4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

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CKS said:
All this DNA talk reminded me of how DNA from three other unidentified males was found at the crime scene, including on a glove found outside. Does anyone else remember hearing that? Any guesses at to why those DNA samples weren't tested? The court hearing I believe on 8/18/2023 Anne Taylor asked for the results and Thompson claimed they never did the test so there was nothing to share with her. Seems odd if you ask me? Especially since they said it was male DNA. How would they know it was male DNA if they didn't test the DNA?

I linked an article but if you google it you can easily find what I am talking about.


Bryan Kohberger's defense claims Idaho murders suspect has 'no connection' with victims
Click to expand...
JL Objection to protective order: June 22, 2023
Page 2

By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on a glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger.

I do recall BTs response during a hearing on the IGG saying something about the CODIS test did not exist, that the samples (all three) were not run through codis for eligibility reasons. So it appears LE did a test for male/female, but did not run the samples through CODIS. MOO

FAQ on CODIS and NDIS - Fbi:

18. Are there specific data requirements for the DNA records submitted to NDIS?​

Yes. There are several requirements for the DNA data submitted to NDIS:

  1. The DNA data must be generated in accordance with the FBI Director’s Quality Assurance Standards;
  2. The DNA data must be generated by a laboratory that is accredited by an approved accrediting agency;
  3. The DNA data must be generated by a laboratory that undergoes an external audit every two years to demonstrate compliance with the FBI Director’s Quality Assurance Standards;
  4. The DNA data must be one of the categories of data acceptable at NDIS, such as convicted offender, arrestee, detainee, legal, forensic (casework), unidentified human remains, missing person, or a relative of missing person;
  5. The DNA data must meet minimum CODIS Core Loci requirements for the specimen category;
  6. The DNA PCR data must be generated using PCR accepted kits; and
  7. Participating laboratories must have and follow expungement procedures in accordance with federal law.

19. What are the CODIS core loci?​

Effective January 1, 2017, the CODIS Core Loci include the following 20 loci:
  • CSF1PO
  • FGA
  • THO1
  • TPOX
  • VWA
  • D3S1358
  • D5S818
  • D7S820
  • D8S1179
  • D13S317
  • D16S539
  • D18S51
  • D21S11
  • D1S1656
  • D2S441
  • D2S1338
  • D10S1248
  • D12S391
  • D19S433
  • D22S1045

20. What are the minimum loci requirements for the STR DNA data submitted to NDIS?​

The minimum CODIS Core Loci required for submission of DNA data to NDIS vary by specimen category. Generally, the CODIS Core Loci are required for submission of convicted offender, arrestee, detainee, and legal profiles.




During one of the recent hearings (motion to compel), AJ from the state mentioned that the State facilitated testing of additional trace evidence, as requested by the D.

3:12

JMO
 
Megnut said:
A defendant always has the right to plead guilty before trial and, I suppose, at any point during a trial.

Generally a plea agreement is brokered, usually the Prosecution and the Defense getting something and giving up something in the process.

IMO the State doesn't have a reason to give up anything, they've got full confidence they can convict on full charges.

Therefore, there's nothing of value (for the State) for BK/the Defense to give.

Now, if it was a shaky case and the State needed, say, the murder weapon, or the name of (if something like this were the case) another, more involved perp, or where the bodies are (huge bargaining chip in cases with missing persons) but the State appears to have everything they need to secure a conviction without any help from BK and his side of the courtroom.

The only possible thing is the DP, whether it's on or off the table.

For whatever reason, however, I don't think AT signed on to negotiate a plea -- probably because IMO BK either isn't talking or said no (I suspect he has said a total of zero words about the crime to his attorneys. BK's rich conversations happen only in his head IMO.). She came to play ball, intent on making the State hit hard. She don't let them convict with ease.

She seems to be borrowing from the new defense manual -- play to the public. Because that's where the future jury sits.

It'll be a fiery trial, no doubt, but IMO the State has the goods.

When they lay it all out, end to end, at trial, BK will be staring at a home video, a reel of every terrible mistake he made that day.

