4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

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Also known as the 'spaghetti defense', let's throw everything against the wall and hope something sticks. Happens every, single time.

IMO

And it's always interesting to see how people's minds change about the case, when that becomes apparent.

People who have an alibi do not use the spaghetti defense. In cases where there are other suspects and evidence of that, also no spaghetti defense.

I'm guessing that the documents released by LE (through the DA) include all the leads followed by LE (the boyfriends, the Sigma Chi fraternity, the Food Truck guys, the DoorDash driver (who has started defending herself publicly and is cleared but people still hint online that it was her), and others I'm sure we don't know about)

I imagine LE also checked out people who followed victims on SM. Lots of work done - but one of those people (BK, who started following MM, I believe it was, about 3 weeks before the murders turned out to have a few other links to the crime - like his DNA being at the death scene of MM and KG)..got more focus. I believe we heard (I have no link, so IIRC, JMO) that BK had downloaded pictures of at least one victim to his phone as well. (Here's the link:
)

Bottom line is that the murders happened between 4 am and 4:25 am and there's video of a white Elantra-type car at the scene (along with a DoorDash at approximately 4:00 am-4:10 am). So obviously, DD driver had to be checked out. The noises on the neighbor's camera (less than 50 feet away from Xana's window) caught a thud, whimpering and a dog barking around 4:17, DD driver's records show her elsewhere at that time.

But the Defense would need to choose a lane (a possible other suspect) to make that the defense. IMO.

To be effective, the Defense needs to give up spaghetti, but it's very hard to do in many criminal cases (cf. Alec Murdaugh or Letecia Stauch trials).
 
I think the new attorney who was recently added to BK's defense team will try to get the description of the person DM describes thrown out, or at least put DM's description in doubt by the jury. The new attorney is an expert in eye witness testimony and had a famous case on America's Most Wanted overturned due to issues related to eye witness testimony.

I suspect the bushy eyebrows testimony and height and physique of the person DM described will be put into question by this new attorney, along with the experts who she puts on the stand regarding witness testimony.

The witness' state of mind and other conditions will be of interest to the experts who will testify about the credibility of witness testimony. DM is certainly a victim, but in a death penalty case, her testimony will come under intense scrutiny as the stakes are so high.
Thrown out on what grounds? Of course the Defense will attack the witness description, not identification, just to muddy the waters (which I think will backfire spectacularly), but I don't believe they'll have legal grounds to get it thrown out completely.

IMO
 
In John Grisham's novel and movie, The Rainmaker, the freshly minted lawyer Rudy Baylor says:

"They say murderers make 25 mistakes, and they're lucky if they remember five."

The Rainmaker Quotes, Movie quotes – Movie Quotes .com

It's anecdotal and a fictional source written by a former lawyer (JG), but leads to my point that BK, an alleged murderer x 4 (so 100 mistakes that he is lucky to remember 20 of ?), certainly made his share of mistakes.

Enough mistakes, which in their totality, were incriminating enough for him to be surveilled and considered a fugitive from justice, arrested, charged as the only suspect with 5 serious felonies including 4 counts of murder in the 1st Degree, extradited back to where the crimes were committed 2,000 miles away, and is now sat in jail for 6 months awaiting a PH.

I feel for his defense team, his defense must be an incredibly "tough row to hoe", but he's given that right under the law of the land, hope it all goes well for them, hard work indeed.

MOO
 
Is Def't Required to Notify Prosecutor of Affirmative Defenses PRE-TRIAL in ID?

snipped for focus @10ofRods
If ID requires def't to notify the state of all affirmative defenses pre-trial, and if req'mt is in Idaho Criminal RULE 16(c), below, I'm missing it.
Anyone?

But re ALIBI defense specifically, Idaho Criminal RULE 12.1. Notice of Alibi,** states in its entirety:
"If the defendant intends to rely on the defense of alibi, the defendant must comply with Idaho Code § 19-519."

Idaho STATUTE*** specifically requires def't to notify the state pre-trial, of ALIBI -
--- place(s) def't claims to have been when crime occurred;
--- name(s) & address(es) of witness(es) def't intends to rely on to estab. alibi.
Also requires st. to give reciprocal info re witness name(s) & address(es) re establishing def't's presence at scene, and sets deadlines for pre-trial notice; allows ct. to extend deadlines; yadda, yadda.

