4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #92

[mmeynstyn]

I supposed it's also possible that he chose the house rather than specific occupants of the house. Maybe he would sit and watch the parties. The house and occupants represented what he was not. Young, well-adjusted, living their best lives. Maybe he really didn't "know" any of them, but just struck out at what the house and occupants represented. Just a thought.

I like your thought. I can't help but think he knew it was a party house with many people coming and going....then, the opportunity presented itself at the right time for him - the DD order. JMO, his timing around the time of the DD delivery seemed far too coincidental to me. Does anyone recall what kind of car the DD driver had? (as I go back down that rat hole - lol)

 

[Balthazar]

Now that we know from BT (the prosecutor) that BK was not stalking anyone nor did he do social media with anyone from that house and, Mr. G indicated that KG's wounds were far worse than MM. When one victim's wounds are much worse than another victim's wounds, it is referred to as overkill. Usually in cases where one victim's wounds are far worse than those of another victim, this indicates that the victim with the worse wounds was the target. But, if BK didn't know them by stalking or social media, then he could not have targeted KG. She was not a big woman, so although she fought she would not be much of an adversary for a man over 6' tall. If BK just chose that house randomly, why the overkill on KG?

 

[Sundog]

Now that we know from BT (the prosecutor) that BK was not stalking anyone nor did he do social media with anyone from that house and, Mr. G indicated that KG's wounds were far worse than MM. When one victim's wounds are much worse than another victim's wounds, it is referred to as overkill. Usually in cases where one victim's wounds are far worse than those of another victim, this indicates that the victim with the worse wounds was the target. But, if BK didn't know them by stalking or social media, then he could not have targeted KG. She was not a big woman, so although she fought she would not be much of an adversary for a man over 6' tall. If BK just chose that house randomly, why the overkill on KG?

Possibly MM was asleep when the attack started, and KG woke up and fought back forociously to try to save her life. That would be a possible explanation for why the wounds were greater on KG than MM.

 

[Swansee]

Now that we know from BT (the prosecutor) that BK was not stalking anyone nor did he do social media with anyone from that house and, Mr. G indicated that KG's wounds were far worse than MM. When one victim's wounds are much worse than another victim's wounds, it is referred to as overkill. Usually in cases where one victim's wounds are far worse than those of another victim, this indicates that the victim with the worse wounds was the target. But, if BK didn't know them by stalking or social media, then he could not have targeted KG. She was not a big woman, so although she fought she would not be much of an adversary for a man over 6' tall. If BK just chose that house randomly, why the overkill on KG?

That is indeed another one of the problematic implications of the lack of stalking.
Xana also fought back, but the severity of Kaylee's wounds is unmatched in the house. Xana's wounds are clearly described as including defensive wounds, but Kaylees are not. Poor Kaylee took the brunt of the killer's rage. Why?
If I just purely look at what happened in the house, this crime does seem like there's a personal aspect to it IMO. I can't reconcile that with a total stranger who never stalked or even interacted with any of them.
We're missing something. Perhaps an interaction that we don't know about, or perhaps...?

 

[Swansee]

About the stalking: We have been lied to by the media once again. If you don't want to read a rant you can stop here.
They extrapolated fantasies out of ambiguous language in the PCA and sold them to us as facts. They made whole documentaries about him being a stalker.
They did the same when they spent hours elaborating on the Papa Rodgers posts (remember Coffindaffer bragging about"cracking the Pappa Rodgers code"? What a joke) , stating that BK was certainly behind that account, when it turns out to have nothing to do with him.
They exaggerated again when they said it was a fact that "BK bought a knife on Amazon" when there was only a search warrant for his Amazon. They did it when they said for sure "BK bought Dickies coveralls", when all there really is is an unspecific Dickies receipt.
And lets not forget how they went on for days about the ID cards in a glove in a box, and how those cards absolutely belonged to the King road house residents, and that was a lie too..
Of course they never publish retractions, so their lies stay online forever and continue to misinform people. I want to see them retract these stories, pull those documentaries and apologize to the viewers. I'm not holding my breath for it though.
I am so tired of their sensationalist nonsense. Rant over, for now.

 

[katydid23]

That is indeed another one of the problematic implications of the lack of stalking.
Xana also fought back, but the severity of Kaylee's wounds is unmatched in the house. Xana's wounds are clearly described as including defensive wounds, but Kaylees are not. Poor Kaylee took the brunt of the killer's rage. Why?
If I just purely look at what happened in the house, this crime does seem like there's a personal aspect to it IMO. I can't reconcile that with a total stranger who never stalked or even interacted with any of them.
We're missing something. Perhaps an interaction that we don't know about, or perhaps...?

