2011.02.19 - Desiree puts on the pressure in Roseburg

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I can confidently state that a contract never happened because taking a contract out on someone, in definition, specifically is defined by an exchange of money. LE stated that the alleged murder for hire did not go beyond talk. We might not like it, but it's a fact.


http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c123.htm


"CONTRACT

An agreement between two or more competent parties in which an offer is made and accepted, and each party benefits. The agreement can be formal, informal, written, oral or just plain understood. Some contracts are required to be in writing in order to be enforced.

(2) An agreement between two or more parties which creates obligations to do or not do the specific things that are the subject of that agreement. Examples of a contract are a lease, a promissory note, or a rental agreement. "

I can offer to mow your lawn if you wash my windows. No money...just exchange of "services."

I believe LE stated that the "services" Terri offered in the MFH where similar to what she was "advertising" in her sexts.
 
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I do appreciate the striving to create some kind of defense for TH's defense. IMO she's going to need some creative distractions contrived by her lawyer(s) after she is eventually arrested. I don't believe OR has the death penalty. That's one thing in her favor already, although I believe a sentence of Life Without Parole is more horrible than death. That consoles me.

"Capital punishment is legal in the U.S. state of Oregon. The first execution under the territorial government was in 1851. Capital punishment was made explicitly legal by statute in 1864, and executions have been carried out exclusively at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem since 1904. The death penalty was outlawed between 1914 and 1920, again between 1964 and 1978, and then again between a 1981 Oregon Supreme Court ruling and a 1984 ballot measure.

Since 1904, about 60 individuals have been executed in Oregon. Thirty-four people are on Oregon's death row as of 22 December 2010.[1] The current method of execution in Oregon is lethal injection. Aggravated murder is the only crime subject to the penalty of death under Oregon law."

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Oregon[/ame]



Oregon does have the death penalty.
 
This whole case is weird. Really weird.

For instance, why was Bruce McCain on TV saying something to the effect that it was a shame a biological mother had to take matters into her own hands. I mean, in one sense it doesn't surprise me because he gives me the impression of being a publicity hound. But last I heard, he was DDS's attorney. Wazzup with that?

Somehow, something about DY's wording makes me wonder if they have decided to hire a PI to try to get more information about TMH. I know I've seen suggestions several times on WS that they should , I know that many families with missing loved ones do so (if they can afford it), so I wouldn't be surprised if DY hasn't hired a PI to try to move things forward.

Grainne, when did you hear that Bruce McCain was DeDe's attorney? The last that I heard Chad Stavely was her attorney.
 
No. "Took out a contract" does not have the same definition--it has it's own definition, which includes the exchange of money.

A good rule of thumb would be to take cues from LE--if Terri had taken a contract out on Kaine, LE would be referring to it in that manner. This is why they can only refer to what they alledge as a murder for hire.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c123.htm


"CONTRACT

An agreement between two or more competent parties in which an offer is made and accepted, and each party benefits. The agreement can be formal, informal, written, oral or just plain understood. Some contracts are required to be in writing in order to be enforced.

(2) An agreement between two or more parties which creates obligations to do or not do the specific things that are the subject of that agreement. Examples of a contract are a lease, a promissory note, or a rental agreement. "

I can offer to mow your lawn if you wash my windows. No money...just exchange of "services."

I believe LE stated that the "services" Terri offered in the MFH where similar to what she was "advertising" in her sexts.
 
From Twitter:

NatalieBrand Natalie Brand
New efforts underway to answer, "Where's Kyron?" Desiree Young and family passing out flyers in Terri Horman's neighborhood. Fox 12 @ 5pm
30 minutes ago

This thread is about the Opening Post above. It's getting way OT in here.

If there is a topic you want to discuss that doesn't have to do with the OP, find a thread about it or open a new one.

:tyou:
 
"Capital punishment is legal in the U.S. state of Oregon. The first execution under the territorial government was in 1851. Capital punishment was made explicitly legal by statute in 1864, and executions have been carried out exclusively at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem since 1904. The death penalty was outlawed between 1914 and 1920, again between 1964 and 1978, and then again between a 1981 Oregon Supreme Court ruling and a 1984 ballot measure.

Since 1904, about 60 individuals have been executed in Oregon. Thirty-four people are on Oregon's death row as of 22 December 2010.[1] The current method of execution in Oregon is lethal injection. Aggravated murder is the only crime subject to the penalty of death under Oregon law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Oregon



Oregon does have the death penalty.

Good - then TH has something to look forward to. IMO, of course.
 
