4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #93

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whinewiththegravy said:
I could see it working for just the right opening and closing. Raise a jury’s expectations with inflammatory, incriminating information—“just look at all the lies and innuendo and fantasies that made Bryan an easy target! Hark at how the state tried in advance of this trial to ply the public with misinformation with the help of Fake News and Reddit!”—and then crow that the prosecution didn’t present any of it because it could be refuted.

Contrast sexy, easily digestible stuff like social media stalking—which neither side claims had happened—with dry, technical cell phone soothsaying that supports the actual on-the-ground surveilling. Really speaks to the contrarian mindset that glories in a good conspiracy. Just look at how manufactured doubts about poor DM’s credibility have been seeded into the public discourse.
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Maybe. But I'd be surprised if that sort of jury was seated. A bunch of conspiracy theorists? Somebody fell down on doing their job during voir dire!
MOO
 
whinewiththegravy said:
I should hope not, but good lard. We do live in interesting times.
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That's certainly true!

I just don't see the defense survey of 400 people in the county being such a huge danger. If it is, and there's a gullible conspiracy-oriented jury seated, then just about anything, including the legit MSM and the wild and crazy social media, could cause justice to go off the rails. That's the point where we need to think seriously about abolishing the jury system as it stands and think about using professional jurors instead. (Anyone who has served in a jury probably has thought that at least once anyway. In my experience it isn't the juror who believes anything a defense attorney says [like Jose Baez] who is commonly encountered and alarming, but the jurors who say during deliberations "well, they wouldn't have charged him if he didn't do it." Yikes!)
MOO
 
NCWatcher said:
That's certainly true!

I just don't see the defense survey of 400 people in the county being such a huge danger. If it is, and there's a gullible conspiracy-oriented jury seated, then just about anything, including the legit MSM and the wild and crazy social media, could cause justice to go off the rails. That's the point where we need to think seriously about abolishing the jury system as it stands and think about using professional jurors instead. (Anyone who has served in a jury probably has thought that at least once anyway. In my experience it isn't the juror who believes anything a defense attorney says [like Jose Baez] who is commonly encountered and alarming, but the jurors who say during deliberations "well, they wouldn't have charged him if he didn't do it." Yikes!)
MOO
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I’ve never heard of this practice of using push polling in the local target juror population prior to a trial. Apparently there’s no court oversight for veracity of questions or content of additional messaging during calls. Is this something unique to Iowa?
 
Betty P said:
I’ve never heard of this practice of using push polling in the local target juror population prior to a trial. Apparently there’s no court oversight for veracity of questions or content of additional messaging during calls. Is this something unique to Iowa?
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Well, what's being done is definitely not push polling. You suggested earlier that it was but it's not.
Betty P said:
Just read that article and it looks like a new dirty trick for defense teams. Spam call potential jurors and do some "push polling". Some political campaigns do the same thing.
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What's being done, surveying the knowledge, attitudes, and prejudgement of potential jurors is done everywhere in the US when the defense wants to pursue a change of venue. It's not an Iowa (or Idaho) thing. Courts require data showing there may be a problem providing a fair trial in that county. The defense can't just say "we think it's a problem. Move the trial please." Data from the current jurisdiction must be gathered to show the court providing a fair trial is likely to be a problem. Part of the data gathering involves making a comparison with other areas in the particular state.

The judge in this case has allowed the surveying to continue with no changes in the content. In most cases, the court wouldn't pre-approve a survey anyway. The main question here involved the gag order.
MOO
 
NCWatcher said:
Well, what's being done is definitely not push polling. You suggested earlier that it was but it's not.


What's being done, surveying the knowledge, attitudes, and prejudgement of potential jurors is done everywhere in the US when the defense wants to pursue a change of venue. It's not an Iowa (or Idaho) thing. Courts require data showing there may be a problem providing a fair trial in that county. The defense can't just say "we think it's a problem. Move the trial please." Data from the current jurisdiction must be gathered to show the court providing a fair trial is likely to be a problem. Part of the data gathering involves making a comparison with other areas in the particular state.

The judge in this case has allowed the surveying to continue with no changes in the content. In most cases, the court wouldn't pre-approve a survey anyway. The main question here involved the gag order.
MOO
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I don't think surveys are common at all, never seen them done on any change of venue requests on any case I have followed.

It is expensive for one thing and not necessary most of the time . Appears to be rare actually.... 2 Cents
 
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NCWatcher said:
Well, what's being done is definitely not push polling. You suggested earlier that it was but it's not.


What's being done, surveying the knowledge, attitudes, and prejudgement of potential jurors is done everywhere in the US when the defense wants to pursue a change of venue. It's not an Iowa (or Idaho) thing. Courts require data showing there may be a problem providing a fair trial in that county. The defense can't just say "we think it's a problem. Move the trial please." Data from the current jurisdiction must be gathered to show the court providing a fair trial is likely to be a problem. Part of the data gathering involves making a comparison with other areas in the particular state.

The judge in this case has allowed the surveying to continue with no changes in the content. In most cases, the court wouldn't pre-approve a survey anyway. The main question here involved the gag order.
MOO
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It would be great to see a link to an example of this type of public poll, particularly one that’s conducted by the defense team, unsupervised by the court.