They cannot know for sure if he was lurking around and watching one of them, either on social media or by driving around. Just because he didn't post anything to them from his known account, doesn't mean he never looked at one of their IGs or saw them on the Food Truck stream or watched them at that local bar hangout.

Elliott Rodger had a lot of internal anger and he released it by killing college students on the main party street, which was full of frat boys and sorority girls. He unloaded on them all. He wasn't stalking any of those specific girls but the ones he shot were of the 'type' he hated...pretty, young blonde hot girls.

I think that BK could have known about that party house just from driving in the area previously----he'd see frat people coming and going on various party nights. JMO

 

[katydid23]

They cannot know for sure if he was lurking around and watching one of them, either on social media or by driving around. Just because he didn't post anything to them from his known account, doesn't mean he never looked at one of their IGs or saw them on the Food Truck stream or watched them at that local bar hangout.

Elliott Rodger had a lot of internal anger and he released it by killing college students on the main party street, which was full of frat boys and sorority girls. He unloaded on them all. He wasn't stalking any of those specific girls but the ones he shot were of the 'type' he hated...pretty, young blonde hot girls.

I think that BK could have known about that party house just from driving in the area previously----he'd see frat people coming and going on various party nights. JMO

My theory is that BK likely had a couple of potential targets picked out for weeks-----a couple of places he knew where he could get to the type of girls that rudely ignored and rejected him. On that November night he drove around until he decided upon one of them....Maybe one of the others had a full blown party going on? Or he saw 4 frat boys inside and decided that was too risky?

Then he swung by King Road and saw a good parking space and then saw the Delivery Driver walking up...and it was GO time...JMO MOO

 

[Swansee]

@katydid23
I understand what you're saying about the unknowns that remain about BK. IIRC the Corner Club people said they'd never seen him there, same with the Mad Greek people. As I've said before if he was just angry at pretty sorority girls in general I bet there are plenty at WSU.
Regarding the Elliott Rodger comparisons, however, in my opinion, there's something very different between pulling a trigger to shoot at someone across a street and the up close and gory nature of what happened in the King road house. I could be wrong, but knife crime, especially one where the victims are stabbed and slashed so many times, seems much more personal. And even more so because this would be his first time. That's also the difference with the Bundy comparisons: BK doesn't have a history of this.
But perhaps I just don't know enough about true crime : are there other cases where a first time killer used a knife to overkill total strangers like that?
ETA: I just saw your other post. I'm not sure BK really was such a reject. I do remember him getting phone numbers from those two girls at a pool party that summer, so I guess not everyone found him undesirable.

 

[katydid23]

@katydid23
I understand what you're saying about the unknowns that remain about BK. IIRC the Corner Club people said they'd never seen him there, same with the Mad Greek people.

I've seen how crowded Corner Club can get. I don't think they can know for sure if BK had ever been there before. He could have worn a hat and sat quietly on the patio---who'd notice him or remember 6 months later?

The same with Mad Greek. Of course they'll say he never went there because they don't want their place involved---but they cannot be sure he never went there for a lettuce wrap. He is not that unusual and if he wanted to stay unnoticed he probably could.

As I've said before if he was just angry at pretty sorority girls in general I bet there are plenty at WSU.

He would be stupid to do anything where he taught and attended campus activities. Too easy to be recognised.

Regarding the Elliott Rodger comparisons, however, in my opinion, there's something very different between pulling a trigger to shoot at someone across a street and the up close and gory nature of what happened in the King road house. I could be wrong, but knife crime, especially one where the victims are stabbed and slashed so many times, seems much more personal.

Rodgers stabbed 3 of his victims and then went on a shooting spree:

"On May 23, 2014, six University of California, Santa Barbara students lost their lives. They were killed by a 22-year-old man, Elliot Rodger, who fatally stabbed three friends — including his two roommates — inside his apartment before going on a shooting spree, killing three more."

And even more so because this would be his first time.

[I'm not convinced this was his very first time. But it could be.]

There are other killers who stabbed their victims, even though it was their first killing. One example:

A 14 yr old named Aiden Fucci – convicted of first-degree murder for stabbing a 13-year-old friend over 100 times in 2021.