It really just doesn't work that way. You can't multiply weak evidence to get strong evidence. Nothing on the list actually adds up to the kind of circumstantial evidence that works in court when added up. That kind of evidence is: nobody saw her do it, but we saw her running away from the site with bloody clothes. Believe it or not, that is what is meant by circumstantial evidence, not "we don't know if we think her story is plausible enough".

Things you believe you may know are even less persuasive. The more vague your sense of how much there is becomes -- the more it feels to you like one big persuasive ball of weaker claims adding up to one strong one -- the more likely it is you have been led astray by something every single person can experience.

Again, there is a well-known effect which all human beings can experience -- regardless of intelligence, and if anything, more intelligent people are more susceptible. This psychological effect results in the perception of a stronger argument than empirically exists.

If I say to you "That man looks like a creep", you evaluate only that claim -- you look at him and see if you think he looks like a creep.

If I say "That man looks like a creep, and he did something creepy to me" you are now MUCH more likely to see him as looking creepy because your mind thinks it has evidence he behaves creepy.

If I say "That man looks like a creep, and he did something creepy to me, and I've heard he's done lots of creepy things" something odd happens. Now you will begin to filter everything you see him doing through the assumption that it is more likely to be creepy. Because we tend to perceive what we look for -- because it is extremely easy to make anyone look creepy if you assume they are creepy first -- then you start seeing all kinds of "evidence" that makes you absolutely certain he really is not just creepy but constantly and dangerously creepy.

But you still have the same evidence you started with -- unsubstantiated claims and subjective interpretations.

Terri may very well have been involved in some way. I have no idea what happened. But it's very clear to me that a whole lot of people at some point chose her as their POI and then began to make the facts fit their theory instead of the other way around.

Thanks wasn't enough.

That is a great explanation of a well known phenomenon.

That is often a factor in many false convictions. Once people believe that a specific person is guilty, everything that person does makes them seem guiltier.

Dr Steven Hatfill, for example, was named a "person of interest" by the FBI in the anthrax attacks and suspected for several years. His behaviour was scrutinised heavily in the media and boy, did he look guilty.

Turns out he wasn't. All that suspicious behaviour? The actions of an innocent man whose life was ruined.
 
way to go Desiree!

this is great news...

I am so glad to see her doing this.
 
Just FYI: Gayle King show on the OWN just had a little piece about Desiree hanging flyers in Terri's area. It was short, but at least it was something. The thing that got me was at the end, after saying she's been following the case from the beginning, etc., Gayle called Kyron 'Kyle'. UGH.
 
No. "Took out a contract" does not have the same definition--it has it's own definition, which includes the exchange of money.

A good rule of thumb would be to take cues from LE--if Terri had taken a contract out on Kaine, LE would be referring to it in that manner. This is why they can only refer to what they alledge as a murder for hire.




That is a legal website. I think I will use their definition.

Besides the essence of what Desiree said..is clearly understood by many. Adding or subtracting a word or phrase used by a grieving Mother is an exacting burden and does really nothing to enhance Terri's "position."

Did she "take out" a contract...make an offer of sexual favors....offer to provide drugs..offer to kill someone the Landscaper hated as she hated Kyron?

It's all equally vile. Currency is not the issue. Word play is silly.

But more importantly...Parsing words does not make Desiree irrational.

Perhaps we need a poll to see of "we all agree" that there was no Murder for Hire plot.

That could solve that area of debate. LOL!

Whether you call it a "contract" or "taking out a contract" or a "plot" or an exchange of services..or any manner of similar expressions...there was nothing irrational in Desiree's claim.

If Terri just offered sexual favors for killing another human being...does that somehow make the situation less vile? And it is "alleged" because no charges have been filed. There is nothing irrational in believing what LE has told Kaine and Desiree...simply because it has not yet led to criminal charges.

Let's delete those Haliegh threads...no charges..so...no crime could POSSIBLY have been committed.

Really?

Terri has forfeited her Baby.

Now THAT is something to "take your cue from."
 
I just don't know....I read about Desiree's statement of overwhelming evidence, and I'd like to know more, then I am reminded that her judgment is not rational at this time, example being that Terri took out a "contract" on Kaine--we all know that didn't happen... Still waiting for LE to release some actual evidence...




]

BBM I personally believe that Desiree is in a very rational state of mind. She is doing what is necessary to keep the pressure on Terri Horman. Terri Horman has moved on with her life doing the ordinary things and enjoying life to the fullest. While Kaine and Desiree and their extended family is still reeling and want to give Kyron a proper goodbye.

If Terri is going out to bars and celebrating the Holidays she needs a harsh reality check that life isn't just going to go on after she left the devastation in her wake. Desiree is very rational by deciding it is time to remind Terri Horman that this is not over by a long shot.

