2012.05.17 Doc Dump Thread

[jjenny]

There is no witness that says she/he saw "them running."
There are however witnesses that describe the man on the bottom getting beat up.
So the idea that they somehow just fallen down is not supported by evidence as far as I can tell.

 

[Florida Native]

GZ was in his car. How did he get from his car to where TM was? GZ lived on the other side of the community. Those condos are not his property. He was not on "public property". He had no authority to follow anyone whether it's legal or not. No one gave him the authority to follow someone within the community within the common areas. No one. His only responsibility involved calling it in. He had no business following a visitor who was staying in a condo within the community. He called LE.....he was done. jmo

BBM. That still doesn't prove that he continued to follow. That is my point. I would like to see proof that he continued to follow before I convict him.

 

[vlpate]

I guess you've never been sucker punched. I have. It gives your attacker the advantage. (Not that mine needed one as a 10-year could take me down.) I was unable to get my bearings, defend myself or break free after the first punch. My SIL had the same thing happen to him, sucker punched in a bar. Unlike me, he is a large person and packs a powerful punch but he went down hard, breaking his ankle, game over.

If GZ had started the fight, i.e., thrown the first punch, then TM would have had some mark on him. And, FTR, if GZ had his "azz handed to him" then you are making the defense's case. GZ was physically attacked by TM and in fear for his life: self defense.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

BEM: good point
GZ was the one on the ground yelling for help. All the condescension and rebuttal in the world won't change that fact. The only thing to deduce from the fact that he was the one on the ground, is he was punched to the ground and his keys and phone were knocked out of his hands. TM didn't have any signs of being attacked. TM started it-maybe he wanted to get GZ's keys and take his car. Who knows. It just makes no sense that he'd jump him for no reason.

JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

While it would be most insensitive for a white kid to put on a sheet and walk through a black neighborhood under any circumstances, considering the history of the KKK, I see no comparison in that and Trayvon Martin walking through George Zimmerman's neighborhood.
IMO the costume which Trayvon Martin was wearing and the costume which seems to so have offended Mr. Zimmerman is the costume with which Mr. Martin was born----his black skin. IMO it cost TM his life.

That is strange accusation since GZ has Black ancestry himself and one of his first defenders was his close friend whose skin was the same hue as tM. Isn't it possible that since the demographic of the majority of criminals terrorizing this neighborhood was Black male teenagers...that GZhad a perfectly normal reaction to a strange teenager of THAT description walking in the rain? It was statisically
RATIONAL. In order to brand GZ a racist, one must deny his own mixed heritage, his very real friendships and the common sense reason for being suspicious of TM that night.


Some want us to ignore common sense and crime statistics in that neighborhood in order to deem this man a racist.

That is unfair. GZ had every reason to be WATCHFUL. For those who complain...do you want to dissolve every neighborhood watch then...or so hamper the simple aspect of observing someone because...someone else is annoyed by it? Then be prepared to be over run by crime. It has become useful unfortunately to expect people to deny very rational fears. It has become fashionable for us to teach our children to be aggressively aggreived. This is a poor idea.

Stopping crime trumps this "sensitivity." We need to teach pur children that. And we need to teach them respect and their own obligation to the community. Two schools amd three suspensions in the new school says to me that TM was having realroblems with authority and respect for others. Why do we teach our children now to feel this "entitlement"... that they can Talk,look, and do anything and they have their RIGHTS. They can e mbrace the GANSTA look and language And yet everyone should so ehow KNOW they are just faking.

GZ had a right to live in acrime free neighborhood. That trumps this silliness that he should not have offended TM's feelings by watching him.

 

[vlpate]

BBM. That still doesn't prove that he continued to follow. That is my point. I would like to see proof that he continued to follow before I convict him.

There's no proof that he "continued to follow", even the Investigator said they have no proof. None.

 

[Isabelle]

BBM. That still doesn't prove that he continued to follow. That is my point. I would like to see proof that he continued to follow before I convict him.

Somehow, both TM and GZ were in the same location when the gunshot was fired.

 

[rossva]

BBM Not sure what you mean by that comment. Are you profiling who ever put it there as a racist?

FANTASTIC CATCH!

It all makes sense now.

I could not figure out why that can was put on top of the body and now we know why they did not get it right in the report.

No doubt it was placed there because of the watermelon. IMO

 

[LambChop]

He was entitled to go anywhere he pleased on the property, as was Trayvon. He was allowed to watch whomever he felt like watching, as could Trayvon. What is unlawful is to attack someone because of either of those two things. Unlawful and dangerous. There's no doubt who attacked whom, and if there is, I don't know anymore what to say to that.

The common areas are either owned by HOA or the developer who has to carry insurance. The HOA flyer that is in evidence makes it very clear that GZ understood what he was supposed to do in the event he saw someone suspicious. He was to call it in only. GZ CAN watch whoever he likes but getting out of the car was against the agreement he had with LE and the HOA. He took the law into his own hands, never told LE he had a gun (which would have made a world of difference in what the dispatcher told him about staying with his car), he pursued TM when he knew he shouldn't, agreed not to by saying okay but went ahead and did it anyway.

The dangerous part was following and not letting LE do their job. The very dangerous part was having the gun on him and making a decision to go against what he knew he was suppose to do but ignore it and follow anyway. That is not someone who is using their brain. It's not smart to put the lives of other's at risk when you know you have a gun and also know what could happen if there were a confrontation. I do not believe most gun owners would have made that decision to go after someone they weren't even sure was involved in a crime. Just thinking someone is suspicious is not enough proof to endanger the lives of the innocent people who lived in those surrounding condos. jmo

 

[rossva]

IIRC, by the 7-11 video, the can of "tea" was put in a bag. What happened to the 7-11 bag?

