4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

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MOO it's a delay tactic.
Finding a sleeper constitutional issue is a delay tactic as it has nothing to do with the with the accused's guilt or innocence, only when and if a trial can go forward.
Logsdon knows the Idaho Supreme Court ruled multiple times that BARD is not the standard for indictments. The only reason to bring up this motion is to stall, as you say, or so he can bring this motion through the courts at the taxpayers expense and make a name for himself.

Delay tactic good guess. Delay to hopefully convince his guilty client to take a plea to keep him off death row.

2 Cents
 
Okay, I understand. So it doesn't necessarily spell it out, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, but the defense is saying that essentially it is the standard of BARD to instruct the jury to indict if the evidence would warrant a jury conviction.

I'm not sure if this would be a constitutional issue since interpretation of this statue doesn't seem to contradict anything in Idaho's constitution. And since the Idaho Supreme Court has already issued written opinions that Probable Cause is the standard for indictment, the judge here has to go with that.
Yes, that is how I understood it too. Essentially BARD, but even if not BARD "warrant a conviction" is more than just "probable cause".

The Judge did say he was bound by the Supreme Court and 3 or 4 District Court decisons and that the issue needs to be settled by a higher court.

MOO

 
Sorry for any confusion — I cited State v Edmonson out of convenience (and because that particular challenge came from right here in Latah County!). But, I do think Judge Judge made the point quite clearly that PC has long bern the GJ standard in Idaho:

“Deputy Attorney General Jeff Nye, who is assisting the prosecution, countered that the Idaho Supreme Court has ruled on the issue multiple times, repeatedly upholding the probable cause standard. That burden of proof was properly met during Kohberger's grand jury proceeding, he said.

Second District Judge John Judge agreed, noting that grand juries have used the probable cause standard to indict people for 100 years in Idaho. He said Kohberger's defense attorneys would need to bring the issue to the Idaho Supreme Court if they want to pursue it further.”

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/nation-world/national/article281101543.html

As I understand JL’s argument, he was basically rearguing now long retired ISSC Justice Bistline’s dissenting opinion in State v Edmonson. But, IANAL so I could well be wrong!

Bistline’s dissent was wonderful & masterful, MOO, but it was still only a dissent from the majority opinion.

We differ in that I think PC is an appropriate GJ standard in Idaho, but I did find Bistline’s dissent intriguing & powerful. Would Idaho’s current Supreme Court decide differently a la Bistline’s or JL’s argument? Magic 8 Ball says: Very Doubtful.

All MOO, as always.
Agree. In the hearing it was mentioned that BARD was used for GJ indictment before 1920. They also mentioned 1980 for BARD being used. Since then it has been probable cause as the threshold for indictment. I'd like to know more about what happened in 1920 and 1980.

I don't believe JL was repeating Bistline in this argument. JL did talk a little about presentment and I think some of the arguments in the closed hearing might be related. Bistline only touches on probable cause. Bistline did attach the State Statutes to the dissent, but there is no discussion of the Field Code relating to GJ threshold nor Title 19 relating to the GJ warranting a conviction, that I can find. MOO

Also found it interesting that in State v. Edmonson the prosecutor instructed BARD. Which might be why there wasn't much discussion on the issue of probable cause?

From the majority opinion:

Further, without even considering the evidence used to find probable cause, we note that the prosecutor directed the grand jury that it should not indict unless all the elements of an alleged crime are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.


We do not differ as my opinion is still evolving (just now discovered Field Code and the history behind it).
Maybe the GJ purpose should just be a citizen check on LE and the Judge (probable cause arrest and finding) or maybe the GJ should be more than just a check? Elevating the requirement higher than probable cause might do what the FIeld Code was trying to do - fix the problems with the GJ system. Elevating the threshold could address: "you can indict a ham sandwich", wrongful conviction trajectory, abuse of the GJ system, and prosecutorial advantage. Just some thoughts. Still reading everyone's opinions.
All JMO
Would Idaho’s current Supreme Court decide differently a la Bistline’s or JL’s argument? Magic 8 Ball says: Very Doubtful.

