2011.01.30 new search north and west of Portland

[MsFacetious]

OMG.

This is an excellent observation.

DAD could have been viewed as a "female with red hair", by the witness.

This information about DAD, the fugitive who shot the LE, and whose house is located directly adjacent to one of the search areas, is the first time in this case that I have actually thought that it had the sound of the truth on what happened to Kyron.

Of course, I have the following questions:

1. Was DAD at the school that day?
2. DAD was a landscaper. Does DAD know TH?
3. Was is the solid evidence that LE has known about since Thanksgiving?

I agree that when DRIVING by going opposite directions and mostly seeing hair, you could mistake this guy for a woman. Especially if you were just checking to see if it was your friend. People's minds subconsciously go to "long hair = woman" and they have look harder to see it's a man. Driving by you wouldn't have time to do that.

I also want to know if he did have access to a white truck, which would be required in order for him to have been the person Chas saw. All I have seen is that he was driving a 1984 Dodge truck. This thing is NOT going to be mistaken for a newer Ford.

http://www.kval.com/news/local/114511039.html

I would also like to know if he had been stopped by police at all since June?

Did he think they were coming after him for something more serious when they pulled him over?

Had they been investigating him for something else when they pulled him over and that is why he snapped? Or was it the meds like his family thinks?

Have police looked for any connection between Terri and this guy?

http://www.kval.com/news/local/114834024.html

Oh... and another landscaper?!!?! ullhair:

 

[cluciano63]

Chas' sighting could have been another woman, or just about anyone in a white truck. His 30 minute timespan of what time he saw this person always made me leery of his memory. He said he was on his way to work, but that it was between 9:15-9:45, I believe, and that is a pretty big timespan for when you would be going to work. But then again, I am not a big believer in eyewitness accounts.

 

[maureen718]

I am very curious of some of the associations DAD has with theories in Kyron's disappearance. We have a whole list of 'avid landscapers' connected to the people involved don't we? I've seen several people in this case described using that term, I'm not sure why the word avid has been used over and over again. The theory of a handoff has worked for the timeline but no POI has ever been named, and we heard about a possible car chase or something involving a white truck and another car, possible a mustang, coming off Sauvie Island, does DAD fit with this scenario? I wonder what he was driving back in June? family says his behavior changed in June? did it? just curious if there could be a connection, it is a great big small world after all

 

[MsFacetious]

How did this DD red headed guy originally hurt his shoulder, since it occurred around the time Kyron disappeared? If his behavior changed with the shoulder injury (meds for it) maybe it also had something to do with what caused the injury. That'd be good to know. :waitasec:

Still, would TES or another experienced group that can work every day be harmful?

Unfortunately in Kyron's case, I do think TES could be harmful. And here is why.

After what happened with Haleigh and with Caylee... whether they deserve it or not, TES has damaged their reputation and credibility a bit. As we speak the defense is trying to use TES searches/records to prove the innocence of a mother accusing of murdering her 2 year old daughter.

Terri Horman has one of the best attorney's there is. Casey Anthony on the other hand.... well she doesn't have Terri Horman's attorney. :silenced:

If TES came out and searched and DID find Kyron... Terri Horman's attorney would RIP them to shreds. Using that to DEFEND her. I think there will be enough issue contesting any evidence found already with him as her attorney, without bringing in someone else to complicate matters. :twocents:

I understand you are an expert, so I appreciate your input. I was just going by the story:

"Weather conditions prevented the searching of these two locations a month or six weeks ago because of the snow up there, and dogs are not effective when it's below 40 degrees," said Multnomah County Sheriff's Sgt. Keith Krafve, a supervisor on the Kyron Horman Task Force."

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...-Oregon-boy/UPI-18491296409760/#ixzz1CfZzqqYC

This is a Sgt on the task force... not someone from SAR. I believe he is referring to the specific dogs they have out there. He just used a sweeping generalization like we often see.

Someone in SAR probably would have said: "The HRD dogs that we have out here today are not as effective when it's below 40 degrees. They just aren't trained for that."

Probably off topic now but you're right. Kids at 16 used to be married with families. But, I remember the little girl (Jessica?) who fell in the well and the rescue worker who later killed himself. Many said he never got over the stress of the event. I know that's just one case, but there are counselors on hand to help searchers in the event they find a body. I don't know. Kids today are different from how they used to be.

And Jessica LIVED. The stress of a successful, HAPPY rescue of a little girl that HE actually completed. He wasn't just a bystander. HE was the paramedic that pulled her out.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3728279&page=2

I had just turned 3 when Baby Jessica happened. I wasn't allowed to leave the house for a week until our well was sealed. And it had a 30 pound lid on it. :waitasec:

People that do SAR are awesome... they do amazing things. I am detached enough emotionally to do it, if I could do it physically.