JMO
Click to expand...

Trials are for proving a defendant guilty so if the defendant admits they are guilty no trial is necessary.

Would make no sense for BK's defense to say he will plead guilty to LWOP if you drop the death specifications but the prosecution says no, we will put him through a useless trial anyway.

With only the most unusual circumstances, this never happens.

Prosecutors drop the DP and the defendant pleads guilty in open court and at sentencing there are victim impact statements and a LWOP sentence.

Anything is always possible but what the prosecution wants, the whole point, IS TO GET A GUILTY VERDICT.

If BK is willing to do this for them then no way will they not do it .... in my opinion.

2 Cents
 
Chloegirl said:
Not on the glove, but they didn't meet testing guidelines which someone else can speak to since I am not an expert. Apparently, there's a process for what is included and what is not included and if it doesn't meet the guidelines it doesn't get tested. I assume this is not to waste resources ($$$) related to crimes but IDK. JMOO
Click to expand...

Nila Aella said:
JL Objection to protective order: June 22, 2023
Page 2

By December l7, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males’ DNA within the house where the deceased were located, and another unknown male DNA on a glove found outside the residence on November 20, 2022. To this date, the Defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles. Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohberger.

I do recall BTs response during a hearing on the IGG saying something about the CODIS test did not exist, that the samples (all three) were not run through codis for eligibility reasons. So it appears LE did a test for male/female, but did not run the samples through CODIS. MOO

FAQ on CODIS and NDIS - Fbi:

18. Are there specific data requirements for the DNA records submitted to NDIS?​

Yes. There are several requirements for the DNA data submitted to NDIS:

  1. The DNA data must be generated in accordance with the FBI Director’s Quality Assurance Standards;
  2. The DNA data must be generated by a laboratory that is accredited by an approved accrediting agency;
  3. The DNA data must be generated by a laboratory that undergoes an external audit every two years to demonstrate compliance with the FBI Director’s Quality Assurance Standards;
  4. The DNA data must be one of the categories of data acceptable at NDIS, such as convicted offender, arrestee, detainee, legal, forensic (casework), unidentified human remains, missing person, or a relative of missing person;
  5. The DNA data must meet minimum CODIS Core Loci requirements for the specimen category;
  6. The DNA PCR data must be generated using PCR accepted kits; and
  7. Participating laboratories must have and follow expungement procedures in accordance with federal law.

19. What are the CODIS core loci?​

Effective January 1, 2017, the CODIS Core Loci include the following 20 loci:
  • CSF1PO
  • FGA
  • THO1
  • TPOX
  • VWA
  • D3S1358
  • D5S818
  • D7S820
  • D8S1179
  • D13S317
  • D16S539
  • D18S51
  • D21S11
  • D1S1656
  • D2S441
  • D2S1338
  • D10S1248
  • D12S391
  • D19S433
  • D22S1045

20. What are the minimum loci requirements for the STR DNA data submitted to NDIS?​

The minimum CODIS Core Loci required for submission of DNA data to NDIS vary by specimen category. Generally, the CODIS Core Loci are required for submission of convicted offender, arrestee, detainee, and legal profiles.




During one of the recent hearings (motion to compel), AJ from the state mentioned that the State facilitated testing of additional trace evidence, as requested by the D.

3:12

JMO
Click to expand...
Thank you both so much! Your posts help to more clearly define what I was hinting at regarding epithelial cells versus other forms of DNA. Mainly that there is a criteria for testing, a threshold of sorts. Also that epithelial cells would fall within the guideline but perhaps "touch DNA" would not?

Can't help but wonder then if all it takes is a scratch to implicate someone? FWIW I am not saying who is or is not guilty, just that aside from the sheath it's incredibly circumstantial. IMHO JMO.
 
I think all of Idaho wants justice in the deaths of these four young people. The cost is heavy at all levels, but Idaho is a state that actually wants to use the DP option and this is obviously a DP case. It also has no insanity plea.

They are not going to let the defendant plead out, IMO. And I don't think it's possible to plead guilty and ask for the DP - but IANAL (I am not a lawyer).