All MOO, as always.
During the last hearing, the Judge did say:

"The law doesn't sit still, it evolves."
 
I wouldn't consider this a delay tactic. The defense has found something that really truly IS an issue and needs to be examined in depth. It would be completely unethical for the defense not to take this up with the State Supreme Court if they were not satisfied with the resolution in JJ's courtroom, which they were not.

All JMO.
I disagree. They already fought for every tiny instructional and procedural issue they could dig out of the instructions, selection of jurors, the juror questionaires, etc. They are only challenging the process because they haven't found anything more to challenge. If probable cause has been the wrong standard of proof for Grand Juries for 100 years, I find it impossible to believe that not one other attorney in the last 100 years has been good enough to challenge that and win. AT is a very experienced and capable public defender. She already took one fight to the Idaho Supreme Court and won. It was a fight that needed to be made, and I think it's great that she won it. But the fact that she has not fought this before tells me that this is a hail mary pass, not the same sort of fight she made before.
 
Investigators are returning to the house where the murders happened in Moscow, Idaho. The FBI will be back today to construct visual and audio exhibits and a physical model of the home. Plywood we have seen on doors and windows will be removed this morning.

This is interesting considering prosecutors initially approved of the home being demolished. University says they were told the visual displays take months to build and were not feasible under previous trial timeline -- but now that there is more time they can create the model.

Yes -- this is somewhat unexpected -- especially considering prosecutors agreed to have the house demolished. And it likely would have been torn down already had victims family members not fought it. I'm told family members got a heads up FBI would be back today.


 
Investigators are returning to the house where the murders happened in Moscow, Idaho. The FBI will be back today to construct visual and audio exhibits and a physical model of the home. Plywood we have seen on doors and windows will be removed this morning.

This is interesting considering prosecutors initially approved of the home being demolished. University says they were told the visual displays take months to build and were not feasible under previous trial timeline -- but now that there is more time they can create the model.

Yes -- this is somewhat unexpected -- especially considering prosecutors agreed to have the house demolished. And it likely would have been torn down already had victims family members not fought it. I'm told family members got a heads up FBI would be back today.



Is it me? I feel like their timing is really crappy. Today is Halloween and we're like 2 weeks from the anniversary of the murders. Okay now I'm really annoyed. JMOO

Ps. Don't want this case to be a circus, don't make this decision and go forward with this plan on Halloween
 
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So the Judge will review the IGG material in camera and decide what should be revealed to the defense and what should remain closed to the public (likely the name of the Kohberger relative whose DNA was used as a match to identify BK).

Interesting development.
 
So the Judge will review the IGG material in camera and decide what should be revealed to the defense and what should remain closed to the public (likely the name of the Kohberger relative whose DNA was used as a match to identify BK).

Interesting development.
Can the judge review it, release it to the defense, but seal it for 99 years, to protect the identities of the individuals identified by the tree?

Or is that a right to privacy that is waived by anyone submitting DNA to that database?

Jmo
 
Is it me? I feel like their timing is really crappy. Today is Halloween and we're like 2 weeks from the anniversary of the murders. Okay now I'm really annoyed. JMOO

Ps. Don't want this case to be a circus, don't make this decision and go forward with this plan on Halloween
Would there ever be a good time? Whenever they did it, it would end up being close to something. One of the victims' birthdays. The start of the semester. Exam time. Rush week.

I think what is most important is they do what needs to be done. Do it right and do it thoroughly, to best help the case come trial time.

Also, having a police presence clearly around the house at Halloween probably isn't a bad thing.

MOO
 
Would there ever be a good time? Whenever they did it, it would end up being close to something. One of the victims' birthdays. The start of the semester. Exam time. Rush week.

I think what is most important is they do what needs to be done. Do it right and do it thoroughly, to best help the case come trial time.

Also, having a police presence clearly around the house at Halloween probably isn't a bad thing.

