2011.03.07 Motion Hearing - *Updated* Key Ruling In! See Motions Thread (sticky)

[RR0004]

I sure hope we'll see the rulings tomorrow...I'm busting at the seams!!

 

[Dignity4Victims]

No.

If LE is going to take the person into custodial interrogation, then LE has to Mirandize when making the arrest. But LE can arrest you, book you, and put you in jail without ever having Mirandized you as long as they don't ask you any questions after the arrest.

This is why the Universal Q&A is ambiguous, because it can be reasoned that KC was in a custodial interrogation (didn't feel free to leave), and should have been Mirandized.

BBM - and that is exactly my point.

Caylee was still yet "missing" as of July 16th when they arrested Casey. I don't think anyone, including the State would try to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, Judge Perry or the Defense and claim that with a "missing" 2 year old, LE had no further intentions of questioning Casey.

In fact, several of the investigators as well as the FBI indicated that they did wish to talk to Casey in order to locate Caylee.

 

[Turnadot]

BBM - and that is exactly my point.

Caylee was still yet "missing" as of July 16th when they arrested Casey. I don't think anyone, including the State would try to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, Judge Perry or the Defense and claim that with a "missing" 2 year old, LE had no further intentions of questioning Casey.

In fact, several of the investigators as well as the FBI indicated that they did wish to talk to Casey in order to locate Caylee.

What?

I'm confused, which I concede is my own fault.

I was responding to your assertion that: Once a person is arrested, they must be Mirandized.

And that isn't true.

As for the detectives and FBI having questions for KC after the July 16 arrest, I'm sure they had plenty, but that doesn't mean they asked, considering she did nothing but lie to them before. Maybe they tried another tactic – for example, LE could have arrested KC on July 16, booked her and tossed her in jail without uttering a single question; no need to Mirandize her then. Perhaps they were hoping some time in the slammer might loosen her lips. It didn't. No reason to Mirandize her for the theft charge either, really. I doubt they needed to have a Q&A with her about that; she was caught on tape.

I can well believe there wasn't a need to Mirandize KC until her October arrest.

 

[Dignity4Victims]

snipped for focus

Maybe they tried another tactic – for example, LE could have arrested KC on July 16, booked her and tossed her in jail without uttering a single question; no need to Mirandize her then.

Except for the fact that isn't what happened, proven at the last Hearing as several investigators and the FBI each tried their own 'versions' of extracting additional information from Casey Anthony and I will add that their mission was more than reasonable considering the fact that Casey wasn't arrested as "the town drunk" - she had a "missing" baby, and no investigator in his right mind is going to ignore that and not want more information from the baby's mother.

Bottom line, this shouldn't even be bantered about between the State & Defense. There should be no "big mystery" whether Casey was read her Miranda rights or not considering the State should have Casey's signature on that Miranda form.

Someone is playing games of "word gymnastics", (thank you Judge Perry), and it began at the last Hearing and wasn't challenged by LDB. I have confidence that HHJP will come along behind the lies with his big push-broom and clean up the mess with accurate legal rulings. Whether it will be to the benefit of the State or the Defense is yet to be determined.

 

[Turnadot]

Except for the fact that isn't what happened, proven at the last Hearing as several investigators and the FBI each tried their own 'versions' of extracting additional information from Casey Anthony and I will add that their mission was more than reasonable considering the fact that Casey wasn't arrested as "the town drunk" - she had a "missing" baby, and no investigator in his right mind is going to ignore that and not want more information from the baby's mother.

Bottom line, this shouldn't even be bantered about between the State & Defense. There should be no "big mystery" whether Casey was read her Miranda rights or not considering the State should have Casey's signature on that Miranda form.

Someone is playing games of "word gymnastics", (thank you Judge Perry), and it began at the last Hearing and wasn't challenged by LDB. I have confidence that HHJP will come along behind the lies with his big push-broom and clean up the mess with accurate legal rulings. Whether it will be to the benefit of the State or the Defense is yet to be determined.

Yeah. I'm nervous about HHJP's ruling on this issue, but OTOH, I can't wait to see it, because I think it's not nearly as convoluted as Mason tried to present it. Hopefully HHJP will rule Friday.

