23 March 2010: Friend reports Josh says mine shaft best for hiding body

[PickieChickie]

Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.

I have heard the Charlie Powell quote "Mommy stayed in the woods" but don't remember reading it in a newspaper article with a source for the quote.

Do you know where this comment came from?

 

[grayjay]

I have heard the Charlie Powell quote "Mommy stayed in the woods" but don't remember reading it in a newspaper article with a source for the quote.

Do you know where this comment came from?

Hmmm. That's funny, Chickie, but when searching I find mentions of it by you. It took longer to track this one down...
<snipped>

That honestly sounds plausible, IMHO. He was seen returning at 8:30. That may have been when he told his boy 'mommy is going to stay in the woods for a while.'
....
PS..To anyone who wonders, this statement of mommy staying in the woods is not necessarily 'truth' but could just be 'rumor.' It was posted on one of the news sites in the blog. The person said something about knowing someone in LE and they revealed a couple of things that were being discussed behind the scenes and this was one of the items. It was alleged to have been said by the child when LE talked to the child while the dad was being questioned also.

 

[hollyblue]

Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.

LOL! I think we all did that. I took my pillow and parents wished me luck and said good-bye.. Pop gave me an apple incase I got hungry!!! LOL

 

[Bartleby]

He allegedly went to Air Gas in Salt Lake City early Monday morning. I think they open at 7:00 AM on Monday mornings. Someone should call and find out. It was discussed in the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths.

That would be a key siting if it could be confirmed, because wherever Josh went between 12:30am and 7am, and then 7am and 5pm, is obviously a great deal less far than if he had from 12:30am to 5pm. It would also suggest a direction he drove, since he'd be unlikely to use a SLC gas station to fill up if he was driving directly west from WVC.

Can you give a link to the story of that siting?

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.

With good tires and front wheel drive, that van could make it a lot of places, especially if he had chains.

Chains can at times get a CAR where a truck with 4-wheel drive and NO chains can go.

The only thing preventing the van from going particular places would be the low clearance, bushes, trees, rocks, gates, etc.

The ground was FROZEN so there wasn't mud anywhere.

I've not heard chains mentioned before.

Is it being suggested that either Josh previously owned a set of chains for the van, or bought a set of chains on 6-7th December? Have any neighbours confirmed that Josh owned a set of chains for the van? Has any store representative come forward to say they sold a set of chains to Josh? Were chains found in or on his van when it was searched?

He would quite likely show them off and brag about them, unless he bought them specifically with a nefarious porpose in mind. I've looked briefly at chains, and they seem an unnecessary fuss unless you plan to be driving on unplowed roads or offroad. A lot of people here still have snowtires on, which also give better traction on shallow snow covered roads, but also tear up the road surface slightly if there is no snow, and increase gas consumption.

For a man who won't let his wife feed the kids to be spending money on snowchains would be yet another abuse of the family budget, but of course quite within Josh's powers from what we know of his character.

 

[PickieChickie]

That would be a key siting if it could be confirmed, because wherever Josh went between 12:30am and 7am, and then 7am and 5pm, is obviously a great deal less far than if he had from 12:30am to 5pm. It would also suggest a direction he drove, since he'd be unlikely to use a SLC gas station to fill up if he was driving directly west from WVC.

Can you give a link to the story of that siting?

All I can do is direct you to the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths. The cutting torch purchase was NOT reported in a newspaper article. But, someone claimed that the purchase was reported to law enforcement along with a receipt by Air Gas. It was also said the purchase was made EARLY Monday morning. I have every reason to believe this is true, although I've not seen a copy of the receipt.

I've not heard chains mentioned before.

Is it being suggested that either Josh previously owned a set of chains for the van, or bought a set of chains on 6-7th December? Have any neighbours confirmed that Josh owned a set of chains for the van? Has any store representative come forward to say they sold a set of chains to Josh? Were chains found in or on his van when it was searched?

He would quite likely show them off and brag about them, unless he bought them specifically with a nefarious porpose in mind. I've looked briefly at chains, and they seem an unnecessary fuss unless you plan to be driving on unplowed roads or offroad. A lot of people here still have snowtires on, which also give better traction on shallow snow covered roads, but also tear up the road surface slightly if there is no snow, and increase gas consumption.

For a man who won't let his wife feed the kids to be spending money on snowchains would be yet another abuse of the family budget, but of course quite within Josh's powers from what we know of his character.

I haven't heard a report that Josh owned or purchased a set of tire chains. I was just making a point that once a vehicle arrives at a certain place where travel is limited because of no traction, chains will get it places where it would otherwise not be able to go.

When Mr. Cox visited the Simpson Springs area, he based his conclusion about Susan not being "out there" on his belief Josh was driving the family van which only has front wheel drive and no 4-wheel drive.