So except for alibi defense, I'm not seeing that ID. requires crim def't to notify prosecutor of other affirmative defenses pre-trial. ICBW.
Welcoming clarification or correction, esp'ly from our other legal professionals.

=================================================
* I.C.R. 16. Discovery and Inspection | Supreme Court
"Idaho Criminal Rule 16. Discovery and Inspection
"(c) Disclosure of Evidence by the Defendant on Written Request. Except as otherwise provided in this rule, the defendant must, at any time following the filing of charges against the defendant, on written request by the prosecuting attorney, disclose the following information, evidence and material to the prosecuting attorney:

"(1) Documents and Tangible Objects. On written request of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant must permit the prosecuting attorney to inspect and copy or photograph:
(A) books,
(B) papers,
(C) documents,
(D) photographs, and
(E) tangible objects,
or copies or portions of them, that are in the possession, custody or control of the defendant, and that the defendant intends to introduce in evidence at the trial.

"(2) Reports of Examinations and Tests. On written request of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant must permit the prosecuting attorney to inspect and copy or photograph any results or reports of physical or mental examinations and of scientific tests or experiments made in connection with the particular case if they are within the possession or control of the defendant, that the defendant intends to introduce in evidence at the trial, or that were prepared by a witness whom the defendant intends to call at the trial when the results or reports relate to testimony of the witness.

"(3) Defense Witness. On written request of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant must furnish the prosecuting attorney a list of names and addresses of witnesses the defendant intends to call at trial.

"(4) Expert Witnesses. On written request of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant must provide a written summary or report of any testimony that the defense intends to introduce pursuant to Rules 702, 703 or 705 of the Idaho Rules of Evidence at trial or hearing. The summary provided must describe the witness’s opinions, the facts and data for those opinions and the witness’s qualifications. Disclosure of expert opinions regarding mental health must also comply with the requirements of Idaho Code § 18-207. The defense is not required to produce any materials not subject to disclosure under subsection (h) of this Rule, or any material otherwise protected from disclosure by defendant’s constitutional rights."

** I.R.C. 12.1. Notice of Alibi. | Supreme Court
*** Section 19-519 – Idaho State Legislature

ETA: Sorry, somehow my post did not show the link to post by @10ofRods.
<Snipped & BBM> Are we saying the same thing? :)

TITLE 19
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 5
COMPLAINT AND WARRANT OF ARREST
19-519. NOTICE OF DEFENSE OF ALIBI. (1) At any time after arraignment before a magistrate upon a complaint and upon written demand of the prosecuting attorney, the defendant shall serve, within ten (10) days or at such different time as the court may direct, upon the prosecuting attorney, a written notice of his intention to offer a defense of alibi. Such notice by the defendant shall state the specific place or places at which the defendant claims to have been at the time of the alleged offense and the names and addresses of the witnesses upon whom he intends to rely to establish such alibi.
Section 19-519 – Idaho State Legislature
 
BBM

I just hope the prosecution has enough evidence for the judge to set this Case over for trial.

I don't think it matters where his phone pinged over the summer and into the fall except for where his phone pinged that specific night. Quite the coincidence that a car matching his car lines up with all those cell tower pings from that night from his phone.

But if he is innocent I'm sure his attorneys can account for his whereabouts that late night/early morning, like why he was driving to different towns in Idaho. Bar hopping?

Good. Then there will be camera evidence for his attorneys to present. BK just out socializing in different locations on Saturday night as per usual, nothing new. Plenty of social buddies to vouch for him.

Must just be a strange coincidence that his phone was deliberately turned off between 4:00 - 4:30 am that night. His lawyers can look for phone records that show he does this all the time at 4:00am, along with 4:00am "town hopping."

Really unlucky guy.
I have no doubt that they have enough to bind the case over to trial. After seeing the State's response to the Motion Discovery of 5/24, they've got a heck of a lot of evidence we don't even have a clue about yet. I feel good about it.