I would not want teenagers doing SAR earlier on in the case. I wouldn't want a teenager finding a decomposing body. That's just me.

A skeleton, I think would be far less traumatic. Of course they still know it's still a body, a victim. However, they see skeletons in school. They don't see decomposing bodies.

If my teen was going to do SAR that is probably what I would do. Yes, they could go search for Kyron. No, not for Hailey yet. :twocents:

Baby Jessica 20 years later: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/19165433/ns/today-today_people/

 

[sarx]

Thank you MsFacetious. I missed some of the posts, so didn't see them to respond. Yes, I agree with you on both issues of TES and the dog misquote.

I think there is also some misinformation about TES, they do have lives as well and can't be out indefinitely on a case either.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I understand you are an expert, so I appreciate your input. I was just going by the story:

"Weather conditions prevented the searching of these two locations a month or six weeks ago because of the snow up there, and dogs are not effective when it's below 40 degrees," said Multnomah County Sheriff's Sgt. Keith Krafve, a supervisor on the Kyron Horman Task Force."

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...-Oregon-boy/UPI-18491296409760/#ixzz1CfZzqqYC

Yet another example of poor reporting or poorly written reporting.

Gee, I'm so shocked. Shocked, I tell you, shocked that in this case, there has been a piece of poor reporting. (just kidding)

On a serious note, it does seem like this case has been riddled with more than a fair share of poor or mistaken reporting.

 

[ahoyhoy]

About the dogs, y'all...

Cadaver dogs are trained to smell for gasses of decomposition, which are a by-product of bacterial action. Bacteria are only active and multiplying over 40 and under 140 degrees. LE would be waiting for a 24-hour period which had been over 40 degrees before they search it. Gotta give the bacteria time to wake up and start stinking.

The difference with SARescue dogs is that when they search for the living, the dogs are trained to smell carbon dioxide and/or the smell of a very newly-deceased person. Those smell are not temperature-related.

 

[sarx]

About the dogs, y'all...

Cadaver dogs are trained to smell for gasses of decomposition, which are a by-product of bacterial action. Bacteria are only active and multiplying over 40 and under 140 degrees. LE would be waiting for a 24-hour period which had been over 40 degrees before they search it. Gotta give the bacteria time to wake up and start stinking.

The difference with SARescue dogs is that when they search for the living, the dogs are trained to smell carbon dioxide and/or the smell of a very newly-deceased person. Those smell are not temperature-related.

Hmm, well that's amazing, cuz I've watched them find remains in temps below 40 degrees.

ETA-all scents are temperature related. They are all affected.

Just curious, in relation to these dogs... Are we saying it hasn't warmed up to above 40 degrees in the last 2 months?

And if anyone thinks that dead stuff doesn't smell below 40 degrees, think of wild animals, think of wolves, of coyotes, of any predator/scavenger.... They manage to find dead things under drifts of snow in ridiculously cold temps, how?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Still, would TES or another experienced group that can work every day be harmful?

I may well be mistaken but my impression was that TES deploys for a period of time during which they search as conditions allow. But if they don't find anything, they have to go home.

Otherwise, wouldn't they still be on Aruba looking for Natalee Holloway?

I'm not putting down TES, just trying to be realistic about what any search group can do.

My impression is that the area for a possible search is enormous. If they are now searching an area 22 miles from Skyline School, that means they think Kyron could have been taken that far, if you see what I mean. Just using geometry, that means that the potential search area is now just over 1520 square miles.

Now, quite a lot of that can be blacked out; for instance, any part of Portland that falls within that circle could be blacked out on the grounds that if there were remains in an urban or suburban area, they probably would be found by now. Plus, getting permission from every property owner to search even one square city block would take up huge amounts of administrative time (imagine an apartment building with 120 tenants--you'd need permission from every single tenant). You just have to trust that if Kyron's remains were within the urban/suburban area of Portland, he would have been found by now.

But that still leaves a huge amount of rural (farm) and wilderness area. Even if TES could deploy 1000 searchers, it would still be an incredible and impossible task to search every possible area within 22 miles of Skyline School.

Just going out and searching everywhere would be logistically impossible to do within a reasonable amount of time.

So in a situation like this, LE and searchers have to go with what credible possibilities they've developed. Could be from GPS records (although it seems that in this case, unfortunately, there are none), cell phone pings, forensic evidence, tips from the general public or speculation from people who know TMH well.

It seemed to me from the media coverage that they had a good turn out of SAR personnel. Judging from the names of the organisations, they are all based in territory much like that around Skyline School, which is an important consideration.

While I'm sure TES could help, it would still be the same situation: selecting areas based on probabilities. I'm not sure that TES could do that more effectively than the SAR personnel in the area and already familiar wiith the specific challenges posed by the conditions in that area.

 

[Nonni Brenda]

Wow. This makes it sound like this guy is just coming forward with this information. To have remembered that you saw a woman in a white truck besides a logging rode back on June 4 is hard to believe, unless the reason you had remembered it was because you knew there was something significant about that date, a child missing, etc. But if you knew that, why not come forward sooner? Are people really that afraid of speaking up?

I agree Cash. The fact that he remembers it being that date specifically, looks like he would have come forward long ago. This case has been too public for him to just now be hearing about it. Doesn't make sense to me.:waitasec:

 

[goatman]

They say truth is stranger than fiction. I can't help but think that the new search/location has something to do with this man. His long red hair could mislead a person who might think at glance or distance that he is a woman. TH is tall, so the mistake could easily be made. If this is the case, who would believe that could really happen? If so, I doubt they will find KH alive

I could see him being mislead. From almost the very beginning TH was the yet-to-be-named but we are going to flash your picture around POI. He saw a redhead with long hair in a white truck MUST be TH. I could see him making that mental jump (or really seeing TH).

 

[GrainneDhu]

Susan Harding is the reporter who used an AP article. If I could find her email, which I can't, I'd ask her if she can clarify it. Article says Fred said on Monday that he saw the white truck on June 4 and that he has called that tip into LE. I'd like to know if he just remembered that, and just called it in on Monday. Or, if he did so closer to June 4. Because at this point it's easy to think you remembered something and to be dead wrong. If he's remembering that now, I call BS.

Agreed. Well, I wouldn't say BS, I'd say that there is a high probability his memory is faulty. But yeah, I agree.

I know there isn't anything humorous about this case but it did occur to me that I wished KH didn't have such blah taste in pickup trucks. If he'd gotten a custom psychedelic paint job or gotten it flamed or painted it fluorescent pink or anything more memorable than plain white, it would make sightings easier to rely on.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I hope LE didn't tell Kyron's parents that this search might bring closure based on witness statements, there must be more to it than that. Although I still don't think they should have told Desiree anything that made her believe Kyron would be found on Sunday, until he is found. They could have just told the family they were searching based on new information and left it at that. Now she has to endure a week or more until another search and probably wonders if this is going to turn into another Sauvie Island.

I hope that they are asking DY and KH what their preference in information flow is and respecting that preference.

I know that if I were in DY's shoes, I would want to know every little bit that LE could tell me. The heck with how it made me feel, I'd want to know so I might be able to add my small bit of brainpower to the investigation.

When I've read about missing children investigations from the past, one common theme from families is that they were not kept informed and updated. That they wanted to know, even if it was bad news. Knowing something, no matter how minor or upsetting, is better than sitting in the dark.

I think there are also people who would prefer not to know.

The important thing to me is that LE respect the wishes of the individuals involved. Offer them as many choices as possible, to help restore some sense of control to their lives.

 

[Nonni Brenda]

Take a look at this picture. The man who shot the police officer lives across from the place the witness "Chas" saw a boy who looked liked Kyron and a woman with red hair. Could this be the reason police are looking in that area?

http://www.kval.com/news/local/114965034.html

This article also stated that investigators said that DAD is believed to want to, or has already traveled to places including Thialand. Hasn't Thialand been associated in the past with human trafficing? Just a thought.::waitasec:

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I feel this chas guy needs to be taken with a grain of salt.It sounds off and does this new witnesss.

I don't know -- two people who say they saw a red haired woman driving a white truck in the same area on the same morning? I say it's definitely possible.

 

[cluciano63]

I don't know -- two people who say they saw a red haired woman driving a white truck in the same area on the same morning? I say it's definitely possible.

I thought this newer witness said "long hair"-did he say "red hair" or long red hair"?

 

[ahoyhoy]

I don't need to quote whomever it was.

I'm not pretending to be an expert on anything; it's just everyone was positing the meaning of '40 degrees' and why those cadaver dogs couldn't work below that temperature. I was trying to explain, to help out.

OF COURSE animals who live outdoors can find frozen roadkill and the like---BUT remember, there are many, many scents out there in that piece of meat OTHER than decomp bacteria. Cadaver dogs, however, are SPECIFICALLY trained for ONLY decomp bacteria, so they're expensive to use and LE surely looked at the weather forecast to increase their odds. What they're looking for isn't going anywhere, and I'm sure DY and KH were fine with the waiting. It's just science, not bumbling or foot-dragging.*

When they're 'off the clock' I'm sure the dogs can find all sorts of things at any temperature. But they won't smell decomp bacteria unless it's over 40.

