4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

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It does not seem like the right time to demolish the house. All the students and community there for this academic year know the address so getting rid of it now does nothing to clear their memory or help the community heal for this academic year. Since the trial has not happened yet, it would not surprise me if youtubers and others who have an interest in this case try to visit the former house property even without the house there, assuming security goes away once the house is gone.

I think they should have compromised on the demolition date. It does not have to stand forever but letting it stand for this academic year and then tearing it down before the start of the next academic year in August 2024 would have been better if the university truly wanted to help the community and the university heal. The trial is supposed to start in June 2024, but even if it did not for some reason, then the university tearing it down would at least make sense for the new students and renters living in that area going into the next academic year.

Just because the house is not physically there does not mean everyone who lives in or around 1122 King Road is not going to know what happened at that location in the early morning hours of November 13th, 2022.

Neighbors don't want "rubber-neckers" driving up by the house for years just to drive by and point to the house where 4 students were murdered.

I get that. If I was a neighbor, time to move on and possibly the land owner build a new house there.
 
IMO
Tearing the house down before the trial is a big mistake.
Especially, if the families of victims oppose this idea.

This terrible case has not concluded yet.
Demolishing the crime scene can be done after the trial.

JMO
 
Tearing the house down before the trial is a big mistake.
Especially, if the families of victims oppose this idea.

This terrible case has not concluded yet.
Murders happen on private property with regularity. After the crime scene is processed, the private house, mall, school, church, etc. are not forced to be uninhabitable/unusable/unsellable, while waiting for a trial or because the victims' families want to keep it as is for a while. Owners are free to repair or dispose of their property, they cannot be financially burdened with securing and maintaining a "crime scene". There have been more than a few horrific mass murders and the buildings were demolished before the trials without issue.
As others have pointed out, the scene is no longer of value for evidence, other than to possibly show jurors, but even that has been done with modern technology for some time. They would not take jurors in that house that no longer accurately reflects how it looked on the day of the murders, especially with the possibility of poor air quality.
 
I believe in the PCA mentions one of the surviving roommates though KG was playing with her dog. with no greater clarity.

I have always assumed that her brain concluded that the scuffling noises she may have heard sounded like a dog playing with a tug toy but it could also be that Murphy barked when he got excited.

Factually, it is a myth that all dogs bark when the sense danger and KG's family did indicate they did not feel Murphy would bark because he was quite timid.
All of the below is MOO. And from the PCA and the article cited at the bottom.

Yep. Some time after DM woke up she heard the sounds above her that she attributed to the dog playing with Kaylee.

Long Story Short: My belief (IMO) is that DM actually heard Murphy the dog reacting to the sounds of Ethan and Xana being murdered. First. And the voice she heard shortly after was Kaylee's.

Longer story...

The info in the NewsNation article below has been floating around for awhile now. So I'm wondering who their source actually was. But if you believe it, and you line it up with the PCA....then you also have to believe the PCA omits what actually woke DM up from her sleep.

The sounds of a after party.

IMO, I believe that the sounds that interrupted DMs sleep the first time (omitted from the PCA), and woke her, were actually the final seconds of the struggle between BK, Ethan and Xana while they were attacked/murdered.

lso IMO as those sounds are waking up people in the house it also likely woke up and scared the dog Murphy. Who was probably frantically running/jumping/scratching around the room above DM. And what she hears after that is Kaylee's voice and not Xana's.

Naturally murder was likely not the first thing on DMs mind. And we see these initially innocent interpretations in the PCA. And we also see the slow realization of what's actually happening, culminating in seeing the masked person (BK) and the 'shock phase'.

MOO


 

Finally. Then people can't keep insisting that the jury needs it when the prosecution says it is a HEALTH hazard to walk through. And says that there are several reasons it is not appropriate to do a jury walk through.

Lead prosecutor Thompson says all the items relative to the crime scenes are gone including some of the walls and flooring.

2 Cents - have posted link multiple times.
 
If this was indeed a party house and the dog was used to those sounds, I doubt he did much of anything. This isn’t a dog in a movie… if he wasn’t the type to go crazy barking whenever a car pulled in (which at a college house with multiple roommates, was likely a lot MOO) he may very well have just laid there and listened without stirring. I had a dog who was awesome, but he never barked and if anyone came into our house, he just wanted to meet them- he wasn’t frantic or upset or worried. JMO, another perspective.
 
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All of the below is MOO. And from the PCA and the article cited at the bottom.

Yep. Some time after DM woke up she heard the sounds above her that she attributed to the dog playing with Kaylee.

Long Story Short: My belief (IMO) is that DM actually heard Murphy the dog reacting to the sounds of Ethan and Xana being murdered. First. And the voice she heard shortly after was Kaylee's.

Longer story...

The info in the NewsNation article below has been floating around for awhile now. So I'm wondering who their source actually was. But if you believe it, and you line it up with the PCA....then you also have to believe the PCA omits what actually woke DM up from her sleep.