So in the process of CPR, the can came out of Trayvon's pocket?

I wonder how it managed to stay in his pocket during this life or death scuffle....doesn't make sense to me.

JMO

 

[vlpate]

What was up with the bully? What kind of witness is he supposed to be? Character? The guy started out by saying no one liked him, wonder why?

Mark will trump that one with 50 more who will say the exact opposite. Even the investigator sounded like he was perplexed by his rambling.

 

[jjenny]

IIRC, by the 7-11 video, the can of "tea" was put in a bag. What happened to the 7-11 bag?

He could have thrown it away and decided to carry tea in his pocket instead.

 

[vlpate]

IIRC, by the 7-11 video, the can of "tea" was put in a bag. What happened to the 7-11 bag?

GREAT question. I am convinced TM ran home and took something into the house. Of course he could have thrown the bag away, but why get one in the first place? He put his tea in the front of his sweatshirt and the skittles in his pocket. Maybe it's as simple as he needed his hands free to text.

Sadly, we will never know if he took something into the house....unless Tracy ticks BG off by not sharing the( potential), wealth at some point (civil suit). JMO

 

[gxm]

GZ goal, as he indicated in his 911 was to detain. To keep TM from getting away. Why else call LE???? I do not think it was ever GZ's intention to get into a fight but it was his intention to keep TM from getting away and the minute TM started to move away, I believe GZ reacted by grabbing TM. That would account for GZ's injuries and TM's lack of them. It's possible they were not fighting but merely they fell and TM was trying to get away and GZ got hurt in the process. I think TM was shot because GZ had had enough and shot him. I think it was that simple. That would explain the witness saying she saw them running. jmo

The autopsy shows the GZ never hit or punched TM. IOW, never threw/landed one punch. IMO, that makes GZ's story more plausible than a scenario where GZ was just trying to hold onto TM while TM pounded him.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

 

[vlpate]

So in the process of CPR, the can came out of Trayvon's pocket?

I wonder how it managed to stay in his pocket during this life or death scuffle....doesn't make sense to me.

JMO

They felt it in his pocket, it's in the report.

It didn't come out because the only one struggling was GZ.

 

[mikeysmommom]

How have you proved he caused the confrontation?

Nobody has seemed to answer this question.

Nobody will be able to answer that because they can not IMO.

 

[gxm]

GREAT question. I am convinced TM ran home and took something into the house. Of course he could have thrown the bag away, but why get one in the first place? He put his tea in the front of his sweatshirt and the skittles in his pocket. Maybe it's as simple as he needed his hands free to text.

Sadly, we will never know if he took something into the house....unless Tracy ticks BG off by not sharing the( potential), wealth at some point (civil suit). JMO

Interesting speculation! That would account for the wasted minutes we've all been wondering about.

 

[vlpate]

The autopsy shows the GZ never hit or punched TM. IOW, never threw/landed one punch. IMO, that makes GZ's story more plausible than a scenario where GZ was just trying to hold onto TM while TM pounded him.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

Not to mention, he'd already "gotten away" once, and missed another chance while GZ was on the ground yelling for help. You don't yell for help when you are detaining someone, imagine it, lmao.

 

[mikeysmommom]

He could have thrown it away and decided to carry tea in his pocket instead.

He could have but if IIRC he seemed to ask for the bag so why not use it.

 

[suzihawk]

You said it Sister No had the guts to help him when he needed it.

IMO She should have been run down charging that abused child who hurt his sibling who might be alive today if his own dirt bag of a mother took him to the hospital instead of letting him sit and die.The mother should spend her life in jail not a child that was insanity IIRC he is 10 yrs old and abused all his life.He hurt his sibling because violence was what he was taught from dear old mom.Seeking justice is one thing but she IMO is insane and I have no idea why the people in FL would want even vote for her after that.Oh wait she was voted in after appeasing the mob,IMO that is why she overcharged a man who should never have been in charge to begin with.Well those who love her won't when and if she does it to a loved one of theirs.Wonder how the voters will react if the right thing is done and the Judge follows the law and dismisses charges and OMG the money FL will owe GZ will be a very mighty sum IMO. I only hope he can legally sue Mr.Crump for his lies to the media.

Just a respectful suggestion...

maybe someone could make a politcal thread where these types of things could be discussed so as to not derail the Doc Dump Thread.

 

[LambChop]

Just curious, as I do not live in a community like that one, but are the sidewalks not considered public property? And the streets, as well?

GZ's awareness of TM began when he was near the clubhouse. While that is not property that I would presume is open to the public at large, it is surely property of the neighborhood association, to which GZ belongs.

And must one be granted 'authority' by an outside agency to follow another person? Or to walk along a sidewalk behind another person? Or to watch another person who is in public?

If GZ was on 'private property' that he did not own... so was TM.

I guess I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

They are called common areas and the property is owned by the developer or the HOA. It is not public property. It is property within the gated community and is maintained as private property. GZ had a right to walk within the common areas as did TM. TM was walking home, GZ was not. GZ was following TM when the newletter in evidence clearly states that neighbors are to report behavior to LE but not to get involved. He clearly knew better but did it anyway. Essentially he was breaking HOA rules by following TM when he had no authority to do so.

I can also see, because of insurance reasons, there being rules about carrying guns in the common areas of these communities by the HOA. You can carry from your home to your car and off the property but no more strapping your gun on when you are walking around the common areas. It's private property they can do this claiming for the protection of all residents you can't bringing them within the common areas. jmo