*Someone in the last few days here posted a link to the area weather since early November; the chart really did show that the only other search window when it was over 40, it was also raining. The search area is a high elevation and stays cooler than the city.


Btw, I thought it was obvious what I meant by 'not temperature related.' I meant that tracking dogs--dogs that are looking for living people--can smell their smells at any temperature. 'Their smells' being things like smells from personal effects, or CO2, as I mentioned before. Certainly the temp can make things better or worse, but they do work in all weather. They are rescue dogs.

 

[Shadowboy]

Yet another example of poor reporting or poorly written reporting.

Gee, I'm so shocked. Shocked, I tell you, shocked that in this case, there has been a piece of poor reporting. (just kidding)

On a serious note, it does seem like this case has been riddled with more than a fair share of poor or mistaken reporting.

Wanted to add more than a "thanks." I'm an old school reporter. I understand misinformation and unverified garbage gets spewed forth by blog writers; to do so is their right, as it is the right of every reader to question the source's veracity.

But, hello? This disease is now rampant in MSM. Bleh. Realize I'm probably OT. (On the other hand, I'm seeing a lot of OT stuff out here today, eh?)

Now .. back OT.

 

[MsFacetious]

I don't need to quote whomever it was.

I'm not pretending to be an expert on anything; it's just everyone was positing the meaning of '40 degrees' and why those cadaver dogs couldn't work below that temperature. I was trying to explain, to help out.

OF COURSE animals who live outdoors can find frozen roadkill and the like---BUT remember, there are many, many scents out there in that piece of meat OTHER than decomp bacteria. Cadaver dogs, however, are SPECIFICALLY trained for ONLY decomp bacteria, so they're expensive to use and LE surely looked at the weather forecast to increase their odds. What they're looking for isn't going anywhere, and I'm sure DY and KH were fine with the waiting. It's just science, not bumbling or foot-dragging.*

When they're 'off the clock' I'm sure the dogs can find all sorts of things at any temperature. But they won't smell decomp bacteria unless it's over 40.

*Someone in the last few days here posted a link to the area weather since early November; the chart really did show that the only other search window when it was over 40, it was also raining. The search area is a high elevation and stays cooler than the city.

Btw, I thought it was obvious what I meant by 'not temperature related.' I meant that tracking dogs--dogs that are looking for living people--can smell their smells at any temperature. 'Their smells' being things like smells from personal effects, or CO2, as I mentioned before. Certainly the temp can make things better or worse, but they do work in all weather. They are rescue dogs.

Unlike SARX who is a verified expert in SAR and K9 SAR, I am not an SAR expert.

However, I have also seen a Human Remains Detection dog find a body when the temperatures were in the 30's. Just as a bystander. So them not smelling decomposition below 40 degrees just simply isn't true, as SARX said. (I'm sure SARX can explain why... I just have my theories.)

If they were waiting to search to increase their odds because what they are looking for isn't going anywhere... they should have waited longer. The odds would have been even better on a warmer day after it rained. :waitasec:


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/01/cadaver_dogs_join_sundays_sear.html

The ideal day for a cadaver dog is between 65 and 80 degrees with sun, two days after it's rained, Neiman said.

"A day like today, on a scale of one to 10, is about a six," he said Sunday. "It can still be done. It just takes a little longer to do it."

(Of course, SARX can verify or shoot down the above if it is inaccurate. This is simply what the SAR guy on Kyron's search said.)

Thank you MsFacetious. I missed some of the posts, so didn't see them to respond. Yes, I agree with you on both issues of TES and the dog misquote.

I think there is also some misinformation about TES, they do have lives as well and can't be out indefinitely on a case either.

Thanks, I agree, TES can't do every search. It would be nice to have someone out there searching everyday... but if that's not possible it's not possible. If Kyron's parents can live with that then I'm sure that we all can too.

 

[sarx]

Ok, I don't want to go back and forth, feel free to believe what you want. Do some research, look up actual cases where remains were found in cold temperatures, where they were found in iced over water, in 35 degree rapids, it's out there.

I would like to add however, that there is truth in ideal temperatures, and when working HRD there honestly is not the urgency (there is to an extent for criminal reasons, but not for life), so waiting until conditions are right is preferable. Those conditions are certainly going to increase your odds of success.

I am not a fan of blanket statements, that's my only issue here with the quote made. KWIM?