The sounds of a after party.

IMO, I believe that the sounds that interrupted DMs sleep the first time (omitted from the PCA), and woke her, were actually the final seconds of the struggle between BK, Ethan and Xana while they were attacked/murdered.

lso IMO as those sounds are waking up people in the house it also likely woke up and scared the dog Murphy. Who was probably frantically running/jumping/scratching around the room above DM. And what she hears after that is Kaylee's voice and not Xana's.

Naturally murder was likely not the first thing on DMs mind. And we see these initially innocent interpretations in the PCA. And we also see the slow realization of what's actually happening, culminating in seeing the masked person (BK) and the 'shock phase'.

MOO


I think the dog was in the room above the kitchen(Kaylees old room) not the room above DM. If I remember right Kaylee and Maddie were in Maddies room above DM. Been a while since I watched the videos non the layout though.

Hope everyone had a great Christmas.
 
I agree with the families 100%!!!
And I'm losing my hope that the victims and their poor families will ever see Justice
:(
Each day is torture for them.

JMO
Of course they'll see justice. Judge Judge just ruled in favor of the prosecution regarding the several points the defense made to dismiss the indictment. He also ruled that a court camera will televise the trial which gives transparency to the proceedings.

The prosecution filed a Motion asking for a 6 week trial including the penalty phase and asked for it to be in the summer of 2024. They gave reasons why having it during students' summer vacation would be best.

They made an arrest only 6 weeks after the crimes which is fast. A Grand Jury sent down an indictment with 4 felony charges with aggravated enhancements which qualifies for the death penalty.

The prosecution put on the pressure and got BK to admit he was driving around that night but doesn't know where he was at the time of the crimes.

Thus, BK himself has put himself in the Moscow area that night driving a car that matches the car on camera on King Rd. BK's phone cell tower hits match the areas the white car is seen on video. BK's phone shows he was in the Moscow area 12 times and 11 of those are incriminating due to their time frame.

The witness description can't rule BK out and was given before BK was identified and arrested.

MOTION FOR SCHEDULING ORDER
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Finally. Then people can't keep insisting that the jury needs it when the prosecution says it is a HEALTH hazard to walk through. And says that there are several reasons it is not appropriate to do a jury walk through.

Lead prosecutor Thompson says all the items relative to the crime scenes are gone including some of the walls and flooring.

2 Cents - have posted link multiple times.
If they really wanted the jury to see what the house was like, it would have to be done between 4 and 5 am, and they would have to move the lamps, neon signs and night lites back into the house.

And replaster the walls and redo the flooring. And move the furniture back in.

But first they'd have to decontaminate it, repaint, refurbish the whole thing.

Not.Going.To.Happen.
 
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If they really wanted the jury to see what the house was like, it would have to be done between 4 and 5 am, and they would have to move the lamps, neon signs and night lites back into the house.

And replaster the walls and redo the flooring. And move the furniture back in.

But first they'd have to decontaminate it, repaint, refurbish the whole thing.

Not.Going.To.Happen.

Oh, the places this could go! And on a November night!

That would be the most unusual (and precedent setting) evidence ever presented in a Court, IMO. And if one juror spoke out of turn - it's a mistrial, to boot.

And who would introduce this evidence? It seems as if the public thinks the JURY can ask for evidence (it cannot!) The two sides present evidence (after pretrial "fights") and the Judge rules on their various arguments about evidence, using precedents (thankfully).

Jurors are specifically banned from seeking/using/finding/talking about evidence on their own. For obvious reasons. It would given them even more stress (because they cannot talk to their families about it - but their families are watching the media coverage of what will be a media and legal circus).

How odd, really. To have a total lock down on any kind of fact or evidence (not dependent on perception) and then open the flood gates to juror perceptions, including psychic, psychological, own lived experience, etc.

Mistrial City, IMO. But apparently AT is not willing to risk it - because it can so strongly urge people on the juror to listen to those with strong personalities as the jury tries to make sense of this "evidence." Mostly, I believe people will come away with a terrible sense of grief, but also perplexity - because there's no blood any more, no party lights any more, no furniture - nothing to indicate that a crime took place, only a slowly decomposing and very sad place. Not the right mood, I would think that the Defense would want. Will help the prosecution.

It helped OJ that the jurors saw how elegant, rich and apparently orderly his life had been. This will be the opposite. It will just be sadness and grief - and IMO, Defense attorneys try to avoid that.

JMO
 
Brian Entin's X: Family's Q's & 1122 King Demo
@Cindizzi As usual, TYVM for bringing us these links sooo fast. So fast I think the ink ;) on Brian Entin's X/Twittter entry was not even dry. ;) ("Ink was not even dry yet" was an expression frequently I heard decades ago, when working w an owner-publisher of small town newpaper)

I'm sorry to read Goncalves & Kernoodle's statement, which seems to take swings re the ongoing crim procedure.

