2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[strawberry]

On WFTV, the 6th segment of the video from yesterday has sound from the 5th part. I've emailed them and asked them to fix it, but they haven't yet. Does anyone know if a video of the entire hearing is posted somewhere else online? I'd really like to watch that portion.

thanks in advance.

Funny you should ask. I just posted this awesome youtube channel on the Amil thread:

http://www.youtube.com/user/S0meRand0mName

PS I LOVE your icon!

 

[strawberry]

I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.

I'm too lazy to try and find the discussion of the Manson Ranch. Can someone point me to it or summarize what the problem with it was? Thanks!:innocent:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

If this does come in (and IMO it should), will that not be one more notch on JA's belt?

First DNA, then air sampling.

I think the science, and the good Doctor's background, were very clearly presented by JA during direct examination. Dr. Vass's experience and methods were (during that part of the hearing) very clearly laid out.

I would not want to be in HHJP's shoes right now though--deciding whether or not to allow this in. But as a lay person, Dr. Vass's testimony was enough to convince me today. It's time to let this type of science into trials.

RBBM, ynot. JB tried to prove that Dr Vass's testimony was partially motivated by his financial gain (for sales of his portable sniffer) if his data base is accepted in this Frye hearing. Jose was way off-base here because Dr Vass explained that he wasn't using the entire data base but only those chemicals that were already accepted by peer reviews. Nonetheless, Baez continued to hammer away with this ill constructed perspective.

I'm surprised that Jose didn't infer that the only reason JA was using Dr Vass and his "new" technique of air sampling was exactly as you stated, for "one more notch on JA's belt." It would be sooooo like his style.

Loved Dr Vass; his intellect, humor, patience, humility and even his manner of speech. I hope he sat back last night, patted himself on the back for his stellar testimony, had a little Bull's Blood and danced the czardas ~ But I'm half Hungarian myself, so my viewpoint is very biased. :great:

 

[strawberry]

Dr. Vass' testimony has got me thinking about the chloroform found in the bottle with the syringe where Caylee's body was found. He says that the amounts of chloroform detected in the air samples of the trunk were 10,000 times more than a decomposing body... which sounds like a HUGE amount of chloroform (I could be wrong about that).

With that said... what if Casey injected Caylee with the chloroform? When the body started to decompose could the chloroform that was in Caylee's system have caused these high levels of chloroform?
I just don't see how Casey could have spilled chloroform in the car without being overcome herself? So I am wondering that if Chloroform was in Caylee's system... could it have been released once she started to decompose? I really hope this makes some kind of sense?

I will go back and read up on the bottle found near Caylee's remains that tested positive for Chloroform, but could Casey have just slightly unscrewed the bottle enough to get what she needed out of it with the syringe, put the top back on, and then inject Caylee... then she would again quickly unscrew the top and shove the syringe inside and close it off again.

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps the high levels was due to a cumulative effect of a decomposing body that produces chloroform, and off gassing from her system. :sick:

 

[strawberry]

The Defense is saying LE, threw away, a whole pizza ya'll. And will likely throw in the fact that LE didn't take the whole dumpster to LE base camp with them. YM called Vass. YM sent the death smell to Vass. YM was there the night CA called 911.

It is all about the faux pizza that was never in the box. Period. There was no full pizza in that box. I am sure the police have the box. I doubt it showed creepy seepage on its underside from a decomposing full pizza...

KC was playing house with Tony at the time and stealing from AMy to buy beer and other food at Target so she could earn her keep at Tony's. And he had other guy friends...really, a full pizza was thrown away...what college age or growing guy do any of us know that would leave even one slice of a pizza (regardless if it had sat on the counter for 1-3 days) and let her throw it out...NO way...

The phantom pizza is as ridiculous as the phantom nanny. It does not exist.

The defense can make some points about the custody of the garbage bag...and the dumpster itself...but it is a phantom. It didn't cause the basketball sized stain in the trunk, the stains on the paper towels, the hideous smell...

It is bunk. It is just them picking apart something...that no one will buy...which is why they are so desperate to get all of KC's statements to LE thrown out...because they do not gell with the whole scheme of the defense.

Reasonable doubt...I give you, pizza. NOT.

Sorry. I typed a lot...spent too much time on the details. But this is all about the pizza and YM...and trying to place the blame anywhere else but KC...and her "diminished capacity." LOL. Try a grifter showing her true self whenever she is caught. Her true self is at the DT. Her fake self was a good time friend until she was crossed. Period.