Many times keeping the pressure on a person for long periods of time force them to make vital mistakes which could help this case along.

What a bitter pill to swallow and a reality check for Terri being called out and stifled by the one woman she disliked the most. Kyron's mother Desiree Young.

If anything, it is Terri Horman who has her signals mixed up and has not acted rationally since June. MOO
 
Respectfully snipped by me for space. I'm sorry, but the example of the circumstantial evidence you cited that works in court is actually an example of physical evidence. The blood on the clothes of someone running from a crime scene would be physical evidence, while the person running from the scene would be circumstantial evidence.

I'm sure you are aware of the scott peterson case. There was essentially zero physical evidence that tied him to the murder of his wife and child, except possibly a single hair found on his boat which could easily be explained away by the fact that married couples will likely transfer fibers, skin cells, hairs, saliva, etc., from one to another. That hair was not what convicted scott. No, it was his behavior that did it, according to jurors, much of which is similar to the behavior we see in this case:

He had an explanation for where he was at the time his almost ready to pop wife went missing but it did not make much sense. Who goes fishing out on a bay, without proper bait, on Christmas eve, when their wife is close to her due date? - Likewise in this case, TH just happened to be roaming back country roads for a few hours with a sick baby to "soothe her earache" at the very time her stepson went missing, in a remote area near where her cell phone was reported to be pinging (the same place they have now conducted multiple searches, BTW, which is kind of how we know the unsubstantiated report is likely accurate). To most of us, TH's "alibi" makes little sense.

He was surfing for *advertiser censored* and engaging in an affair at a time when his beloved, pregnant wife could not be found. - Likewise in this case, TH engaged in explicit sexual behavior with a guy, at a time most people would be filled with fear and anguish, and not in a desperate, turning to another for comfort and security kind of way, but rather, in a lurid "I'm an out of control teenager" kind of way.

There are other similarities I see but it is clear that without the bodies of his wife and child turning up in the very place he said he was when Laci went missing, we might still be waiting for a trial. I think we need the same thing to happen here. Nevertheless, the peterson case was almost 100% circumstantial. Virtually no physical evidence tied him to the murder. Yet there he sits, on death row. And he is far from the only one to be convicted on purely circumstantial grounds - the kind of circumstantial evidence that you do not believe works in court.

Speaking strictly as a layperson, there was one single piece of evidence that convinced me and it wasn't the hair in the pliers (I thought that was really weak, considering they were married).

The one piece of behavioural evidence that convinced me was when it was revealed that he bought a one day fishing license four days in advance of a fishing trip that was supposedly just a spontaneous whim. To me, that spoke to premeditation. If he'd spent the day with Amber, then I might have had some doubt about it. But he didn't see her that day, so what did he need to arrange an excuse in advance for?

So far, I haven't seen any evidence that strong in Kyron's case. Maybe it exists, maybe not. I'm a little cynical because in following cases over the years, I've seen too many LE agencies, up to and including the FBI, imply that they have a lot of evidence, only to find out it was an overstatement or bluff.

I'm starting to think that if Sheriff Staton is not planning to ask for any more money, either he plans to arrest TMH or it is a tacit admission the case has gone cold (in the sense of not enough evidence to convict anyone and a low likelihood of finding more evidence).

And... if there is enough evidence to convict TMH, then why hasn't she been arrested?
 
I just don't know....I read about Desiree's statement of overwhelming evidence, and I'd like to know more, then I am reminded that her judgment is not rational at this time, example being that Terri took out a "contract" on Kaine--we all know that didn't happen... Still waiting for LE to release some actual evidence...




]

So, Deisree is not rational, and she made up the COPS telling her Terri tried to kill Kaine via MFH? Please dont insult Desiree, and when you say, we all know that Terri didn't try to kill Kaine, sorry, that is just not true, can you prove she didn't, or do you think no arrest means she didn't? If she was arrested for it I am sure her supporters would cry that shes being framed.
 
I just don't know....I read about Desiree's statement of overwhelming evidence, and I'd like to know more, then I am reminded that her judgment is not rational at this time, example being that Terri took out a "contract" on Kaine--we all know that didn't happen... Still waiting for LE to release some actual evidence...




]

"We all" know no such thing. Feel free to speak for yourself, but leave "we" out of it. Thanks. Furthermore, I think Desiree is showing perfectly rational judgment at this time.
 
Look, I am all for finding Kyron. I love him and want him home to a loving family. But I have to ask, if DY and TY felt this strongly about TH, why not have put the flyers out the day she went to her parents, Why just now....If it were me, and it is not, I'd be on the corner of their street putting the flyers out...I personally, would not have waited this long. But what do I know!