 

[AZlawyer]

I really appreciate your views and understand them but we are going to have to agree to disagree! I don't think the case law supports the view that once the questioning becomes accusatory that a reasonable person would then necessarily believe that he or she is not free to leave. I've also never known a trial court to give any side a "bone" when it comes to the legal question related to the issue of custodial interrogation re the admissibility of a defendant's statements in a capital case. In my experience, all trial courts rule in such matters with a view toward appellate review. As such legal issues are reviewed de novo by an appellate court (as opposed to review by an abuse of discretion standard) there's nothing to gain and much to lose for a trial judge to throw either side a "bone". JMHO

bbm
AZLawyer found a few that seem to support this. At least one, the Ross case, was cited by the defense to support their motion to have this statement thrown out.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2011.01.04 Defense Motion to Suppress Casey's Statements

SoCal is right that it is not automatic that someone is found to be in "custody" if they are being accused of a crime. It is just one of the factors considered. In the last few years, IMO it is one of the factors that the Florida appellate courts have emphasized. But reasonable minds can differ on whether Casey was in "custody" even after the door closed at Universal. Balancing all the facts, I think she was. Hopefully tomorrow, we'll see HHJP's ruling. And a couple of years from now, maybe we'll see the Florida Supreme Court's ruling too lol.

 

[Turnadot]

I was getting a strawberry frap Thursday afternoon and there was a policeman at the counter - we sort of stepped to it at the same time - anyway, he asked me, ' Oh, were you here first?'

Guys, he didn't Mirandize me. I think I have a case here.

 

[Dignity4Victims]

Yeah. I'm nervous about HHJP's ruling on this issue, but OTOH, I can't wait to see it, because I think it's not nearly as convoluted as Mason tried to present it. Hopefully HHJP will rule Friday.

I'm not a bit nervous about it. I strongly believe in true justice and no matter which 'side' made the screw-ups and/or lies and no matter how much we detest Casey Anthony, she is rightfully due her Constitutional privileges.

I don't care on which side these rulings fall, either side deserves what they get if the rules of justice aren't followed. If Casey Anthony is to be convicted, I want her to be rightfully convicted.

 

[Turnadot]

SoCal is right that it is not automatic that someone is found to be in "custody" if they are being accused of a crime. It is just one of the factors considered. In the last few years, IMO it is one of the factors that the Florida appellate courts have emphasized. But reasonable minds can differ on whether Casey was in "custody" even after the door closed at Universal. Balancing all the facts, I think she was. Hopefully tomorrow, we'll see HHJP's ruling. And a couple of years from now, maybe we'll see the Florida Supreme Court's ruling too lol.

Right. I don't think I'd feel like I were in custody, but I'm not sure I'm being completely honest with myself either, which is why I'm glad there are people like HHJP. He will be be objective, rule based on law and ensure KC is treated fairly in Court and in turn, Caylee will get justice.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Right. I don't think I'd feel like I were in custody, but I'm not sure I'm being completely honest with myself either, which is why I'm glad there are people like HHJP. He will be be objective, rule based on law and ensure KC is treated fairly in Court and in turn, Caylee will get justice.

You know what just occurred to me in my morning fog? I think whether or not you "feel" like you are in custody while being questioned...i.e., feeling cornered....is if you are guilty of something or not. If you are innocent, what is there to hide anyway? So what does it matter if you are questioned.
I know that is an innocent way of thinking and people get railroaded into making admissions, etc. while being marathon questioned....but I think if you are truly innocent, you would be cooperative?
I don't know, am I "sleep typing"???? I'll check in after another cup of coffee...or two!

 

[Aedrys]

SoCal is right that it is not automatic that someone is found to be in "custody" if they are being accused of a crime. It is just one of the factors considered. In the last few years, IMO it is one of the factors that the Florida appellate courts have emphasized. But reasonable minds can differ on whether Casey was in "custody" even after the door closed at Universal. Balancing all the facts, I think she was. Hopefully tomorrow, we'll see HHJP's ruling. And a couple of years from now, maybe we'll see the Florida Supreme Court's ruling too lol.

You're probably right as usual, but what bothers me is that LE didn't know what crime had happened or if a crime had happened here. A baby was missing, but they didn't know if she was dead, if the mother was just hiding her and it was some sort of domestic dispute, or if this was just a domestic dispute over a car and the baby was okay somewhere. Wouldn't that factor in somehow? It's not like they found her with blood on her hands or with a murder weapon. They had no idea what was going on here and were trying to figure that out. It makes it a lot more shaky to me, anyway. And aren't people, when they are truly arrested, usually charged right away with something? I don't think she was even charged with anything until a lot later down the road...anyway, it muddies the water for me, I'm just not sure it does the same for people like you or HHJP.