Bolded and respectfully snipped by me. Oh yeah, that'll fly. A group of college boys would never throw away a whole pizza. Especially after partaking in weed.:crazy:

 

[strawberry]

Great summary! But you missed one itsy bitsy yet extremely important point--what STONED college kids are going to throw out any pizza, lol!

Haha I hadn't read your post when I said the same thing!!!:floorlaugh:

 

[eaglemom]

What I thought was great was Vass brought in:

- His reaction to the smell in the can of air when he opened it "Jumped back - smell of death" (and the skunk analogy was priceless)
- In all his years of examining chromatographs of compounds in bodies (22 years if I recall) and 4 or 500 bodies he had never seen such a high amount of chloroform
- the squirell they used to be thorough to see if that could cause the same reaction in the air (and really it didn't smell like human decomposition at all and so much fur- lol)
- the fact that they got another car to test the carpeting off-gassing
- the air sample from OCSO for a control sample

I mean the man really went at this in a VERY thorough way. I know WE knew that from the reports but he was able to get that into the record as well. I think he KNEW the proprietary database would be an issue and used the 30 chemicals from the peer reviewed papers solely for that reason.

His frustration with Baez was palpable at the end but he is really a very dynamic and engaging speaker. The forensic field is really VERY fortunate to have him and should utilize him for PR - lol!

I doubt HHJP will let it in - simply too new but I do think it is coming. It may have helped if other police departments had called Vass to consult on their cases - Melich is the very first! It appears to be very reliable and quite 'scientific' and I suspect it will be there quite soon and at some point it will impact someone's serious case - I mean it is detecting a DEAD body. DNA, fingerprints all of those could be tested on smaller crimes in court first and 'move up' so to speak.

MOO

 

[Lanie]

Oh, I loved Dr. Vass. I'm ready to get a PhD in whatever science field just so I can work with him and worship in his presence.

Anyway...

I thought Dr. Vass explained his findings very well. I got really confused with Baez and the way he kept hopping around. One of the things I noticed at the very beginning is how 'irate' JB seems to be about not getting his hands on the 400+ compound database. IMO, that was stuck firmly in his craw from the beginning, and set the mood for the entire interrogation that followed.

IMO, JB made a (poor) decision to approach this cross off the cuff with not much in the way of understanding the subject matter or preparing questions ahead of time to ask. I can picture JB skimming a few pages of material and believing that was enough to make him an expert on the subject, because, IMO, that's how he acted. Some of the statements he made and the questions he asked just seemed like he thought he knew more on this subject than Dr. Vass does.

 

[logicalgirl]

You have all "said it all" about Dr. Vass's testimony so I will only add - I thought he was brilliant - was able to dumb down the scientific stuff so that even I could understand clearly what he was saying but unfortunately for Baez it was......................:whoosh:.........still way over his head.

I'm going to say I do believe HHJP will allow Dr. Vass's work. I just listened to Bill Schaeffer's latest video posted in Today's News and he was blown away by Dr. Vass. He says Dr. Vass provides the information that ties together all the circumstantial evidence the SA has in this case and it is immensely damning.

I'm going with that thought.

 

[Georgia PI]

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http://www.ornl.gov/adm/partnerships/factsheets/10-G00653_ID2305.pdf

http://www.ornl.gov/adm/partnerships/events/presentations/spark_labrador.pdf

 

[strawberry]

I loved how fascinated he was about all the fur the poor squirrel sloughed off. And JA made sure to point out these animals are roadkill! Vass goes yeah I don't get very far when I'm the car by myself. LOL

ETA: Hinky has a list of places that do similar research. Shout out to Penn State! WHere was that program when I was trying to decide on a major 25 years ago??

 

[logicalgirl]

I loved how fascinated he was about all the fur the poor squirrel sloughed off. And JA made sure to point out these animals are roadkill! Vass goes yeah I don't get very far when I'm the car by myself. LOL

ETA: Hinky has a list of places that do similar research. Shout out to Penn State! WHere was that program when I was trying to decide on a major 25 years ago??

I loved the way Dr. Vass gave the squirrel information as exciting and amazing information he hadn't known before. There was no "haha on you" or " so stuff that in your left ear" at all in his delivery, which made it even better.