A vehicle with front wheel drive has more pull and can get further than a vehicle with rear wheel drive because instead of the vehicle being pushed from the rear axle/wheels/tires, it is being pulled by the front axle/wheels/tires.

I simply brought up the fact that chains would have broadened the areas accessible to Josh Powell and I'm not implying he used them the entire trip.

It would seem to me that any person who lives in an area that gets a lot of snow would own a set of chains and carry them with them during the winter.

I would like to think Josh Powell owned a set!

Did the rental car have chains? That could explain Josh's red, windburned hands!

 

[Bartleby]

All I can do is direct you to the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths. The cutting torch purchase was NOT reported in a newspaper article. But, someone claimed that the purchase was reported to law enforcement along with a receipt by Air Gas. It was also said the purchase was made EARLY Monday morning. I have every reason to believe this is true, although I've not seen a copy of the receipt.



I haven't heard a report that Josh owned or purchased a set of tire chains. I was just making a point that once a vehicle arrives at a certain place where travel is limited because of no traction, chains will get it places where it would otherwise not be able to go.

When Mr. Cox visited the Simpson Springs area, he based his conclusion about Susan not being "out there" on his belief Josh was driving the family van which only has front wheel drive and no 4-wheel drive.

A vehicle with front wheel drive has more pull and can get further than a vehicle with rear wheel drive because instead of the vehicle being pushed from the rear axle/wheels/tires, it is being pulled by the front axle/wheels/tires.

I simply brought up the fact that chains would have broadened the areas accessible to Josh Powell and I'm not implying he used them the entire trip.

It would seem to me that any person who lives in an area that gets a lot of snow would own a set of chains and carry them with them during the winter.

I would like to think Josh Powell owned a set!

Did the rental car have chains? That could explain Josh's red, windburned hands!

Thanks for the clarification. What we could do with is one of Josh's neighbours to come forward to confirm whether or not Josh had chains for his van. I doubt everyone in WVC drives with chains everytime it snows, but maybe they all own a set of snowtires and fit them for the winter.

There are people still driving round here in snowtires, when there hasn't been one flake of snow drop on the city all winter.


I'll have to go back to the shrink wrap thread and read it through again. A purchase of anything, anywhere, by Josh on 7th December would be a vital piece of evidence, even Graham crackers, marshmallows and Hershey bars, but knowing how tight-lipped WVC LE are being, we probably won't get confirmation of this event (if it occurred) until it comes out in court.

Unfortunately we are being forced by WVC LE to theorise without all the facts.

 

[sunnydee]

I know a lot of people don't believe Josh had planned in advance to murder Susan and believe it was more of a last minute thing. (Doesn't seem to be the type - whatever that means) However, if Susan was able to plan ahead for a possible divorce and continue to live with him as if nothing was wrong, and she was trying to work on her marriage - why couldn't Josh have been doing the same thing? While she is contributing to her separate bank account, he is working out the bugs on his plan B if Susan tries to leave him? She kept notes in her secret book at work, and he planned how to get rid of a body without leaving evidence. Maybe neither of them really planned on a day, or even thought their first plan would be that they wouldn't need their plan B, but both privately worked on their own plan B.

How many times could he have taken the family on an outing that Susan thought was very nice, when he was taking her to consider his future options and imaging what he would do to her in the future?

I am thinking Susan was taken to a place they have been together before, and it was something he had considered doing in the past and not as a last second thought after he accidentally killed her. I bet Josh has a family photo of the place where he later left Susan.

 

[sunnydee]

I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

If you accidentally killed someone, (can't say that I know for sure since I've never been in that situation myself) I think the first thing you think of is to get rid of the body - and clean up evidence later. Maybe he was afraid that the stain on the carpet would set? I don't know.

He was planning enough that he felt he could clean up the carpet, have it dry out while he was away and then he could take care of the little details (like the purse, keys, cellphone whatever), empty out the steam cleaner and put it away.

The guy was comfortable enough to leave his wife around while he cleaned the carpets.

I think he had a very well thought out plan by the time he left, and knew exactly what he was going to do. He just didn't count on his family calling the police before he could return and take care of the other things.

 

[Bartleby]

I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

If you accidentally killed someone, (can't say that I know for sure since I've never been in that situation myself) I think the first thing you think of is to get rid of the body - and clean up evidence later. Maybe he was afraid that the stain on the carpet would set? I don't know.

He was planning enough that he felt he could clean up the carpet, have it dry out while he was away and then he could take care of the little details (like the purse, keys, cellphone whatever), empty out the steam cleaner and put it away.

The guy was comfortable enough to leave his wife around while he cleaned the carpets.

I think he had a very well thought out plan by the time he left, and knew exactly what he was going to do. He just didn't count on his family calling the police before he could return and take care of the other things.