DNA from one person transferred by another is going to have both person's DNA in the mix. Every time we breathe, we exhale our own DNA. So unless someone wants to claim that one of the best forensic labs in the nation doesn't know what they're doing, it's single source DNA (not transfer).

IMO.
 
whiterhino said:
Thank you both so much! Your posts help to more clearly define what I was hinting at regarding epithelial cells versus other forms of DNA. Mainly that there is a criteria for testing, a threshold of sorts. Also that epithelial cells would fall within the guideline but perhaps "touch DNA" would not?

Can't help but wonder then if all it takes is a scratch to implicate someone? FWIW I am not saying who is or is not guilty, just that aside from the sheath it's incredibly circumstantial. IMHO JMO.
Click to expand...
Touch DNA is legitimate DNA.

LE sent their samples to be analyzed, determined it to contain a DNA profile identifying it as male DNA. Sounds like it didn't meet the threshold for running a match (through CODIS). Which means they don't know to whom it belongs.

If it comes in at trial, we'll likely learn that it was collected from a remote area, no longer of interest to LE. Like a glove they have no reason to link to the crime (perhaps it appeared after preliminary crime scene photos were taken, for instance) or from a door handle that doesn't include the entry point LE believed the intruder used.

If The Defense says it doesn't match BK, citing CODIS as their validation, does anyone know? Is Idaho a state where DNA is entered into CODIS upon arrest or only upon conviction? It's possible, if BK's DNA has not been entered into CODIS, that those samples ARE a match to him, but the match has never been processed, and the State didn't need it for probable cause, doesn't need it to prosecute. FWIW, I doubt BK left skin cells on surfaces at the house on account of great care and medical-style gloves. The only skin cells left came there with him, tucked tightly in the crevice of the sheath snap.

(My question, however, stands. Has BK's DNA been entered into CODIS?)

The significance of BK's DNA on that clasp, as single source DNA, is absolutely damning. There's no way around that.

JMO
 
CKS said:
All this DNA talk reminded me of how DNA from three other unidentified males was found at the crime scene, including on a glove found outside. Does anyone else remember hearing that? Any guesses at to why those DNA samples weren't tested? The court hearing I believe on 8/18/2023 Anne Taylor asked for the results and Thompson claimed they never did the test so there was nothing to share with her. Seems odd if you ask me? Especially since they said it was male DNA. How would they know it was male DNA if they didn't test the DNA?

I linked an article but if you google it you can easily find what I am talking about.


Bryan Kohberger's defense claims Idaho murders suspect has 'no connection' with victims
Click to expand...
Depends where found. The sheath to murder weapon is obviously the DNA related to the crime.
 
Boxer said:
Depends where found. The sheath to murder weapon is obviously the DNA related to the crime.
Click to expand...
But the sheath found at the crime hasn't been confirmed to be the sheath to the murder weapon because in the search warrant for Bryan's apartment LE listed that they were looking for a sheath.
 
Megnut said:
Touch DNA is legitimate DNA.

LE sent their samples to be analyzed, determined it to contain a DNA profile identifying it as male DNA. Sounds like it didn't meet the threshold for running a match (through CODIS). Which means they don't know to whom it belongs.

If it comes in at trial, we'll likely learn that it was collected from a remote area, no longer of interest to LE. Like a glove they have no reason to link to the crime (perhaps it appeared after preliminary crime scene photos were taken, for instance) or from a door handle that doesn't include the entry point LE believed the intruder used.

If The Defense says it doesn't match BK, citing CODIS as their validation, does anyone know? Is Idaho a state where DNA is entered into CODIS upon arrest or only upon conviction? It's possible, if BK's DNA has not been entered into CODIS, that those samples ARE a match to him, but the match has never been processed, and the State didn't need it for probable cause, doesn't need it to prosecute. FWIW, I doubt BK left skin cells on surfaces at the house on account of great care and medical-style gloves. The only skin cells left came there with him, tucked tightly in the crevice of the sheath snap.

(My question, however, stands. Has BK's DNA been entered into CODIS?)