The last bit you mentioned Strawberry was hard for me to hear since I was cheering so loudly at my monitor....:blushing:

 

[OpenMind4U]

What I thought was great was Vass brought in:

- His reaction to the smell in the can of air when he opened it "Jumped back - smell of death" (and the skunk analogy was priceless)
- In all his years of examining chromatographs of compounds in bodies (22 years if I recall) and 4 or 500 bodies he had never seen such a high amount of chloroform
- the squirell they used to be thorough to see if that could cause the same reaction in the air (and really it didn't smell like human decomposition at all and so much fur- lol)
- the fact that they got another car to test the carpeting off-gassing
- the air sample from OCSO for a control sample

I mean the man really went at this in a VERY thorough way. I know WE knew that from the reports but he was able to get that into the record as well. I think he KNEW the proprietary database would be an issue and used the 30 chemicals from the peer reviewed papers solely for that reason.

His frustration with Baez was palpable at the end but he is really a very dynamic and engaging speaker. The forensic field is really VERY fortunate to have him and should utilize him for PR - lol!

I doubt HHJP will let it in - simply too new but I do think it is coming. It may have helped if other police departments had called Vass to consult on their cases - Melich is the very first! It appears to be very reliable and quite 'scientific' and I suspect it will be there quite soon and at some point it will impact someone's serious case - I mean it is detecting a DEAD body. DNA, fingerprints all of those could be tested on smaller crimes in court first and 'move up' so to speak.

MOO

Great summarization! Thank you!!! Only one thing I wouldn't agree: IMO, HHJP will let it in!!! Like Judge said, the RESULT of Vass findings belong to debate in court. The method, peer review participation (to proof that method is not 'novelty' among scintific community) - belong to Frye. IMO, Dr. Vass has demonstrated that his method has been published, peer reviwed and ADOPTED by many others so it's not pure 'novelty' therefore it should be in!!! Two items were addressed in this Frye hearing: the 'smell of decomposition' (the scintific approach to identify decomposition component using Vass method) has been 100% proofed to me. Regarding the chloroform - I'm not 100% sure....again, JMO

 

[Kimster]

Even if they don't let in this evidence, can't they let in the fact that the car smelled like human remains, in his opinion?

 

[OpenMind4U]

Even if they don't let in this evidence, can't they let in the fact that the car smelled like human remains, in his opinion?

IMO, absolutely!

 

[Melanie]

What I thought was great was Vass brought in:

- His reaction to the smell in the can of air when he opened it "Jumped back - smell of death" (and the skunk analogy was priceless) - In all his years of examining chromatographs of compounds in bodies (22 years if I recall) and 4 or 500 bodies he had never seen such a high amount of chloroform
- the squirell they used to be thorough to see if that could cause the same reaction in the air (and really it didn't smell like human decomposition at all and so much fur- lol)
- the fact that they got another car to test the carpeting off-gassing
- the air sample from OCSO for a control sample

I mean the man really went at this in a VERY thorough way. I know WE knew that from the reports but he was able to get that into the record as well. I think he KNEW the proprietary database would be an issue and used the 30 chemicals from the peer reviewed papers solely for that reason.

His frustration with Baez was palpable at the end but he is really a very dynamic and engaging speaker. The forensic field is really VERY fortunate to have him and should utilize him for PR - lol!

I doubt HHJP will let it in - simply too new but I do think it is coming. It may have helped if other police departments had called Vass to consult on their cases - Melich is the very first! It appears to be very reliable and quite 'scientific' and I suspect it will be there quite soon and at some point it will impact someone's serious case - I mean it is detecting a DEAD body. DNA, fingerprints all of those could be tested on smaller crimes in court first and 'move up' so to speak.

MOO

BBM:

Did you see the look on ICA's face when he mentioned jumping back 2 feet. If you didn't see it, give it a peek. You just want to reach through your tv.....

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/27310670/detail.html

Mel

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Here are a few articles from yesterday and the raw videos of Dr.V's testimony for anyone that missed this part of the hearing. I pray that what analyst Bill Sheaffer feels comes true. Bill Sheaffer said he expects that prosecutor Jeff Ashton, will convince Judge Perry to allow Vass's air tests to come into a trial. :crossfingers:

Courtroom Gets Heated In Day 2 Of Casey Hearing
Hearing continue Friday April 1. & Sat April 2. "Snip"
Read More Here: http://www.wftv.com/news/27304651/detail.html
Updated: 5:33 pm EDT March 24, 2011


Bombshells from the prosecution's scientist that even got Casey's attention.

Dr. Arpad Vass, told the prosecutor his reaction to opening the sealed container holding the carpeting.

"I jumped back 20 feet. It was very strong. To me it was the smell of human decomposition," said Dr. Vass.

Casey's eyes widened when he said that, and then she looked down.