You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

 

[gwenabob]

You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

I thought early in the investigation it was determined that the Powells owned their own carpet cleaner and that the carpet cleaner had been taken during the police search of the home.

 

[PickieChickie]

I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

Josh and Susan had owned the carpet cleaner for a long time. He didn't go out and rent it. (This was told to me by someone who has known the Powells for a number of years and who was in their home on a regular basis.)

 

[PickieChickie]

You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

The Powells owned a carpet cleaner and it has been suggested that it was used to clean up whatever was spilled on the carpet, that the wet spot was from cleaning up whatever got on the carpet to make using it necessary.

 

[sunnydee]

You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

Leaving two fans blowing over night on the area led me to think the area was significant.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Leaving two fans blowing over night on the area led me to think the area was significant.

LE taking half the carpet in the living room points to that too. There is no doubt in my mind it was blood.

 

[sunnydee]

I know the temperature was cold (as it is now - we live in the same area as the Powells' did). We just had our carpets clean (entire house) and it was mostly dried within a couple of hours. Ours were cleaned about 5 pm, and were dried before we went to bed. We did not have fans blowing on the carpet. If Josh cleaned the carpet (however big the spot was) before leaving at midnight or so, and left two fans blowing on it over night; the police entered the house about 9 am (or a little later) and still described it as a "wet spot". It was not described as "fans blowing over a recently cleaned area of the carpet" but fans blowing on a wet spot.

Either Josh tried very, very hard to get something out of the carpet and went over it again and again - or maybe he doesn't know how to use his equipment very well, or I suppose it is possible that he just owns a really poor functioning steam cleaner that left the carpet still wet 9 or more hours after having fans blowing on it.

 

[pip]

LE taking half the carpet in the living room points to that too. There is no doubt in my mind it was blood.

I wonder if he could have cleaned it well enough that they could find no blood? I would think that would be very hard to accomplish. If they found blood, I would think he'd be arrested by now. It would be pretty damning evidence, given the rest of the circumstances. Maybe there was no blood. A urine clean up maybe? Maybe the kids were in bed and he strangled her on the livingroom floor. She likely would have released her bladder.

 

[sunnydee]

&#8220;Cox said the presence of the wet spot initially gave him hope the family may have simply rushed to the hospital after an accident.&#8221;

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705351425/Wet-spot-found-in-Powells-home.html


_______________________________
Seems odd to me that the presence of a wet spot would make you hopeful that an accident occurred and the family just rushed to the hospital. (Sounds as if he didn't expect the wet spot was likely from a spilled drink and he thought going to the hospital was less serious than what he was imagining otherwise)

I think the families (both sides) had their reasons to be concern for Susan before this day.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I wonder if he could have cleaned it well enough that they could find no blood? I would think that would be very hard to accomplish. If they found blood, I would think he'd be arrested by now. It would be pretty damning evidence, given the rest of the circumstances. Maybe there was no blood. A urine clean up maybe? Maybe the kids were in bed and he strangled her on the livingroom floor. She likely would have released her bladder.

They try to determine how much blood it would take to make the stain they found. That would be a good reason to take as much carpet as they could, they could use the other pieces of carpet and pad to determine that. Even if they found enough blood to say yes she died here it still does not mean Josh did it.

 

[pip]

They try to determine how much blood it would take to make the stain they found. That would be a good reason to take as much carpet as they could, they could use the other pieces of carpet and pad to determine that. Even if they found enough blood to say yes she died here it still does not mean Josh did it.

It wouldn't prove that Josh did it, but with that, and all the other circumstances it would be enough to detain him I would hope. Like KC and the decomp in her trunk, and all other circumstantials. I think in finding a wet spot and a fan blowing there, if they found any amount of her blood in that area, and she is missing, it would be enough to suspect foul play and all arrows point to him. jmo.
Of course they would be taking their chances that circumstantial evidence would get a conviction, but I think a jury would put 2 and 2 together given the whole picture.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It wouldn't prove that Josh did it, but with that, and all the other circumstances it would be enough to detain him I would hope. Like KC and the decomp in her trunk, and all other circumstantials. I think in finding a wet spot and a fan blowing there, if they found any amount of her blood in that area, and she is missing, it would be enough to suspect foul play and all arrows point to him. jmo.
Of course they would be taking their chances that circumstantial evidence would get a conviction, but I think a jury would put 2 and 2 together given the whole picture.

Playing devils advocate here.

Josh and kids head out of town leaving wife at home alone. Someone she knows, say a neighbor next door comes over and sees a chance for a little romance. After all she has been consulting him on her marital problems and he was quick to point a finger at Josh when she went missing.

Not that I believe any of that but you can bet the defense would come up with a story like that and all they have to do is convince 1 jury member.