The significance of BK's DNA on that clasp, as single source DNA, is absolutely damning. There's no way around that.

JMO
Click to expand...
The purpose of my other post was mainly to point out how difficult it would be to frame BK for those who have played Devils Advocate in the past.

There was another poster who had suggested that DNA can be transferred and I was trying to explain that it takes more than just touching an object and "transferring" some cells. Like I also said, it would take essentially nicking someone in order to get their cells onto an object such as the sheath. Then to "plant" it there in an attempt to frame someone else. Not to mention everything else that aligns which makes it easy to conclude that BK is the perpetrator.

I thought the people within the housemates immediate circle had volunteered DNA in order to be ruled out early on?
 
Megnut said:
Touch DNA is legitimate DNA.

LE sent their samples to be analyzed, determined it to contain a DNA profile identifying it as male DNA. Sounds like it didn't meet the threshold for running a match (through CODIS). Which means they don't know to whom it belongs.

If it comes in at trial, we'll likely learn that it was collected from a remote area, no longer of interest to LE. Like a glove they have no reason to link to the crime (perhaps it appeared after preliminary crime scene photos were taken, for instance) or from a door handle that doesn't include the entry point LE believed the intruder used.

If The Defense says it doesn't match BK, citing CODIS as their validation, does anyone know? Is Idaho a state where DNA is entered into CODIS upon arrest or only upon conviction? It's possible, if BK's DNA has not been entered into CODIS, that those samples ARE a match to him, but the match has never been processed, and the State didn't need it for probable cause, doesn't need it to prosecute. FWIW, I doubt BK left skin cells on surfaces at the house on account of great care and medical-style gloves. The only skin cells left came there with him, tucked tightly in the crevice of the sheath snap.

(My question, however, stands. Has BK's DNA been entered into CODIS?)

The significance of BK's DNA on that clasp, as single source DNA, is absolutely damning. There's no way around that.

JMO
Click to expand...

Quote
(My question, however, stands. Has BK's DNA been entered into CODIS?)

Yes.

The skin cells found on the sheath snap were found to contain a person's DNA profile but the problem was that LE didn't know the person's name.

So, as most LE departments do, they ran it though CODIS hoping to find a match.
No match...but whose DNA is this?

Next step was to get a private lab specializing in Genetic Geneology to search family trees and build DNA profiles to find relatives who matched some of the sheath DNA.

BK's relatives matched some of the sheath DNA.

To narrow it down to BK, who they suspected, investigators were able to get his dad's DNA from the trash. This trash DNA along with the sheath DNA showed the father-son connection.

Lastly, the cheek swab of BK after his arrest matched the DNA on the sheath. The DNA was 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Kohberger's than a random person from the general population.

www.nbcnews.com

Genetic genealogy used to link suspect in Idaho slayings to crime scene, prosecutors say

DNA found on a knife sheath was at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Kohberger’s than that of an unrelated member of the public, prosecutors said in a court filing last week.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
Last edited:
Cool Cats said:
Quote
(My question, however, stands. Has BK's DNA been entered into CODIS?)

Yes.

The skin cells found on the sheath snap were found to contain a person's DNA profile but the problem was that LE didn't know the person's name.

So, as most LE departments do, they ran it though CODIS hoping to find a match.
No match...but whose DNA is this?

Next step was to get a private lab specializing in Genetic Geneology to search family trees and build DNA profiles to find relatives who matched some of the sheath DNA.

BK's relatives matched some of the sheath DNA.

To narrow it down to BK, who they suspected, investigators were able to get his dad's DNA from the trash. This trash DNA along with the sheath DNA showed the father-son connection.

Lastly, the cheek swab of BK after his arrest matched the DNA on the sheath. The DNA was 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Kohberger's than a random person from the general population.

www.nbcnews.com

Genetic genealogy used to link suspect in Idaho slayings to crime scene, prosecutors say

DNA found on a knife sheath was at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Kohberger’s than that of an unrelated member of the public, prosecutors said in a court filing last week.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, but I interpreted Megnut’s question as asking whether the STR profile generated from the sample obtained directly from BK (swab taken following arrest) was in CODIS.

