2011.06.18 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-Two)

[mitzi]

Okay, so I left to go out of town Friday afternoon and had to read all of what was going on Friday and Saturday. Thanks to all who posted! I just watched the cross of the Bug Dude and Spitzer, I must say I am now in the category of loving JA! Couldn't quite see the appeal before, but his masterful annihilation of these two witness has made me a BIG fan!:blushing:

He really is the best, isn't he...and so is LDB. They work so well together. Linda is so methodical and calmly catches her prey in the trap, and Jeff is just so passionate, intelligent, and darn cute too! I'll be glad when this trial is finally over, but I sure will miss my daily serving of eye candy (aka JA) and also miss watching him and LDB put the slam-down on KC and her miserable DT.

 

[Leila]

According to Dr. G., the duct tape shows evidence of peri-mortem application. That is minutes before she died and decomposition began. And apparently decomp begins within ten minutes of death.

I feel certain the prosecution will bring this into evidence during the rebuttal part of the trial, when they are able to present additional evidence and witnesses to rebut the defence's evidence.

Kind of like kids who saved their best candy for the last.:great:

I think it's very likely that the state will put Dr. G back on the witness stand during their rebuttal to refute some of the statements made by Dr. Spitz.

 

[kant]

Originally posted by OldSoul2
I have a theory that really enlighten me when Dr. Spitz took the stand. I haven't read through this thread so I will apologize in advance if someone has already posted this. He testified that the tape had to have been put on after decomposition had already occurred because the tape would have stuck to the skin which would have decomposed and would not be present when he received the skull. In fact the tape was still present stuck to the actual skull. It then hit me. He was absolutely correct and it now makes sense. My theory about what happened from day one was that she wanted to make this look like a kidnapping or missing child case and hoped it would fall through the cracks, if they found the body, it would have been possible that the "kidnapper" had killed the child and disposed of her...hence the zanny story etc...so when Caylee was given too much chloroform and died, she must have panicked and didn't know where to put her, in the backyard at first, than in the trunk, then figuring out what she is going to do all the while the body is decomposing. She finally decided to put the duct tape before she actually put her in the final destination so that it was made to look like someone actually killed her. So, Caylee didn't die of asphyxiation and that is true, she died from overdose and the tape was the cover. Baez thought he had a homerun and mason made him repeat this several times but this makes it more obvious as to what really happened IMO. This means premeditation.

I had to respond to this post bc it spoke to me.

So now I guess I need to dig around and get the details of the possibility of exact postmortem tape (vs other) attachment.... and omg... it pains me to type that.

.

 

[camcneishg]

way back when...does anyone remember how long the DT told HJBP that they would need for the case? I can't remember....

 

[camcneishg]

I hope we don't have to listen to the bug doc ALL DAY tomorrow....

 

[Etilema]

I had to respond to this post bc it spoke to me.

So now I guess I need to dig around and get the details of the possibility of exact postmortem tape (vs other) attachment.... and omg... it pains me to type that.

.

As was mentioned by another poster, the tape wasn't actually stuck to the skull when it was found. It was stuck to the hair mat that was with the skull, such that it was roughly in the position it must have been in when there was still skin--covering the mouth/nose area. But since the skin was decomposed, there was nothing for the tape to stick to; even Dr. Spitz, who claims the tape was stuck onto the BONE after decomp acknowledges that the tape was not sticking to the skull when it was found. Hope that helps.

 

[Leila]

Every time I've pondered the logic of an accidental death, I keep running into the same obstacle of multiple layers of duct tape wrapped around this baby's face.

I can't get one inch past that.

I can't see an accidental death for a number of reasons. The duct tape is one reason. But one of the major obstacles to Caylee's death being accidental is the fact that KC was out on the town partying and participating in a hot body contest 4 days later. Within hours of Caylee's death, she was renting movies and enjoying an evening with her boyfriend.

IF it had been an accident, it would be presumed that it would have been a shock and KC would have been too grief stricken to do anything other than to mourn her child.

Caylee's death had to have been intentional for the very reason that KC was not at all bothered by the fact that Caylee had died.

 

[Quiche]

I hope we don't have to listen to the bug doc ALL DAY tomorrow....

Won't it be Dr. Rodriguez, the ex body farm guy? Oh, is he bugs too?

eta: Eh, I'm getting fuzzy! See you all tomorrow... and Kant, it's great to see you posting!