 

[Bee Charmer]

Aedrys, excellent point. IMO, there has to be some leeway accorded to LE in their investigation of a complaint. This family called them to investigate the "kidnapping" of Caylee so how is it possible that now LE is being criticized for doing what they were summoned for?

Have we hamstrung our police officers this much in this Country?

:banghead:

 

[doogiesgirl]

I have no legal knowledge to go on so...

I have to say that I find police completely intimidating. Just the sight of them. But KC showed no signs of fear or intimidation. She didn't cry and say "I want to see my parents, or I don't want to talk anymore right now", no she continued on answering questions with complete lies. So at the end of it all, when you look at the big picture, the A's called LE to help them, KC said she wanted LE's help - and at no point did she say...."enough, please leave" or anything like it. So, in my mind....it stands.

:cow:

 

[comomx3]

If I LIED to the POLICE after taking them on a wild goose chase AND I KNEW I had KILLED my child I would feel like I was in custody in that situation. HOWEVER, If I was innocent I would not have felt like it. I would have felt like a good citizen helping out the police and this was the least I could do all because I had done nothing wrong.

 

[watcher9]

Last night I was reading the book Mommy's Little Girl by D Fanning my daughter had given me. Even though I am finding some facts are loosely reported, I do remember seeing a video like what was written on pages 193-194.

JB was speaking at the July 20, 2008 vigil and said that his client at no time refused to speak with law enforcement and then directed "everybody's attention to the arrest report, which clearly states that the police were called out on the fifteenth of this month, and she spoke with them immediately on that day, and then on the following day, practically the entire day she spent with law enforcement. Only upon being arrested and might be detained that she invoked her right to counsel, as I think anyone would do in this country. We are focused on trying to find Caylee."

This morning, I searched all over and have not been able to find an article or video that includes JB's statement, but did find this -
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67680&page=23
Leila post #559
Is this the same cam still camped out in the G'parents' yard? Geezils!
I think it is! Earlier tonight, Geraldo was interviewing the attorney, Jose Baez, and investigator, Joe Matthews, who were seated on what appeared to be patio chairs on a driveway. I presumed it was the driveway at the home of George and Cindy Anthony. In fact, I think I recognized George crossing the driveway in the background at one point.

So, Fox News may be camped there.

I hope someone else remembers this too. During this period of time the whole focus was on finding Caylee, even though ICA was lying with every breath she took.

I hope HHBP lets everything in.

 

[strawberry]

C'mon C'mon tick tock tick tock :HHJP: :HHJP:

 

[Mendara]

rule already!

 

[ZsaZsa]

I have no legal knowledge to go on so...

I have to say that I find police completely intimidating. Just the sight of them. But KC showed no signs of fear or intimidation. She didn't cry and say "I want to see my parents, or I don't want to talk anymore right now", no she continued on answering questions with complete lies. So at the end of it all, when you look at the big picture, the A's called LE to help them, KC said she wanted LE's help - and at no point did she say...."enough, please leave" or anything like it. So, in my mind....it stands.

:cow:

Not only was she not intimidated by LE, she had NO qualms about lying and trying to bamboozle them, you only have to listen to her story about which phone was where, what she had done with the SIM card to know she was enjoying trying to confuse YM. She had obviously done this routine before...

 

[Aedrys]

If I LIED to the POLICE after taking them on a wild goose chase AND I KNEW I had KILLED my child I would feel like I was in custody in that situation. HOWEVER, If I was innocent I would not have felt like it. I would have felt like a good citizen helping out the police and this was the least I could do all because I had done nothing wrong.

Yes, but you are normal person. Casey really thought she could lie her way out of this. No way did she ever feel she was in custody at any time. It was more like having a conversation with two hot LE detectives. She was literally FLIRTING with them at one point! I guess I'm saying Casey is not normal like we are. None of us would go as far as she did knowing we did something to our child and now the police were looking at us. She didn't even break a sweat!

 

[chefmom]

I was getting a strawberry frap Thursday afternoon and there was a policeman at the counter - we sort of stepped to it at the same time - anyway, he asked me, ' Oh, were you here first?'

Guys, he didn't Mirandize me. I think I have a case here.

Omg! Too funny!

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: