4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

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A concern with touch DNA as with all DNA is degrading.

When a DNA sample is left for days or weeks in the sun, rain, wind, etc.... It can degrade.

Let me make this clear....

BK's snap DNA was preserved on the snap and found immediately inside. This snap DNA was not found outside degrading over days or weeks in rough weather conditions.
 
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Have you ever heard the saying, that the more you know, the more questions you have??? I think that is those of us here... those in the true crime community.

However, the people on the jury are NOT (generally) going to be people like us who may follow true crime and think of all the instances where there is real proof versus innuendo and circumstantial evidence.

I think the jury will be much more like regular people and will use logic and common sense to see if they believe the facts brought out in the trial.

To me, I need to step back and ask, "What would a jury of our peers conclude from the evidence we already know about?"

I think BK is guilty and this is more or less a slam dunk when all the evidence is presented at the trial to regular jurors... that BK is the ONLY PERSON on this planet that could have killed these students.

I have posted links to this before....the single most important piece of evidence to a jury is DNA evidence.

Anne Taylor does not even dispute this is BK's DNA, all she can do is what she and all defense attorneys do...try to get the DNA ruled inadmissible before the jury.
 
If BK innocently touched the sheath in a store (or a buddy's house, or whatever), his DNA would be in multiple places on the outside of the sheath, not merely in a minute crevice in the snap.

As would the DNA of all other shoppers who touched it, as well as the store clerk who put it out on display, and the warehouse employee who took it out of the box, etc etc ad nauseum.

But a sheath that has been wiped clean with only one person's DNA remaining only in the crevice? Not an innocuous shopping experience IMO.

Also, I know we've moved on from this but anyone trying to frame BK by planting his DNA would plant it on the surface where it could be easily found by LE -- not only in a crevice where LE might well have overlooked it.

MOO
Such a good reminder, it was a single source DNA match to BK.

JMO
 
Hmmmm... it appears the DNA they have very well could be "touch DNA."

From KREM2 News:
"Based on the affidavit in this case, it looks like touch DNA is what they had to work with. That's just skin cells."

A bit of research reveals that touch DNA is controversial evidence, and National Review explains how previous convictions have been overturned as a result:

"Trace amounts of DNA on a knife and bra clasp in 2007 were key to American student Amanda Knox’s prosecution and conviction on charges of murdering her roommate in Italy. But when American forensic expert Dr. Greg Hampikian and others exposed contamination and interpretation and replicability/reliability problems with the DNA evidence, the Italian Supreme Court threw out the convictions eight years after the killing."

This is the first time I've heard the term "touch DNA," so I had to do some research to learn what it was all about and whether the DNA, in this case, qualifies as touch DNA.

The National Review article is interesting. If AT is on her game—and she strikes me as someone who's usually on her game—she may challenge the touch DNA evidence. There appears to be precedent for doing so.

This case gets more interesting all the time.

Notice that the KREM reporter has no clue that ALL cells are EQUALLY sources of DNA. That minimizing and meaningless (in science) word "just" is just plain silly.

This is like saying "We found fingerprints matching the suspect, but it was JUST fingerprnts, so well, what to think? what to do?"

The answer is that we know how fingers are formed and why there are fingerprints and that no two finger-print bearing creatures (ourselves, chimps, gorillas, orangutans) have identical sensory ridges (fingerprints).

Same with DNA. It doesn't matter whether it's a skin cell or a lung cell or a hair follicle cell...it's ALL the same system. Touch DNA isn't usually blood because we don't leak blood a lot. It can be epithelial (a general category that includes skin but also many other parts of the body - particularly assaulted by the COVID virus as epithelial cells are protection against many things - and essential to human life).

They are indeed the main source of most forensic DNA. Good old epithelial cells (including ones shed from the epithelial cells in the lungs through breathing - a forensic fact that is becoming more and more workable). Someday, criminals may well find their epithelial cells collected from objects with less concentration of DNA than the knife snap in this case. it's already possible. Here's an article on how cells from the lungs, exhaled, will help us with early diagnosis of lung cancer:


Naturally the collection technique here is medical and lab-based, but the forensic uses are just around the corner.

So yeah. "Touch DNA" can give us evidence of whether there is cancer in a person's lungs. A complete catalog of the genetics of cancer is of course well underway in terms of compilation. Nearly every single tumor removed (whether malignant or benign) at university medical centers is catalogued and studied. At less well funded schools, they may focus just on the malignant ones, but in general, at big universities like Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Baylor, UCLA, Stanford...it's every single tumor (and the relationship between benign tumors and malignant ones is coming under very close scrutiny, to allow better decision making by patients and doctors).

Epithelial DNA is the gold standard of non-invasive human DNA collection. We leave it EVERYWHERE we go. But often (as in the case of the sheath), it needs to collect in grooves or obvious places (door handles, kleenex) in order to provide enough for forensic sample. Amplification techniques are on their way, though.
 
There is nothing wrong with touch DNA. Touch DNA are skin cells we leave behind rather than LE getting our DNA from our blood or spit or vomit or sweat, etc...

BK would have put alot of pressure on the snap and he left a good DNA sample that matches his cheek swab which is 5.37 Octillion times likely to be BK's DNA.

Touch DNA has solved alot of murders, got alot of bad people off the streets.

As I understand it---touch DNA is controversial because it can be transfered indirectly, meaning a person who never touched an item can still have their DNA present on it.

Defense attorneys have successfully argued against its admittance in cases such as the Daniel Holtzclaw case and the Timothy M. case.

It's not that the testing of touch DNA is inaccurate--it's still highly accurate. The issue is that there is the chance that the DNA was deposited innocuously at a different time, which leads to false positives.

For example, if Person A shakes hands with Person B, and Person B later touches an object, Person A's DNA might be found on that object even though they never directly touched it. See (Bruckheim & Patel).

Given that controversy, what I previously thought would be a slam dunk in this case may not be. That is, of course, if the DNA really is touch DNA and not DNA from saliva or blood. It's being reported as touch DNA but I haven't read LE or any of the attorneys confirming that.
 
If BK innocently touched the sheath in a store (or a buddy's house, or whatever), his DNA would be in multiple places on the outside of the sheath, not merely in a minute crevice in the snap.

As would the DNA of all other shoppers who touched it, as well as the store clerk who put it out on display, and the warehouse employee who took it out of the box, etc etc ad nauseum.

But a sheath that has been wiped clean with only one person's DNA remaining only in the crevice? Not an innocuous shopping experience IMO.

Also, I know we've moved on from this but anyone trying to frame BK by planting his DNA would plant it on the surface where it could be easily found by LE -- not only in a crevice where LE might well have overlooked it.

MOO
I think BK is the killer, but in your scenario, where someone wiped the sheath clean -- they missed BK's DNA in the minute crevice of the snap.

If BK wiped the sheath -- he missed it. If someone else wiped the sheath -- they missed it.

I like your thinking that if someone was trying to frame BK, they would have planted the DNA in a more obvious spot. That seems likely.
 
As I understand it---touch DNA is controversial because it can be transfered indirectly, meaning a person who never touched an item can still have their DNA present on it.

Defense attorneys have successfully argued against its admittance in cases such as the Daniel Holtzclaw case and the Timothy M. case.

It's not that the testing of touch DNA is inaccurate--it's still highly accurate. The issue is that there is the chance that the DNA was deposited innocuously at a different time, which leads to false positives.

For example, if Person A shakes hands with Person B, and Person B later touches an object, Person A's DNA might be found on that object even though they never directly touched it. See (Bruckheim & Patel).

Given that controversy, what I previously thought would be a slam dunk in this case may not be. That is, of course, if the DNA really is touch DNA and not DNA from saliva or blood. It's being reported as touch DNA but I haven't read LE or any of the attorneys confirming that.

There is no problem with touch DNA. There is no indication that the snap DNA was degraded. The snap DNA matches the cheek swab. No problem with it.

Some cases may have had problems with their touch DNA samples but this is - not the case here.

2 Cents
 
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There is no problem with touch DNA. There is no indication that the snap DNA was degraded. The snap DNA matches the cheek swab. No problem with it.

Some cases may have had problems with their touch DNA samples but this is - not the case here.

2 Cents
I don't think anyone has suggested the DNA was degraded.
 
I get that the DNA from the sheath is a match to the DNA from the swab taken from BK.

How does the GG DNA matching work. There were two “close matches”- one was BK’s father. How did they get his name vs. BK’s name? They both share the same surname so why didn’t it show as a close match to BK? Is this to do with where in the family tree the DNA came from? So for example BK’s uncle (Dad’s brother- I don’t even know if he has one, but theoretically) submits DNA, is this a “close match” through GG to BK’s father but not BK directly?

I’m just struggling to understand how they narrow it down among all the potential male relatives.
So these are actually two separate parts of the investigation. There was the Investigative Genetic Genealogy/IGG and there was the testing of the dna on the sheath to dna found in the family's trash in PA that ultimately showed that the dna in trash was a paternal match to the dna on the sheath (BK's father).

In the IGG, we don't really know about the matches--who they were or how close they were. The dna profile from the sheath was loaded into the program and it produced family matches. I work with genetic genealogy (solely as an amateur helping people with their family trees) so I'm pretty familiar with the process. You take those matches and start building a family tree using publicly available records and social media. A second cousin match (sharing grandparents) would be considered an extremely close family match. Usually you start with 3rd or 4th cousins. You take your matches and build your tree backwards in time and find out where all your matches converge into two people who married and had kids. The two people where all the matches came from. Then you build the tree forwards in time to the present day, filling in all the people who are in the tree but not in the dna matches. I hope that makes sense.

Then you look at that family tree and start looking at everyone who could potentially fit your suspect. BK would have been in that tree somewhere and the more they looked at him, the more they would be interested in him. This is where they start having names to work with.

And this is where the matching to BK's father comes in. They have the dna from the sheath, they have narrowed down the suspect pool and they want to retrieve BK's dna to test against the sheath. They seize the trash and get a match to his dad. Testing the family trash was a culmination of all the aspects of the investigation that were coming together that gave them BK as a suspect, including the video and phone evidence. I hope that makes sense, just ask if it doesn't.
 
I get that the DNA from the sheath is a match to the DNA from the swab taken from BK.

How does the GG DNA matching work. There were two “close matches”- one was BK’s father. How did they get his name vs. BK’s name? They both share the same surname so why didn’t it show as a close match to BK? Is this to do with where in the family tree the DNA came from? So for example BK’s uncle (Dad’s brother- I don’t even know if he has one, but theoretically) submits DNA, is this a “close match” through GG to BK’s father but not BK directly?

I’m just struggling to understand how they narrow it down among all the potential male relatives.
So, just to give an example of how this would work. The profile from the dna on the sheath is entered into the system being used by the investigators. It produces a list of matches.

Using public databases, you start building out the family trees of these matches. You're working backwards, to their grandparents, great grandparents, etc. You start to see that your matches all converge to one particular couple "EK" and "KH". These are BK's 2nd great grandparents but of course you don't know that yet. All your matches are related to either "EK"'s side of the family or "KH"'s side of the family. Now you know that your dna from the sheath is someone who descends from this couple. So you start working forwards and building out "EK" and "KH"'s family tree. Again, from public databases--census records, birth and death records, obituaries, social media, etc. "EK" and "KH" had 6 children--you build out each of their family trees, and so on and so on. Eventually you have the tree as much as you can build it out--90 plus percent of it is not matches, just investigative work. And then you start looking at everyone in that tree and narrowing it down to possible suspects and BK was surely on that list.
 
As I understand it---touch DNA is controversial because it can be transfered indirectly, meaning a person who never touched an item can still have their DNA present on it.

Defense attorneys have successfully argued against its admittance in cases such as the Daniel Holtzclaw case and the Timothy M. case.

It's not that the testing of touch DNA is inaccurate--it's still highly accurate. The issue is that there is the chance that the DNA was deposited innocuously at a different time, which leads to false positives.

For example, if Person A shakes hands with Person B, and Person B later touches an object, Person A's DNA might be found on that object even though they never directly touched it. See (Bruckheim & Patel).

Given that controversy, what I previously thought would be a slam dunk in this case may not be. That is, of course, if the DNA really is touch DNA and not DNA from saliva or blood. It's being reported as touch DNA but I haven't read LE or any of the attorneys confirming that.

Yes - but the possibility that the second person leaves no DNA is vanishingly small. That's why the initial report says "single source" DNA (as opposed to, say, the glove box DNA in the Morphew case - which contained partial profiles of two or more different people).

That's why the SNP's are studied - these are the places where we vary. The chances of even siblings having the same betaglobin marker + same neuregulin marker are about 25%. For those two siblings to share a third unusual (highly variable marker) such as for proline dehydrogenase is much smaller. And so on. Each time we add a locus that has 400-1000 alleles, we have the possibility of many individuals who are distinct.

It would be very unlikely for there to be blood on the sheath and not have it mentioned in the same sentences as we already have seen for the DNA. And it doesn't matter - except that if there were blood, we would expect an injury on BK, which so far, seems not to be the case.

Since the DNA was on the use point of a tool, and we know that humans use their hands and fingers to operate such items, it would highly surprising if it were not epithelial DNA. As someone who reads a lot of forensic DNA research, I'd say it almost goes without saying in the forensic community that epithelial cells are the major source of forensic DNA.

If the profile had been mixed (some other man + Kohberger) then yes, the defense could argue that he shook hands with someone at a knife shot who then immediately grabbed a sheath (that had been cleaned off for some reason) and now there would be TWO people's DNA there. Knife shop people do not usually wear gloves, IME.

My best guess is that while BK did try to clean up the knife sheath, he had used that snap many times and each time, another few layers of epithelial cells were deposited. He might even have been able to wipe off or destroy the upper layers. But, just as epithelial cells do on our bodies, they do layer nicely and protect each other - the bottom layers, pushed down by the use and reused of the snap - had enough for several DNA samples.

ALL of which belonged to BK.

I've mentioned before that we suit up in the lab and in crime scenes to avoid our own epithelial DNA from being deposited or BREATHED onto the objects.

So if we allege that some other person collected and deposited BK's DNA deep inside the snap, they had to have decided for some reason to use DNA as a foil in an elaborate crime set-up. While suited up much like an astronaut.

And what tools would they need to get the DNA from Kohberger and onto the sheath? Well, only tools that one would find in a lab. Also sterile or even more stranger DNA would be found. There's no way to know, after a handshake, just where the other person's DNA Is - on your hands (gloved hands in this case). BK himself seems way too particular and into crime scene analysis to be NOT wearing gloves - but the store clerk is? Doesn't pass Occam's razor IMO.

IMO
 
This is just my own opinion and I am not a legal expert but my scrutiny of the PCA is the fact that the entire thing is an omission of the fact that they actually identified BK through a potentially (IMO likely) illegal search of a private IGG database and then worked backwards to make evidence fit the suspect.

IMO I hesitate to blindly accept that everything they say in the PCA is the full truth and there are not more facts being omitted

That’s an issue for the judge to sort out but that’s my own personal thoughts.
I’m sorry to be belatedly responding when I’ve not yet caught up, so this may have already been addressed. In which case, just scroll & roll, please.

I fear sounding like a broken record, but the purpose of the PCA is to provide a judge with enough evidence to establish probable cause to issue an arrest warrant, MOO.

There’s legal strategy & expertise involved in drafting a PCA. One of the reasons this is so important is to protect the ongoing investigation. Securing an arrest warrant is an important but early step in the eventual trial process, MOO.

Since PCAs, at least in Idaho, are often made public, it’s in the best interest of the ongoing investigation & eventual trial process for the State to provide a judge with sufficient evidence to secure an arrest warrant without giving away the store, so to speak, & jeopardizing the ongoing investigation, MOO.

It’s perfectly normal, MOO, for PCAs to be drafted with just enough detail to convince the judge the probable cause bar has been met to issue an arrest warrant and to not include any more than that. Personally, I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of detail in BK’s PCA because it tells me they have so much more than was included in that PCA.

As always, all of the above is MOO.

ETA: I accidentally hit Send before finishing with the last two sentences.
 
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well, it seems possible to consider how long it takes for things to happen. About 13 days after the murders, they had info about BK's car being on student parking list and had his description and info. And eventually the cell ping info.


I doubt that they had an IGG profile narrowed down to a single name by that time. They had to send in the forensics items to the lab---they had to find that one speck of DNA on that snap, have the profile returned from the lab, and then have the FBI team begin the IGG process, which is a lengthy one. Would all that have happened within 13 days?

I believe it was all happening almost simultaneously. I think they narrowed down the IGG to a family name and then realised they already had that name on a list of suspicious subjects.

They way you describe it, they find his name by IGG AND THEN go back and make up the evidence, RE the white Elantra---I don't think that is possible, time wise. They were actively looking through all that cctv and ring footage for quite awhile before finding that footage and releasing it on Nov 23rd. I don't believe they could have had the forensics data back, with the snap DNA, put together the FBI IGG team, before the University Police Officer looked up the student parking list and found BK's car.

Sometimes an investigation is pretty straightforward forward. Different detectives in different departments are all following their leads and it comes back to the same suspect by different methods. I do believe that is what happened here.