MOO
 
In John Grisham's novel and movie, The Rainmaker, the freshly minted lawyer Rudy Baylor says:

"They say murderers make 25 mistakes, and they're lucky if they remember five."

The Rainmaker Quotes, Movie quotes – Movie Quotes .com

It's anecdotal and a fictional source written by a former lawyer (JG), but leads to my point that BK, an alleged murderer x 4 (so 100 mistakes that he is lucky to remember 20 of ?), certainly made his share of mistakes.

Enough mistakes, which in their totality, were incriminating enough for him to be surveilled and considered a fugitive from justice, arrested, charged as the only suspect with 5 serious felonies including 4 counts of murder in the 1st Degree, extradited back to where the crimes were committed 2,000 miles away, and is now sat in jail for 6 months awaiting a PH.

I feel for his defense team, his defense must be an incredibly "tough row to hoe", but he's given that right under the law of the land, hope it all goes well for them, hard work indeed.

MOO

Good way to put it. That BK made enough mistakes to get himself arrested.

There is alot of hyper-focus on DM and how her description of the suspect doesn't impress alot of posters, etc....

DM's description already did what it needed to do, it helped get enough probable cause for an arrest without using the DNA. No small feat. According to the PCA the footprint by her door confirmed that she saw the strange man walking past her room and the DNA matches BK who matches all 4 points of her description of the intruder.

Not 1 or 2 points, but all 4 points. Sex, height, build, facial feature.

I watch murder cases where defendants get convicted without leaving evidence of themselves at crime scenes and here we have BK - through his mistakes - leaving 6 types of evidence of himself at his crime scene.

Car evidence
Phone evidence (places him in the crime area - in Moscow)
Witness description that can't exclude him
DNA evidence
DNA found on an item directly associated with the murder weapon and next to a victim
Bloody footprint (waiting to see if it matches BK and If BK bought Van shoes)
 
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I think the new attorney who was recently added to BK's defense team will try to get the description of the person DM describes thrown out, or at least put DM's description in doubt by the jury. The new attorney is an expert in eye witness testimony and had a famous case on America's Most Wanted overturned due to issues related to eye witness testimony.

I suspect the bushy eyebrows testimony and height and physique of the person DM described will be put into question by this new attorney, along with the experts who she puts on the stand regarding witness testimony.

The witness' state of mind and other conditions will be of interest to the experts who will testify about the credibility of witness testimony. DM is certainly a victim, but in a death penalty case, her testimony will come under intense scrutiny as the stakes are so high.

DM’s eye witness testimony helps bolster the timeline and her description of the suspect does not eliminate BK.

They are not relying on her to definitively identify BK nor do they need her to put BK in the house.

His DNA puts him in the house. Anything else is a bonus.
 
Do we know that for sure? Have we seen the interview dates or times for DM or BF? Were they interviewed more than once? If so, do we know when DM gave her description of what she remembered from the night?
It's in the PCA that when LE first pulled BK's liscense on Nov 29th, they noticed his photo roughly matched the generic description provided by DM in earlier statement. So before that. It's well known that normal police procedure is to interview victims of crime as close to the time of the crime as possible. MOO

EBM for spelling
 
They’ll pull out some statistics that says 45% of the male population in Moscow meets that description. JMO
Well, probably not quite that high a percentage, but in isolation of the context I wouldn't even call that a rationalisation. MOO

ETA: Which is beside the point anyway, as regardless of any stats, DM's description still doesn't exclude the defendant (which is the point).
ETA MOO
 
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And it's always interesting to see how people's minds change about the case, when that becomes apparent.

People who have an alibi do not use the spaghetti defense. In cases where there are other suspects and evidence of that, also no spaghetti defense.

I'm guessing that the documents released by LE (through the DA) include all the leads followed by LE (the boyfriends, the Sigma Chi fraternity, the Food Truck guys, the DoorDash driver (who has started defending herself publicly and is cleared but people still hint online that it was her), and others I'm sure we don't know about)

I imagine LE also checked out people who followed victims on SM. Lots of work done - but one of those people (BK, who started following MM, I believe it was, about 3 weeks before the murders turned out to have a few other links to the crime - like his DNA being at the death scene of MM and KG)..got more focus. I believe we heard (I have no link, so IIRC, JMO) that BK had downloaded pictures of at least one victim to his phone as well. (Here's the link:
)

Bottom line is that the murders happened between 4 am and 4:25 am and there's video of a white Elantra-type car at the scene (along with a DoorDash at approximately 4:00 am-4:10 am). So obviously, DD driver had to be checked out. The noises on the neighbor's camera (less than 50 feet away from Xana's window) caught a thud, whimpering and a dog barking around 4:17, DD driver's records show her elsewhere at that time.