That one seems fairly easy to answer: KH and DY have been (probably inadvertantly) shone on by LE. Every time a new tip comes in, every time a search is started, each new piece of evidence (whether it really relates to the case or not), gives fresh hope.

Up goes the rollercoaster!

And then every time the searchers come back empty handed, every tip that goes nowhere, every meeting where they hear that there just isn't (enough) evidence yet, dashes their hopes.

Down goes the rollercoaster!

But in a way, it turns into a seductive cycle. Each new hope leads to a new disappointment but is followed up by a new hope. There's this constant almost superstitious belief that if they do everything just right, one of those hopes will be fulfilled. Just gotta hang in there, keep hoping, do the right stuff and it can't possibly turn out wrong... can it?

It goes on and on and on, while they really have no idea what to do next. Stay at home? Fly to one of the coasts to try a big media push? Do fundraisers in Portland? Stay quiet and keep trying to have faith that LE knows what they are doing? Say to heck with what LE wants and go out searching on my own? Break the faith with LE in some way by hiring a PI?

Gosh, it makes my head hurt to think of it all and I'm not even related to Kyron.

Then there is the possibility that KH and DY are no longer working together because of some hinted-at disagreement. Even if they are no longer feeling particularly supportive of one another, neither of them wants to get in the other's way, for fear of ruining some chance of getting Kyron back.

I've been in a slightly similar situation, when my service dog went missing for ten days. I got so emotionally fried so quickly that all I could do was pick a couple friends that I knew from previous experience to be exceptional strategic thinkers and do whatever they suggested I do. I am so, so grateful that it worked, that due to the wise counsel of my friends, I got my beloved dog and helper back.

I've also watched other missing persons cases and it seems to me that the families do follow certain patterns. For instance, they almost always start out with huge trust in LE, willing to cooperate fully, certain that if they just do everything someone in a uniform tells them to do, they will get their loved one back. Then, as the weeks and months go by, the family starts to doubt. They start to disagree with LE about what direction to try next. That is when families are most likely to start doing things such as DY's fliers in Roseberg. Some families or family members go through a stage where they express a great deal of anger and frustration with LE.

Going through all this takes up a lot of time and a lot of emotional energy. And after the first month or so, real life starts to intrude. Employers want to be generous... but can't afford to hold a position open forever. The bills have to be paid and the bank, the utilities, etc, can't hold off being paid forever. If there are other children, those other children need even more time and energy than usual because they too are traumatised.

Does this make sense? I think I'm trying to say that there are so many different factors and conditions pulling families in so many conflicting directions, that it usually does take a while, sometimes a long while, before a family may take some decisive action.
 
I can confidently state that a contract never happened because taking a contract out on someone, in definition, specifically is defined by an exchange of money. LE stated that the alleged murder for hire did not go beyond talk. We might not like it, but it's a fact.

No, that is NOT true! People sign contracts to buy cars and homes with no money down all the time! Only the PROMISE of money or goods or services in return. The consideration does not have to change hands at the time the contract is made. I have no doubt in my mind there was some sort of understanding between Terri and the landscaper. Fortunately for Kaine the contract was not completed.
 
Multnomah County Sheriff Dan Staton will talk about the Kyron Horman case next week in front of the county commission. According to sources, he won't ask for additional funding for the case, but commissioners will be able to question him about the investigation.


http://northwestportland.katu.com/n...-goes-national-tv-message-terri-horman/438616

I know we keep hearing that he won't ask for money. But, I'm almost positive when Desiree was asked what he would talk about she said he was going to ask for help from more agencies and ask for more funding.

Maybe a different agency would have a different funding source? It doesn't seem like she would have pulled that statement out of the air. I would hope they would give her some idea of what they were to discuss so she wouldn't be blindsided.

Does anyone else remember this? I can't go back and check the video now but I know it was from one of the recent ones...the news or GMA...
 
No, that is NOT true! People sign contracts to buy cars and homes with no money down all the time! Only the PROMISE of money or goods or services in return. The consideration does not have to change hands at the time the contract is made. I have no doubt in my mind there was some sort of understanding between Terri and the landscaper. Fortunately for Kaine the contract was not completed.

No kidding, anyone who watched NG remembers that young dark haired gal who solicted a man to kill her husband and she would pay after she got the insurance, and then while at the police station, the cops had the hubby duck his head in and say hi, so it does seem that some are not aware of how these things work.
 
OK guys. First this thread is getting snarky.... pull in your horns and make your points without the attacking one another please. Secondly this thread is way OT. Murder for Hire OT.... we are going sideways.

Let's get back to "Desiree puts on the pressure in Roseburg"........ thanks.
 
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