Dr. Arpad Vass, found eight times more chloroform emanating from her trunk carpet and 10,000 times more chloroform in the air from her trunk than he's even seen with unventilated decomposition.

WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said he expects that prosecutor Jeff Ashton, will convince Judge Perry to allow Vass's air tests to come into a trial for the first time ever.Both sides will continue the battle over scientific evidence at another hearing on Friday April 1. They'll discuss "plant growth evidence," detectives collected along with Caylee's remains and a stain found in the trunk of Casey's car.

Judge Perry will also hear testimony about a heart sticker discovered near Caylee's remains

What was most memorable moment of day?
Central Florida News 13, In Session, WESH, WFTV, truTV
posted by halboedeker on March, 24 2011 4:44 PM


http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...-casey-anthony
"Snip"
Vinnie Politan of “In Session” called it “the biggest moment of the day” at the Casey Anthony hearing today.

Dr. Arpad Vass: “First I jumped back about two feet,” Vass said.

“It was, to me, the smell of human decomposition,”.

WFTV’s Kathi Belich called it “a bombshell that got even Casey’s attention.”

WESH -Channel 2’s Amanda Ober reports: “Vass said over his career he’s personally overseen studies on at least 50 decomposing bodies and is intimately familiar with the unique odor,” Ober reported.


Ober also highlighted Vass’ testimony that chloroform detected in the trunk carpet was 10,000 times greater than what would found in a controlled sample.

“As an attorney that had a powerful effect on me,” Sheaffer said. “That’s going to have even a greater effect on a juror when they hear that.”

[

B]Chloroform levels extremely high, expert says[/B]
"Snip"
Much More at Link: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,2758083.story
By Anthony Colarossi, Orlando Sentinel

3:52 p.m. EDT, March 24, 2011


Arpad Vass, senior research scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory is testifying about his extensive research in buried body decomposition as well as surface decomposition.

Anthony's team is trying to stop air-sample evidence used in her murder trial.

Vass said Detective Melich contacted him about this case.

"He had some odor issues in the trunk of the car," he said.

Vass said in hundreds of such samples he'd collected through the years he'd never seen chloroform levels that high. His reaction, he said, was "surprise."

Vass says the amount of chloroform found in the air sample from the car was too high to be just from decomposition of a human body. "I don't think so," he said when asked by Assistant State Attorney Jeff Ashton. "It's much greater than that."

He estimated the levels found to be 10,000 times greater than normal human decomposition levels.

RAW VIDEO: AIR SAMPLE EXPERT:
Dr. Arpad Vass, a research scientist and expert in decomposition odor analysis, testified at a hearing in the murder case of Casey Anthony.

Pt.1 http://www.wftv.com/video/27310819/index.html
Pt.2 http://www.wftv.com/video/27310830/index.html
Pt.3 http://www.wftv.com/video/27311907/index.html
Pt.4 http://www.wftv.com/video/27312482/index.html
Pt.5 http://www.wftv.com/video/27313126/index.html
Pt.6 http://www.wftv.com/video/27313356/index.html
Pt.7 http://www.wftv.com/video/27313799/index.html

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Great summarization! Thank you!!! Only one thing I wouldn't agree: IMO, HHJP will let it in!!! Like Judge said, the RESULT of Vass findings belong to debate in court. The method, peer review participation (to proof that method is not 'novelty' among scintific community) - belong to Frye. IMO, Dr. Vass has demonstrated that his method has been published, peer reviwed and ADOPTED by many others so it's not pure 'novelty' therefore it should be in!!! Two items were addressed in this Frye hearing: the 'smell of decomposition' (the scintific approach to identify decomposition component using Vass method) has been 100% proofed to me. Regarding the chloroform - I'm not 100% sure....again, JMO

I will be shocked if the judge does not let this in. IMO, this is valid scientific....stuff (ok that's my extent of science words). Just because it hasn't been used before, there is a first time for everything to become standard.

ETA: I just read RH's blog entry re Dr. Vass....and I see where this could actually be an uphill battle.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

 

[pip]

The most important reason the SA needs Dr. Vass allowed in is for his Chloroform testimony, as it is extremely, abnormally high and can be associated with the search for Chloroform on the computer, thus premeditation. I believe they will be admitting that KC put her in the trunk after an accident, so decomp in the trunk will be a moot point.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

BBM:

Did you see the look on ICA's face when he mentioned jumping back 2 feet. If you didn't see it, give it a peek. You just want to reach through your tv.....

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/27310670/detail.html

Mel

THANK YOU. I did miss that yesterday. Priceless. And sooooo KC.