Such tools, in todays era of social media and expert practices to manipulate public opinion, probably need some level of oversight or standards by the court. As mentioned previously here, some people today are disturbingly susceptible to propaganda and conspiracy theories.
 
Cool Cats said:
I don't think surveys are common at all, never seen them done on any change of venue requests on any case I have followed.

It is expensive for one thing and not necessary most of the time . Appears to be rare actually.... 2 Cents
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Well I have seen them used. In multiple cases.

Here is information from the University of North Carolina. It is suggested one way to provide evidentiary support for a change of venue request is through

"Statistically significant polls or surveys on public knowledge of and opinions about the crime and the defendant. Counsel will probably have to retain an expert to conduct and interpret such polls."

https://defendermanuals.sog.unc.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/11.3 Change of Venue.pdf

I can't provide an MSM account of how often surveys are used. But nothing during the recent hearing for this case suggested using surveys to support a change of venue request was rare or unusual. The arguments made weren't about that so far as I could tell.

Here are a few well-known cases where surveys were used.

Crittenden lawyer says change of venue survey ‘favorable’ to defense

https://news.wttw.com/2018/07/10/van-dyke-case-defense-expert-believes-change-venue-necessary

Tsarnaev Trial

Judge hears arguments for change of venue in Daybell trial

And, of course, a survey was used to support moving Scott Peterson's trial. (Those results may have been partially fabricated by students helping to gather data. But that was discovered later.)

www.cbsnews.com

Probe Into Suspect Laci Venue Data

Students Tell Paper They Falsified Surveys Used To Get Trial Moved
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

MOO
 
NCWatcher said:
Well I have seen them used. In multiple cases.

Here is information from the University of North Carolina. It is suggested one way to provide evidentiary support for a change of venue request is through

"Statistically significant polls or surveys on public knowledge of and opinions about the crime and the defendant. Counsel will probably have to retain an expert to conduct and interpret such polls."

https://defendermanuals.sog.unc.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/11.3 Change of Venue.pdf

I can't provide an MSM account of how often surveys are used. But nothing during the recent hearing for this case suggested using surveys to support a change of venue request was rare or unusual. The arguments made weren't about that so far as I could tell.

Here are a few well-known cases where surveys were used.

Crittenden lawyer says change of venue survey ‘favorable’ to defense

https://news.wttw.com/2018/07/10/van-dyke-case-defense-expert-believes-change-venue-necessary

Tsarnaev Trial

Judge hears arguments for change of venue in Daybell trial

And, of course, a survey was used to support moving Scott Peterson's trial. (Those results may have been partially fabricated by students helping to gather data. But that was discovered later.)

www.cbsnews.com

Probe Into Suspect Laci Venue Data

Students Tell Paper They Falsified Surveys Used To Get Trial Moved
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

MOO
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Funny, I just happenned to read Judge's finding on Defense Motion for Change of Venue in the Chad Daybell case (it was successful) whichis currently at trial. I could be wrong but I don't think Defense commissioned a public survey and certainly not a phone survey and/or poll (apologies as I'm somewhat unfamiliar with terminology in this area), I was reading the judge's findings to see if the D had commissioned a survey because of recent discussion re Kohberger D's strategy.

 
jepop said:
Funny, I just happenned to read Judge's finding on Defense Motion for Change of Venue in the Chad Daybell case (it was successful) whichis currently at trial. I could be wrong but I don't think Defense commissioned a public survey and certainly not a phone survey and/or poll (apologies as I'm somewhat unfamiliar with terminology in this area), I was reading the judge's findings to see if the D had commissioned a survey because of recent discussion re Kohberger D's strategy.

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Yup. Change of venue requests are common but not hiring a survey company which can be expensive and not every defendant is so pampered with state $$$ that they can afford this.

2 Cents
 
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Cool Cats said:
Why would she look over her shoulder if he is acquitted? If he is acquitted he would owe it to her.

If he is found guilty he will be behind bars the rest of his life.

I have never heard of murderers going after their defense attorneys except in the mafia.
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Because, if he is an obsessed stalker he might have developed an unhealthy attachment to her or think she likes him back. BK is not mafia, this is an obsessive guy.
 
jepop said:
Funny, I just happenned to read Judge's finding on Defense Motion for Change of Venue in the Chad Daybell case (it was successful) whichis currently at trial. I could be wrong but I don't think Defense commissioned a public survey and certainly not a phone survey and/or poll (apologies as I'm somewhat unfamiliar with terminology in this area), I was reading the judge's findings to see if the D had commissioned a survey because of recent discussion re Kohberger D's strategy.

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Lots of reports said a survey was used. And I'm not sure how if one was used, it wouldn't have been a survey of the public? I think the survey may have been done for both Lori and Chad at the same time.

Change of venue hearing in Daybell case: ‘The amount of attention has been overwhelming’

"So far in the trial, Daybell’s lawyer, John Prior, submitted a survey showing people’s leanings on the Daybell case."