"Bailey’s was found after her family had reported her missing earlier that day. She had been stabbed 114 times and sustained 49 defensive wounds to her head, hands, and arms, according to the state attorney.

The prosecutor said that Fucci had told witnesses that he intended to stab someone to death in the woods. Additionally, Fucci’s DNA was found on Bailey’s body, according to CNN’s previous reporting."

That's also the difference with the Bundy comparisons: BK doesn't have a history of this.

Neither did Aiden Fucci. He had no motive for stabbing his victim 114 times---he had just told friends a day or 2 earlier that he was looking for someone to kill to see how it felt.

The judge said:

“This was not done out of greed, it was not done in retaliation, retribution, or revenge, it was not a crime of passion, it was not a crime that was committed because he felt rejected by her. It was not done in a fit of uncontrollable anger. There was no reason. There was no purpose,” he went on. “It was done for no other reason than to satisfy this defendant’s internal desire to feel what it was like to kill someone.”

But perhaps I just don't know enough about true crime : are there other cases where a first time killer used a knife to overkill total strangers like that?

Plenty of examples, sadly enough.

Teenager stabbed ‘more than 100 times’ by stranger he agreed to meet in woods​

A teenager was stabbed more than 100 times by a man who concealed his body in a remote woodland spot, a court has heard.
Alex Davies, 18, was killed on Parbold Hill in Lancashire where he had agreed to meet Brian Healless for the first time on April 28. The pair exchanged messages but an hour later Healless, 18, was seen on CCTV cycling away from Parbold carrying the victim’s rucksack, Preston Crown Court was told.
The prosecution say Healless, who denies murder, attacked his target with a kitchen knife before partly burying his body and riding to his home in Chorley on a mountain bike.

Teenager stabbed 'more than 100 times' by stranger he agreed to meet in woods

The victim's body was found when a gamekeeper spotted an arm under a pile of broken conifers.

metro.co.uk

DEADLY Tinder Date
19 yr old girl stabs man in the neck on their 'first date.' On the night of the murder, Sarah M even sent a voice message to a friend saying “I'm going out now, I want to kill my first one. I'm excited. Wish me luck that it works."

Teen girl, 19, fatally stabbed stranger after using app to lure him on 1st date

A TWISTED teen used a dating app to lure a man on a first date before plunging a knife in his neck within minutes. The 19-year-old, named only as Sarah M due to Germany’s strict privacy laws, idoli…

www.the-sun.com

Teen Stabbed Stranger
Here is a 17 yr old who stabbed a stranger because 'I was in a bad mood'

Teenager who stabbed stranger on way home from supermarket jailed for 13 years

The judge said the ‘sole reason’ for the ‘utterly senseless’ attack was the youth’s bad mood at the time.

www.bracknellnews.co.uk

ETA: I just saw your other post. I'm not sure BK really was such a reject. I do remember him getting phone numbers from those two girls at a pool party that summer, so I guess not everyone found him undesirable.

I think he often felt rejected. According to some of his journals he did feel like he didn't fit in. And his childhood friends said that the 'mean girls' humiliated him in school, shaming him to tears. He seemed to be a loner, imo.

 

[NCWatcher]

That is indeed another one of the problematic implications of the lack of stalking.
Xana also fought back, but the severity of Kaylee's wounds is unmatched in the house. Xana's wounds are clearly described as including defensive wounds, but Kaylees are not. Poor Kaylee took the brunt of the killer's rage. Why?
If I just purely look at what happened in the house, this crime does seem like there's a personal aspect to it IMO. I can't reconcile that with a total stranger who never stalked or even interacted with any of them.
We're missing something. Perhaps an interaction that we don't know about, or perhaps...?

BBM
I'm certainly not trying to tell people what should or shouldn't be discussed about this case. BUT are we certain Kaylee's wounds were worse? I've looked and the only source for that contention that I can find is Kaylee's father. He's also talked a lot about KG and/or MM being targeted. Not everything he has said has stood the test of time (even without going to trial) but some things said early on certainly seemed to have gained a life of their own.

Kaylee Goncalves' injuries 'more brutal' than other Idaho students

He also stated Kaylee tried to fight back but was trapped in the bed by MM body

University of Idaho murder victim tried escaping suspected killer Bryan Kohberger but was ‘trapped’ by friend’s body: family

Kaylee, 21, was killed alongside her best friend, Madison “Maddie” Mogen, 21, and two others on Nov. 13, 2022.

nypost.com

Of course, the coroner also did a fair amount of blabbing early on.