I believe the answer to that is no. From the article below, “In Idaho, the CODIS database includes DNA from convicted felons and evidence from other crime scenes, he told the paper.”

‘He’ in that sentence is Matthew Gamette, the director of the Idaho State Police Forensic Services.

That reads to me like Idaho is only able to enter convicted offenders into the database, not arrestees, so BK himself would not be in the database at this point.

nypost.com

Idaho student murders’ investigators likely comparing DNA evidence to FBI database

Authorities investigating the murders of four University of Idaho students are likely using forensic genetic genealogy – by comparing DNA evidence to genealogical family databases, an expert said i…
nypost.com nypost.com
 
whiterhino said:
The purpose of my other post was mainly to point out how difficult it would be to frame BK for those who have played Devils Advocate in the past.

There was another poster who had suggested that DNA can be transferred and I was trying to explain that it takes more than just touching an object and "transferring" some cells. Like I also said, it would take essentially nicking someone in order to get their cells onto an object such as the sheath. Then to "plant" it there in an attempt to frame someone else. Not to mention everything else that aligns which makes it easy to conclude that BK is the perpetrator.

I thought the people within the housemates immediate circle had volunteered DNA in order to be ruled out early on?
Click to expand...

And, trials are all about the evidence presented to juries.

To get up in front of a jury and say that maybe someone planted BK's DNA is not enough...the defense would have to show the jury evidence that actually supports this.

Yes they took DNA samples from people who hung around the housemates, a variety of people including their classmates. Also, Steve Goncalves said he made guys lift up their shirts to see if there were defensive scratch marks on them....not sure where he did this at but it had nothing to do with the actual LE investigation.

Police were investigating many various possible suspects. Many of them provided DNA," Logsdon writes. "At least one had his DNA surreptitiously taken from discarded cigarette. Many also had their phones taken and downloaded."

Through the first two weeks of December, investigators put some of their focus on classmates of the victims; they also widened the search to examine a man in another state who had been known to send harassing messages to women but had visited Idaho only twice in his life. They looked at a woman previously charged with assaults in the region. They looked at a man once accused of wielding a knife. They looked at sex offenders. They looked at a white supremacist. Each turned out to be a dead end.

www.nytimes.com

Inside the Hunt for the Idaho Killer (Published 2023)

After four students were stabbed to death in a house near a college campus, investigators scooped up data and forensic evidence, hoping for leads. A new DNA technique finally brought a breakthrough.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
www.insideedition.com

Bryan Kohberger Says DNA From 3 Men, Mystery Glove at Murder Scene

Kohberger and his lawyer filed this objection because they are seeking a detailed breakdown of how genetic genealogy was utilized to help the FBI initially identify Kohberger as a person of interest in the case.
www.insideedition.com www.insideedition.com
 
Last edited:
Jber said:
I could be wrong, but I interpreted Megnut’s question as asking whether the STR profile generated from the sample obtained directly from BK (swab taken following arrest) was in CODIS.

I believe the answer to that is no. From the article below, “In Idaho, the CODIS database includes DNA from convicted felons and evidence from other crime scenes, he told the paper.”

‘He’ in that sentence is Matthew Gamette, the director of the Idaho State Police Forensic Services.

That reads to me like Idaho is only able to enter convicted offenders into the database, not arrestees, so BK himself would not be in the database at this point.

nypost.com

Idaho student murders’ investigators likely comparing DNA evidence to FBI database

Authorities investigating the murders of four University of Idaho students are likely using forensic genetic genealogy – by comparing DNA evidence to genealogical family databases, an expert said i…
nypost.com nypost.com
Click to expand...

Yup. I see zero reason for them to have run the CODIS data base on BK's cheek swab.

They already used CODIS and it was because they needed a name to go with their DNA. When BK's cheek swab was a 5.37 octillion match they then had the name they were looking for, thus, rendering the need for CODIS obsolete.