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I think for the testimony this week I will wrap my TV and monitor in bubble wrap. LOL

 

[Anadarko]

Unreal... while JA was trying to tell WS that he could look into the skull from the opening in the bottom, instead of cutting it open, KC thought this was pretty funny... :loser:

 

[Oakley]

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2011/06/frye-in-the-trunk-of-a-car-anthony-case.html

<from article:>

That being said, the possibility of Judge Perry&#8217;s ruling on the decomposition odor analysis being reversed on appeal (if indeed an appeal is taken if Casey Anthony is convicted) is slim. Judges have broad discretion in this area.

 

[mobius99]

hi Oldsoul2, my understanding is the tape was stuck to Caylee's hair at the point she was found... which previously was also stuck to the skin (now decomposed). It wasn't stuck to the skull, it was just laying across it as the skin was now gone :maddening:

I come to agree with premeditation now moreso then ever. If she wanted to make it look like there was a kidnapping she would have placed the body further away and then reported it. (she had a car and amy's money for gas) I don't for a minute believe she would have the stomach to touch Caylee physically after she murdererd her. The last time she saw her was while placing her in the bags. And I say that by her 1st reactions at trial of her decomposed body.

Athough I didn't put much thought in it previously as others posted she may have wanted to do the A's in... I've also come to now believe that given the opportunity and good reason (life insurance) she would done them in too.

BBM
Very interesting article...see section under The Murders where it references the locations used by mothers and fathers when they kill their children.
[ame="http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS313&q=statistics+on+mothers+who+kill+their+children&aq=0&aqi=g3g-j1&aql=&oq=statistics+on+mothers+who+"]statistics on mothers who kill their children - Google Search[/ame]

 

[logicalgirl]

Thanks, Logicalgirl. I was able to watch some of Dr. Spitz on HLN at the airport on Saturday while waiting for my flight. But just when the going gets good, HLN cuts for a break......I'm glad to be home. lol

Lordie, don't watch HLN - you'll get a very milked down version - check out wftv videos - both Spitz and Huntington cannot be missed by someone who has followed this case as much as you have!!!

 

[Leila]

way back when...does anyone remember how long the DT told HJBP that they would need for the case? I can't remember....

It seems to me that the DT said something in the neighborhood of 3 - 4 weeks. IIRC..........I think the state said 3 - 4 weeks, and the DT followed with something like "about the same amount of time." I think that's where originally it was 6 - 8 weeks.

But the defense's opening statement changed the plan. The state immediately followed the defense opening statement with putting George on the stand, which I'm sure they didn't originally intend to do. Then they went to putting witnesses on the stand in chronological order, but didn't call a lot of witnesses on their witness list.

 

[kant]

bbm
very interesting article...see section under the murders where it references the locations used by mothers and fathers when they kill their children.
statistics on mothers who kill their children - google search

bbm

yes.... This

 

[spqr]

That's why I was leaning toward the tape as an after-thought bc I can see Casey thinking that that makes it look more kidnap-esque... in her mind...
IDK *sigh*

Respectfully snipped and BBM

I understand your thought process, but ponder this please...if it was meant to look like a "kidnap-esque" scenario, ONE piece of tape would have been sufficient and a more likely occurance. Kidnappers, from my experience usually have a "reason" for the kidnapping, i.e. money, flee the country, etc...

The restraints/tape is meant to be a temporary situation in the process of facilitating the demand(s) are met. A dead hostage, is a loss of leverage and negotiation. As well as a much more significant criminal charge (if caught) dead hostage vs live hostage. Kidnapping vs murder.

If KC wanted to go with that scenario (even if caylee died by accident) ONE piece of duct tape would have achieved the same effect. JMO

 

[QuietStorm]

:seeya: Hi Lambchop. IIRC, Dr. G could not list the cause of death...only the manner of death. I believe she listed it as Homicide by Undetermined Means.

ETA: Here is the link to the autopsy report. The report is graphic so you may not want to read it all but the summary is on page 1.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf

Highlights from the report
-Shirt is a size 3T; shorts are a size 24-mo
-One black plastic bag was cinched and tied; the other black plastic bag was open
-The skull was not devoid of hair like the skull presented by Dr. S
-The duct tape was stuck to the hair; not the skull
-Material consistent with pull-ups or a diaper was found mixed with debris and roots at the recovery site
-Missing bones included the hyoid, which is the bone that usually breaks when a person is strangled
-the trunk of the body was dragged by animals from the rest of the body while it was still articulated (not yet skeletonized)
-due to weather reports, seasonal leafing, slight erosion of bones, and minimal adipocere, it was estimated that the body had been in the woods consistent with 6 months

A piece a material was also recovered. It measured 15" x 6.5". I don't know if was ever identified as to what it was.

 

[Harmony 2]

Last call... side bar will be closing in 5 minutes...