But the Defense would need to choose a lane (a possible other suspect) to make that the defense. IMO.

To be effective, the Defense needs to give up spaghetti, but it's very hard to do in many criminal cases (cf. Alec Murdaugh or Letecia Stauch trials).
Was doordash driver a she? I thought I read an article interviewing the doordash driver and it was a he. I may be confusing the doordash driver with the rideshare driver.
 
Was doordash driver a she? I thought I read an article interviewing the doordash driver and it was a he. I may be confusing the doordash driver with the rideshare driver.

I may be wrong. I went to see what I could find about the DD driver and couldn't turn up their gender right away (but I thought it was a man until someone went on social media and said it was a woman - unconfirmed).

I thought LE discussed clearing the DD driver and I don't know if I just assumed the person was male (or if it was even stated).
 
I may be wrong. I went to see what I could find about the DD driver and couldn't turn up their gender right away (but I thought it was a man until someone went on social media and said it was a woman - unconfirmed).

I thought LE discussed clearing the DD driver and I don't know if I just assumed the person was male (or if it was even stated).
I'm not sure the gender of the DD driver has been revealed. IIRC, the private driver (UofI student service, "rideshare"?) that gave a ride home to Kaylee and Maddie from the Grub Truck was a male, though, and his testimony was in MSM and vetted by LE? IMO
 
About all these love letters to BK, most likely they are all from the same person, his mother.

Meanwhile, someone at the jail is about to be fired.
JMO

Edit for @wary: Thanks, yes. I don't want to give BK 's fan club any credibility so for me it's his mother.

"An employee at the jail, who did not reveal their name, but has frequent contact with the inmate told The Messenger 'it's disturbing.' 'He gets these letters a couple of times a week...they're usually handwritten with hearts and stars...colored envelopes,' he said. 'Everyone in the jail talks about how weird it is.'

 
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About all these love letters to BK, most likely they are all from the same person, his mother.

Meanwhile, someone at the jail is about to be fired.
JMO

"An employee at the jail, who did not reveal their name, but has frequent contact with the inmate told The Messenger 'it's disturbing.' 'He gets these letters a couple of times a week...they're usually handwritten with hearts and stars...colored envelopes,' he said. 'Everyone in the jail talks about how weird it is.'


Scroll down the article to where they quote someone who’s infatuated with him!
 
Was doordash driver a she? I thought I read an article interviewing the doordash driver and it was a he. I may be confusing the doordash driver with the rideshare driver.
The rideshare driver? You mean the person who dropped KG and MM at 1122 from downtown Moscow on Nov 13th early AM? According to MPD website info on case for public and MPD early press conferences he was male and a 'private party'. As for the DD driver, MOO but I don't believe LE or MSM AFAIK have released a gender. The PCA says the DD driver reported the delivery to LE, and the implication is strong in absence of info to contrary that driver was very, likely cleared pretty early on in investigation, just hard to say when IMO.

"...This is with the exception of Kernoodle, who received a DoorDash order
at the residence at approximately 4:00 am(law enforcement identified the Door Dash delivery driver who reported this information)." PCA p3.


 
DM’s eye witness testimony helps bolster the timeline and her description of the suspect does not eliminate BK.

They are not relying on her to definitively identify BK nor do they need her to put BK in the house.

His DNA puts him in the house. Anything else is a bonus.

If you want to get technical, the DNA doesn't put him in the house either, unless there's more DNA than we've learned about.
 
If you want to get technical, the DNA doesn't put him in the house either, unless there's more DNA than we've learned about.
In your opinion.
In my opinion his DNA on a murder weapon carrying case next to a victim murdered with a type of weapon carried in that kind of case, puts him the house beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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