They tested the 3 unknown male DNA against BK's DNA and it did not match BK so no reason to run CODIS. They would have run CODIS if they needed to but they already had what they needed. They were focused on the sheath DNA....I am only guessing as to why the 3 male DNAs were not run through the CODIS data base.

2 Cents
 
Last edited:
Jber said:
I could be wrong, but I interpreted Megnut’s question as asking whether the STR profile generated from the sample obtained directly from BK (swab taken following arrest) was in CODIS.

I believe the answer to that is no. From the article below, “In Idaho, the CODIS database includes DNA from convicted felons and evidence from other crime scenes, he told the paper.”

‘He’ in that sentence is Matthew Gamette, the director of the Idaho State Police Forensic Services.

That reads to me like Idaho is only able to enter convicted offenders into the database, not arrestees, so BK himself would not be in the database at this point.

nypost.com

Idaho student murders’ investigators likely comparing DNA evidence to FBI database

Authorities investigating the murders of four University of Idaho students are likely using forensic genetic genealogy – by comparing DNA evidence to genealogical family databases, an expert said i…
nypost.com nypost.com
Click to expand...
DNA was taken from the sheath and CODIS did not return a match to any known convicted persons. However the DNA turned out to be BKs DNA therefore yes, it technically WAS run through CODIS.

If BK is found guilty will his DNA be entered into whatever database CODIS uses? I have no idea what the process is tbh.
 
Cool Cats said:
And, trials are all about the evidence presented to juries.

To get up in front of a jury and say that maybe someone planted BK's DNA is not enough...the defense would have to show the jury evidence that actually supports this.

Yes they took DNA samples from people who hung around the housemates, a variety of people including their classmates. Also, Steve Goncalves said he made guys lift up their shirts to see if there were defensive scratch marks on them....not sure where he did this at but it had nothing to do with the actual LE investigation.

Police were investigating many various possible suspects. Many of them provided DNA," Logsdon writes. "At least one had his DNA surreptitiously taken from discarded cigarette. Many also had their phones taken and downloaded."

Through the first two weeks of December, investigators put some of their focus on classmates of the victims; they also widened the search to examine a man in another state who had been known to send harassing messages to women but had visited Idaho only twice in his life. They looked at a woman previously charged with assaults in the region. They looked at a man once accused of wielding a knife. They looked at sex offenders. They looked at a white supremacist. Each turned out to be a dead end.

www.nytimes.com

Inside the Hunt for the Idaho Killer (Published 2023)

After four students were stabbed to death in a house near a college campus, investigators scooped up data and forensic evidence, hoping for leads. A new DNA technique finally brought a breakthrough.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
www.insideedition.com

Bryan Kohberger Says DNA From 3 Men, Mystery Glove at Murder Scene

Kohberger and his lawyer filed this objection because they are seeking a detailed breakdown of how genetic genealogy was utilized to help the FBI initially identify Kohberger as a person of interest in the case.
www.insideedition.com www.insideedition.com
Click to expand...
RBBM JMO the doubt also has to be reasonable lol.
 
whiterhino said:
DNA was taken from the sheath and CODIS did not return a match to any known convicted persons. However the DNA turned out to be BKs DNA therefore yes, it technically WAS run through CODIS.

If BK is found guilty will his DNA be entered into whatever database CODIS uses? I have no idea what the process is tbh.
Click to expand...

BK's DNA is already in CODIS

Frequently Asked Questions on CODIS​

www.fbi.gov

CODIS and NDIS Fact Sheet | Federal Bureau of Investigation

A compilation of frequently-asked questions about the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) and the National DNA Index System (NDIS).
www.fbi.gov www.fbi.gov
 
whiterhino said:
DNA was taken from the sheath and CODIS did not return a match to any known convicted persons. However the DNA turned out to be BKs DNA therefore yes, it technically WAS run through CODIS.

If BK is found guilty will his DNA be entered into whatever database CODIS uses? I have no idea what the process is tbh.
Click to expand...
I understand the point that you and Cool Cats are making. I was just trying to answer [what I believed to be] the specific question Megnut was asking.

Yes, if BK is convicted his STR profile will be added to the database as a convicted offender.
 
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