First, at LE agencies?
Stmt. says the house "should remain standing for basic evidenciary puposes," then lists 8 questions about vantage points & views, auditory ranges, biological evidence, entrances & exits, etc.
For basic evd'ry purposes? As if LE did not consider these issues, may not have conduced a thorough investigation? At least that's my interp'tn. We don't know all that LE & Prosecutor have.

Second, at Prosecutor & staff?
Stmt continues re questions "no one seems to be able to answer about the King Road house."
Stmt says families asked prosecutor's office questions.Seems no (satisfactory?) answers.
Under ID Constitution & ID statutes* family members of deceased crime victims have numerous rights during investigation & prosecution of crimes. But being given answers to family's specific questions about evidence pre-trial is not among those rights.

Third, at the trial judge?
Noting the passage of a year's time, stmt says, "The Court in this matter has delayed long enough."
I have not tried to tally the number of days it took for judge to rule on motions for each one to calculate the total number of months, but I think defendant's scores of motions are at the root of the delay.
Plus this: "... The Court has put us in a horrible position to have to voice our opinions."

Fourth, at UI.
And for good measure, slam one at the Uni, now the owner 1122 King, asking "to stop this madness" re impending demo.

Finally, I'm a puzzled by this part of stmt: "When the victim's [sic] can't speak you have to speak for them when you feel someone is hurting the case."
Who is that someone?

Maybe if standing in their shoes, I'd be tempted to make public stmts like this, IDK.

As frustrating, even maddening, as it must be for these families ATM, I hope eventually they can find some comfort in the resolution of this case.
____________________________________

* “19-5306. RIGHTS OF VICTIM DURING INVESTIGATION, PROSECUTION, AND DISPOSITION OF THE CRIME.”
Section 19-5306 – Idaho State Legislature
 
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Prosecutor Emails (again) re 1122 King Demo
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@Cindizzi Thx for link.
Prosecutor emailed Uni on Dec. 22, location is "So substantially different" that "a jury view would not be authorized."

Thought of delayed demo or jury view has been
rendered virtually hypothetical now, but-----

If any one had advocated for delaying demo for a jury view, imo the State has plenty of photos, vids, Faro type 3D images, scale models recorded in Nov. 2022 and some more recently.
The judge could COMPARE BEFOREs & AFTERs and see that the conditions a jury would observe in the future is so different than the conditions at time of crime, that a jury view would have no or limited value as evidence.
jmo
 
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Jury Views, "Rare"
FWIW. Former deputy prosecutor for Kootenai County, not Latah County where this case is filed, says he's gotten the thumbs down "multiple times."

"Jed Whitaker... said “it’s rare” to have jury walk through crime scenes any more because of the advancement in technology...".
"Whitaker has tried asking the court for a jury walk-through multiple times, he said. Every single time he was shut down because of 3D imaging and photographs."


Also from Whitaker, re LEGAL STRATEGY re JV's.
"A setback, if the jury did walk through the home, would be that the defendant is required to be there with them, Whitaker said. The defendant has to be present for all aspects of trial, otherwise it is grounds for an appeal."

“If he is there, they will associate that house with him,” Whitaker said. “If I was a defense lawyer I’d object. If I was a prosecutor I wouldn’t go there.”

_____________________
 
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The roof is not flat. Each part of the roof is a single angle slanted roof and real estate photos clearly showed an attic hatch on the 3rd floor in the hallway. There would be attic space without any question. It might be low so an adult had to crawl, but there is attic space. See the photo of the house here showing the angled roof:
You can see the attic hatch, located in the ceiling just outside of MM's bedroom here (#11 of 23):

The ONLY non-angled part of the roof was the flat part of the roof on top of the front edge of the 1st floor and outside of Xana's bedroom window.

JMO
I think this is a regional language issue. I would call that a ceiling cavity, not an attic. An attic, in my mind, is a semifinished space, often accessed by stairs, which is used primarily for storage, where there is height enough to stand. It's a room, not a void, if that makes sense.
 
I understand family members' grief. But I really really wish someone from the prosecution would sit down with them and explain the rules regarding jury visits.

Like the fact that jury visit requests must come from the prosecution or the defense team--not the jury itself.

Or the fact that while the jury may make observations while they are there, they can NOT do "experiments" to test evidence or theories. Given that they are not allowed to talk during the visit, all the claims of "but they would then be able to see if you could hear the sounds of a struggle in DM's room or BF's room or X talking or K talking or the dog..." are moot. The most they could possibly assess is whether you could hear footsteps of people who aren't trying to be sneaky--and that's only if the jury is allowed to split up and some of them be on the 1st floor or 2nd floor level while some are on the 3rd floor or X's room.

And while they can walk through and get a more visceral image of the layout and spacing, they can't time themselves walking through rapidly while pretending to do the murders to see if they were possible in the proposed time frame.
 
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