Idaho murders coroner told victim’s teen sister horror death details, mother says

Kristi Goncalves said her teenage daughter was told of graphic details about her 21-year-old sister’s death

www.the-independent.com

Perhaps the coroner said something about KG's wounds being worse but I can't find a source saying she did.
MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agreed. The entire defense team believes this. These are not stupid or naive people. It is uncommon for a defense team to make such a statement.

I disagree, most of the cases I've followed on WS the Defense always say or strongly imply that their client is 'not guilty', or 'looking forward to exonerating him of these charges', etc. The Defense has a job to do, they're not going to come out and say they think he's guilty even if they believe it.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Now that stalking is officially out of the picture, what are the implications?
The police stated from the beginning: "this was a targeted attack". Was that also not true? Was it just stated to avoid panic in the community?
Another issue is: if BK is the killer but did not stalk any of them, yet this was a "targeted attack", how would he know which rooms to go to? Did he just go upstairs randomly?

We don't know stalking is definitely out. It may be out (for now) for discussion purposes until trial.

MOO

 

[Kemug]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

 

[NCWatcher]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

I'm not sure suspicion of involvement in another crime, if it existed, would be admissable at the trial for THIS crime.
MOO

 

[katydid23]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

The problem is, a young loner type guy, who has time on his side, studies forensics and loves to drive around aimlessly all night---yikes----there'd be no way to connect him to random attacks, imo.

 

[Swansee]

@katydid23
Whoa... I had no idea. Those are some atrocious crimes. Thank you for the eye-opener.

 

[MissyRie]

I presume that LE have been diligently searching for any previous crime (especially of violence) that could have involved BK. Would we know if something had been found, or would it be kept quiet until revealed in the course of the trial, do you think?

I feel like we would know if they had found something because they would have to file charges. They couldn't find that he did something back in 2019 and keep it a secret to use at trial.
Right?

 

[Diogenetic]

Elliott Rodger had a lot of internal anger and he released it by killing college students on the main party street, which was full of frat boys and sorority girls. He unloaded on them all. He wasn't stalking any of those specific girls but the ones he shot were of the 'type' he hated...pretty, young blonde hot girls.

Yes, but half the people Rodger killed were Asian men that he bludgeoned or stabbed to death that were his roommates It was also some kind of issue with them as he killed them first. Also the person most seriously injured, paralyzed for life, he directly struck with his car.
I do agree he was manifestly mentally ill (diagnosed at age 8) and misogynist. but none of the people he killed with knife, gun or car were blonde:

California Rampage Victims: Their Stories

US police have now named all of the six victims killed in a rampage by 22-year-old Elliot Rodger. Sky News looks at their stories.

news.sky.com

I think he just resented people were were happy.

 

[Diogenetic]

About the stalking: We have been lied to by the media once again. .....
Of course they never publish retractions, so their lies stay online forever and continue to misinform people. I want to see them retract these stories, pull those documentaries and apologize to the viewers. I'm not holding my breath for it though.
I am so tired of their sensationalist nonsense. Rant over, for now.

I think the Kohlberer case is not merely about bad reporting, it is illustrative of a specific and broad issue with our media. It is probably not new, sensationalist crime reporting is as old as media. But what we saw between the occurrence of this crime, and the arrest of the subject was the most atrocious news media performance. to include is attempted defacto blackmail of the investigators, calling them out as incompentant, when in fact what was going on was investigators were developing the case for arrest and proper protected evidence on an assailant they had correctly identified and were surveilling. Even CNN was disgustingly attacking investigators -- exploiting and stoking -- one set of parent's grief in this case. The media was just doing this so they could have one fresh piece of info or rumor each news cycle. Not just reporters: you can bet their bosses, the editors, were putting reporters under extreme pressure to get some new fresh info every day.

The local cops were doing everything right. They were not blocking in any way participation by a state and federal authorities as the press implied. The had asked for and got all proper assistance from state and federal authorities. All while the press was pillorying them as some kind of hicks for simply not telling the craven media everything known.

 

[Diogenetic]

1/3 Bryan Kohberber prosecutor says it is false that Kohberger stalked one of the victims.

I think what we maybe running into here are that there are legal definition/criminal code definitions of stalking. While there is also completely legal casing of home or observing, following, getting information on movements etc of potential victims that would not violate stalking laws, but still be what most people understand as stalking