MOO

Yes, I know and you are right. But the optics are ridiculous. Yesterday would have been good instead. JMOO
 
Yes, I know and you are right. But the optics are ridiculous. Yesterday would have been good instead. JMOO
Optics would have been worse if some drunk students broke in with an ouija board. I wouldn't have put it past someone to try, and no doubt it would have been all over Tiktok and then the Mail, Sun, and Mirror. I'd rather if anyone was in there, it was professionals doing their jobs with the victims in mind.

MOO
 
Optics would have been worse if some drunk students broke in with an ouija board. I wouldn't have put it past someone to try, and no doubt it would have been all over Tiktok and then the Mail, Sun, and Mirror. I'd rather if anyone was in there, it was professionals doing their jobs with the victims in mind.

MOO

See this is great. It's not something I condemn or prefer either way but you bring up some valid points and probably live someplace else and so can see it with full detachment. Just surprising if you live here, like whoa I didn't expect that. JMOO
 
I disagree. They already fought for every tiny instructional and procedural issue they could dig out of the instructions, selection of jurors, the juror questionaires, etc. They are only challenging the process because they haven't found anything more to challenge. If probable cause has been the wrong standard of proof for Grand Juries for 100 years, I find it impossible to believe that not one other attorney in the last 100 years has been good enough to challenge that and win. AT is a very experienced and capable public defender. She already took one fight to the Idaho Supreme Court and won. It was a fight that needed to be made, and I think it's great that she won it. But the fact that she has not fought this before tells me that this is a hail mary pass, not the same sort of fight she made before.
It looks like Logsdon does intend to take it to the Idaho Supreme Court, so we will see how it goes one way or the other. It is possible this has never been challenged before. JJ seemed to think Logsdon's idea was worthy of a higher court and I think the Idaho Supreme Court may as well.

Actually there were 3 other issues that the defense challenged. At least one of them was presented in the closed hearing and we don't know the result of that or if the other two issues were presented yet at all.
 
See this is great. It's not something I condemn or prefer either way but you bring up some valid points and probably live someplace else and so can see it with full detachment. Just surprising if you live here, like whoa I didn't expect that. JMOO
People are drawn to crime for all kinds of reasons, and for some, it's because there's a thrill for them. They haven't had a guard posted in a portacabin outside the house for months just because they felt like it. There's always a risk of people breaking in and 'souveniring'. And, with the presence of phones that can record, the taking of footage that can be broadcast internationally. The worst we've had so far is the 'bleeding house' picture, and that's with all the long lenses and drones the Mail could bankroll. One kid with a phone could put graphic photos of the rooms where they died all over the internet. They'd go viral. No putting that back in the box.

Sorry, I know it's grim, but it does happen, and it's only because they've carefully guarded the house that it hasn't happened.

MOO
 
Plywood just removed from doors and windows of house where 4 University of Idaho students were murdered. FBI going back in to construct a physical model of the inside. Latest on @NewsNation.


With the FBI continuing to provide hands on help to local PD...BK mind as well spare himself the death penalty and beg for a deal.

Also, you got to love the irony of the delay tactics opening a window for the FBI to do this. They are going to be able to run 10s of millions of simulations under thousands of varying conditions.

They are going to take the "there's no way BK would have had time..." whispers and squash it once and for all.
 
I disagree. They already fought for every tiny instructional and procedural issue they could dig out of the instructions, selection of jurors, the juror questionaires, etc. They are only challenging the process because they haven't found anything more to challenge. If probable cause has been the wrong standard of proof for Grand Juries for 100 years, I find it impossible to believe that not one other attorney in the last 100 years has been good enough to challenge that and win. AT is a very experienced and capable public defender. She already took one fight to the Idaho Supreme Court and won. It was a fight that needed to be made, and I think it's great that she won it. But the fact that she has not fought this before tells me that this is a hail mary pass, not the same sort of fight she made before.

Or she hasn't seen another case where she felt it would make a difference. I'm offering the disclaimer that I haven't been keeping up with this case like I used to so I might have missed some stuff, but the thinking that if it hasn't been objected to before, means there's nothing to object to doesn't make sense to me. A lot of laws change after decades when a case comes along to challenge the status quo.

MOO
 
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