When they found BK's vehicle on the parking permit list, they did a very general overview. If it had belonged to a female student with a little baby, who lived with her parents, they probably would have just kept it on the list but moved on. [unless she had a suspicious boyfriend w/access to the car]
I think it’s also helpful to think back & remember just how huge the investigation was & how many tips/leads LE had to work through. MOO, it’s a real testament to the high quality & dedication of all who worked through the massive quantity of evidence in this case to identify, track down, and arrest the murderer who was not a part of any of the victims’ circles & was unknown to them so quickly (even though it felt like an eternity)! Cases in which the criminal is unknown to the victim(s) are, MOO, amongst the most difficult to solve, which is another factor I think it’s important to remember.

As a frame of reference, this info comes from the MPD press release on 12/3/22:
IMG_2682.jpeg

That’s an astonishing amount of data to comb through, and we know tips & leads continued to pour in, hitting 10,000 (no typo) as referenced in this 12/19/22 MPD press release.

Anyway, I personally find it helpful to remember those facts & circumstances when thinking back about everything leading up to the identification of BK as The Suspect. As always, MOO.
 
I’m sorry to be belatedly responding when I’ve not yet caught up, so this may have already been addressed. In which case, just scroll & roll, please.

I fear sounding like a broken record, but the purpose of the PCA is to provide a judge with enough evidence to establish probable cause to issue an arrest warrant, MOO.

There’s legal strategy & expertise involved in drafting a PCA. One of the reasons this is so important is to protect the ongoing investigation. Securing an arrest warrant is an important but early step in the eventual trial process, MOO.

Since PCAs, at least in Idaho, are often made public, it’s in the best interest of the ongoing investigation & eventual trial process for the State to provide a judge with sufficient evidence to secure an arrest warrant without giving away the store, so to speak, & jeopardizing the ongoing investigation, MOO.

It’s perfectly normal, MOO, for PCAs to be drafted with just enough detail to convince the judge the probable cause bar has been met to issue an arrest warrant and to not include any more than that. Personally, I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of detail in BK’s PCA because it tells me they have so much more than was included in that PCA.

As always, all of the above is MOO.

ETA: I accidentally hit Send before finishing with the last two sentences.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I absolutely agree with your points re:disclosure - LE doesn’t want to tip their entire hand and the idea that the PCA would become public.

IMO Where it becomes a compelling legal discussion is the idea that there was an investigative process was used to identify the accused (or further narrow the search field) that isn’t mentioned in the PCA and because of that, prosecution has stated they should not be obligated to provide that information to defense and because this process is not stated in the PCA, it would not affect the warrants issued and so on. Of course we are long past that original argument and I’m not saying what is right or wrong legally. I just find it an interesting circumstance to discuss as a general topic purely on the legal side of things.

(All my opinion for general discussion purposes.)
 
Maybe, or it could just be to protect them from online harassment and threats or worse.
I mean honestly in this internet age and seeing how this case in particular seems to have people feeling passionately for one side or the other, I don't want to imagine the kind of crazy that could get unleashed on anyone connected to the case in any important way. I bet the State doesn't want anyone's mental or physical health endangered because the State made their name public.
RBBM

So very much this, only I wouldn’t limit it to “important” connection to the case.

Maybe for folks who don’t live in this area, it’s easy to forget how many completely innocent people & businesses have been harassed by those fixated on this tragedy.

For safety reasons, I won’t mention names even though they are public in MSM, but for those of us who have been here since the beginning, we can remember several sad examples. I’ll specifically reference just one: a completely innocent professor who was repeatedly accused by an unhinged TikTok psychic of being involved in the murders. These threats resulted in the school(s) the professor’s young child/children attended having to implement specific safety plans. AFAIK, the professor’s lawsuit against the TikTok psychic is still pending.

Under the best of circumstances, convincing non-professionals to testify can sometimes be difficult. I cannot imagine how terrifying it would be to be targeted by an online mob prior to testifying.

Not to belabor the point: there is a very strict non-dissemination order in this case, & just because the public doesn’t know names & details we’re curious about does not mean that info hasn’t been provided to the defense as required by ICR 16. Discovery and Inspection.

The judge — and only the judge — is responsible for resolving any accusations the defense makes about whether the State is in compliance with ICR 16 and any other applicable disclosure requirements.

As always, MOO.
 
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