"Prosecutor Rob Wood objected, stating the poll reviewed more counties than just Fremont and that it wasn’t conducted impartially. The judge overruled the objection and allowed the survey into evidence."

"The survey showed 82.4 percent believed Daybell and his wife were guilty, while only one person said they were innocent, and 3.4 percent said they were innocent until proven guilty. The witness, David Bryant, said there was about a 5.8 percent margin of error."

Anyway, I don't think commissioning a survey is rare when asking for a change of venue. It appears one was used here and in the other well-known case links I posted.
MOO
 
Swansee said:
@wendy44
Yes, since the original alibi statement, the defense has claimed BK was out driving prior to midnight. The PCA never states where the phone was pinging prior to 2:42, so we don't know if prior pings were also in the same location or elsewhere.
The thing about the "cellular resources providing coverage to his residence" phrase is that we don't actually know how wide that cone is. How vast of an area did those cellular resources provide coverage to? This is still unknown by us the public.
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I think it doesn't really matter where it was pinging prior to 2:42am. The primary point is that the pings of the phone are matching up with the video of the white Elantra they believe to be his. He might have been driving around prior to midnight, turned his phone off or not, but his phone was pinging in the areas where the white Elantra was captured, in a natural progression in the appropriate amount of time for it to be the same Elantra captured without a front plate a mile from the crime scene. The pings support that the white Elantra is his. This is why they went on to show that the next day BK was actually seen on camera exiting the white Elantra with the phone pinging at that same location. JMO
 
Cool Cats said:
Yup. Change of venue requests are common but not hiring a survey company which can be expensive and not every defendant is so pampered with state $$$ that they can afford this.

2 Cents
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For sure. Also why risk tainting potential jury member/pool, small as that risk may be. Regardless of the amount of media and potentially prejudicial publicity already out there,when a non dissemination order is active imo neither the D or P should risk even the perception of contributing further moo. I think the issues raised by @Betty P regarding judicial oversight of surveys/questions (especially those done via telephone) are relevant too.moo
 
NCWatcher said:
Lots of reports said a survey was used. And I'm not sure how if one was used, it wouldn't have been a survey of the public? I think the survey may have been done for both Lori and Chad at the same time.

Change of venue hearing in Daybell case: ‘The amount of attention has been overwhelming’

"So far in the trial, Daybell’s lawyer, John Prior, submitted a survey showing people’s leanings on the Daybell case."

"Prosecutor Rob Wood objected, stating the poll reviewed more counties than just Fremont and that it wasn’t conducted impartially. The judge overruled the objection and allowed the survey into evidence."

"The survey showed 82.4 percent believed Daybell and his wife were guilty, while only one person said they were innocent, and 3.4 percent said they were innocent until proven guilty. The witness, David Bryant, said there was about a 5.8 percent margin of error."

Anyway, I don't think commissioning a survey is rare when asking for a change of venue. It appears one was used here and in the other well-known case links I posted.
MOO
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No worries. My bad on Daybell. For some reason I thought I read a survey hadn't been used for Daybell and didn't check. I must have been thinking of a diff case I read recently.
 
wendy44 said:
I think it doesn't really matter where it was pinging prior to 2:42am. The primary point is that the pings of the phone are matching up with the video of the white Elantra they believe to be his. He might have been driving around prior to midnight, turned his phone off or not, but his phone was pinging in the areas where the white Elantra was captured, in a natural progression in the appropriate amount of time for it to be the same Elantra captured without a front plate a mile from the crime scene. The pings support that the white Elantra is his. This is why they went on to show that the next day BK was actually seen on camera exiting the white Elantra with the phone pinging at that same location. JMO
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Exactly this.
ETA And P can present their expert cast evidence re pre 2.42am pings if Kohberger had his phone on, for e.g., between midnight and 2.42am on the 13th moo. It's not as if the P don't have potential phone forensics and location/ping analysis for earlier in the night imo.
 
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Swansee said:
Speculation and hypotheticals ahead:
If somehow it really does turn out that BK is innocent, and just truly the unluckiest man alive. I don't mean getting off on a technicality, I mean if the State's evidence falls apart at trial, or worse, and it turns out BK really didn't do it.
Then what?
With the house destroyed and all this time elapsed... Would the State have to start over and consider other options? Would the case just go cold?
I don't follow enough true crime to know: What typically happens if trial reveals that the accused is innocent?
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I know the house was an ugly eye-sore and a reminder of a brutal crime, but I wish they kept it standing until the trial ended. Having a juror walk through a physical house feels much different than looking at a drawing or watching a video.
 
x_files said:
Because, if he is an obsessed stalker he might have developed an unhealthy attachment to her or think she likes him back. BK is not mafia, this is an obsessive guy.
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Have to admit, this thought has crossed my mind and I wonder if it ever crosses AT's. I think the the D's declaration that their team believe in BK's innocence at 10th April hearing, forceably articulated by Mammoth during summing up, was strategic' moo. Ofcourse BK is presumed innocent until the jury comes back with a decision at trial, but for D team to publicly declare they believe in his innocence is subtly different than reiterating he is presumed innocent. Presumed does not equal is.moo
 
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