cows deer chickens etc and it really doesnt take long to get the smell out of the house.
Our daughter also bought a house where a man had died and laid and decomposed on the living room floor. She bought the house a few days after they removed the body. This man was a heavy smoker so we had to wash all the walls before painting them and the smell was gone very quickly.
JMO

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

Respectfully snipped:

Kiki, you are a DEAR to surface that link!

And then this article, Kiki, along with a few other clues.. is what cause me to ("take" a few days) adjust the estimated date to Oct 7th (in my mind).

I don't know if I've made any sense here. :crazy:

Shux! And yes, you're definitely making as much sense as can be made out of something like this.

O/T, but that's the day after my birthday

 

[Hickory Born]

Another thought on accomplices: People do not keep secrets. The more accomplices the easier for the truth to surface.

How many times have you told someone something and said, do not tell anyone...then that person tells someone else and says, do not tell anyone, etc. etc. It is common nature to share what you know and I contend people do not keep secrets.

 

[Etilema]

^^ Whenever AB worked out what happened with Zahra he did not show any emotion, whether he was involved, worked it out during the last few days, or after Elisa's arrest, there has been very little reaction from him...He also seemed dull witted in response to the 'AY brother / AY ex scenario' and a number of other massive lies Elisa told him, unusual fellow who I fail to understand.

I agree--his lack of reaction and other behavior patterns are baffling.