4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

[Curiousobserver]

I agree, those descriptors fit lots of men, especially in a college town. You're also right that there has been no definitive proof that's his car. It was a white Elantra, the dates of which they changed. Originally, they said it was a 2011-2013 white Elantra, then (I believe after ID'ing Kohberger as a POI) they changed it and said it could be 2011-2016. BK's Elantra is a 2015. The original goof will come up, I expect.

The DNA is the strongest evidence they have.

MOO.

This case is not that strong. Without that DNA he is just a random guy with no connection to the victims and a pristinely clean car driving around at night in the same state where a crime occurred.

-no motive
-no murder weapon
-no forensics from his car
-no connection to the victims

If his defense gets that DNA in doubt, he could very well be a free man.

 

[Betty P]

My posts have nothing to do with setting anyone free.

It seemed to me your post that I quoted at 2:17 said there was video of him driving near the house at the time of the murder and also said the roommate identified him as being in the house that night. Perhaps that's not what you meant to say as I see you've since edited that post and modified those claims. But neither statement of the evidence in your original post was factually true IMO. It wasn't a matter of needing clarification. That's why I posted, not to "set him free."

Yes, I agree the jury will weigh the evidence.
MOO

I stand corrected. Its a video of the same make, model and approximate year of his car. It doesn't change the weight of the evidence when combined with DNA evidence.

You're probably not aware, but there's been a recent trend of defense counsel encouraging much lobbying in favor of clients on social media in the years and months leading up to a trial. It's sort of a modern day version of attorneys "trying their case in the news media". It's a popular belief by many that such activity can sometimes result in jury nullification and similar miscarriages of justice that allow dangerous people to go free. O J Simpson is just one early example of that problem.

We'll continue to be clear about the evidence.

 

[Boxer]

Is your first sentence based on the PCA? If so, isn't that whay Payne did? Find where BK potentially 'could' have been?

Touch DNA is not the same as a fingerprint. Touch DNA can be transferred from object to object. Maybe I'm wrong but you can't transfer someone else's fingerprint can you?



MOO

No you cant plant a fingerprint, nor can you plant a tiny number of cells on a snap.

 

[NCWatcher]

I stand corrected. Its a video of the same make, model and approximate year of his car. It doesn't change the weight of the evidence when combined with DNA evidence.

You're probably not aware, but there's been a recent trend of defense counsel encouraging much lobbying in favor of clients on social media in the years and months leading up to a trial. It's sort of a modern day version of attorneys "trying their case in the news media". It's a popular belief by many that such activity can sometimes result in jury nullification and similar miscarriages of justice that allow dangerous people to go free. O J Simpson is just one early example of that problem.

We'll continue to be clear about the evidence.

I'll continue to be clear about the evidence too!

 

[maskedwoman]

It will be interesting to see what happens in this case. From the families standpoint, it seems cruel to have them traveling the 300 miles to Boise, although depending on where they live it could be more or less. It's estimated to be a 6-8 week trial! Definitely an expensive burden to them. And the court will need 16 jurors, not 12, because of alternates. There are many moving pieces to this; staff, exhibits, witnesses, etc. But the most important thing of course is to protect the defendant's rights to a fair trial.
A couple things I'm thinking: bringing in jurors from a nearby county is one alternative. It's been said above that if they lived close to Moscow that they could be prejudiced against BK because of pretrial publicity. But in my 70 years I've seen how many people are ignorant of local and world wide news. It was shocking to me how the day after the deadly 35W bridge collapsed in MN, 70 miles from me, there were coworkers who didn't know! Also, having been a juror 4 times, it's a responsibility that is taken very seriously and discussed thoroughly in the jury room.
Secondly I just want to say I truly hope there is no sequestration of the jury. Jurors in the Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson case were sequestered and I feel that it seems to foster a camaraderie during a long trial, and perhaps creates a Pied Piper effect due to friendships forged.
IMO!

I am very much in favor of bring a jury to the location rather than transporting the trial, the witnesses and all the family members to another location. It's a lot less financial burden on the families, and you still get what you're really looking for from a change of venue.

 

[NCWatcher]

I am very much in favor of bring a jury to the location rather than transporting the trial, the witnesses and all the family members to another location. It's a lot less financial burden on the families, and you still get what you're really looking for from a change of venue.

Only problem is that usually means a sequestered jury like in the Anthony trial. And that seems like a big problem.
MOO

 

[Boxer]

This case is not that strong. Without that DNA he is just a random guy with no connection to the victims and a pristinely clean car driving around at night in the same state where a crime occurred.

-no motive
-no murder weapon
-no forensics from his car
-no connection to the victims

If his defense gets that DNA in doubt, he could very well be a free man.

Do you think that would be a good thing? Knowing he is guilty because BARD on the DNA, but them the DNA evidence is successfully supressed?

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Speaking strictly from a human behavior standpoint, there is no possible way I see for there to be 12 unbiased jury members in the small town of Moscow, ID. Everyone thinks they're unbiased, but we ALL have biases and when you live in the town this happened in, experience not only the aftermath of the crime in terms of fear but also in media invasion, victim support, rumors and gossip, you're going to be biased. You can say you'll block out everything you've heard ever except what happens in court, but the human body doesn't function that way. If one could just shut off all emotions and thoughts any old time they wanted, then PTSD would not be a thing.

You may get a few objective people in Moscow, either people who are new to town or people who genuinely weren't touched by the event, but no way you seat a jury of 12. No way.

MOO.

That's why they do a voir dire. Defense can challenge witnesses. I don't think it's impossible to find an unbiased jury. Unless you're saying all potential jurors will more than likely lie about their biases. JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

No, we know the surveillance video doesn't show plates, but all of the evidence piled together - as I noted and can repeat - reveals it would be very difficult for a different killer to:
duplicate his car and its travels and
cell phone location,

What does his cell phone location tell us about his connection to the crime? Can you narrow down what you mean? Last time I checked in on this case, his cell was off during the crucial hours and turned on later that morning. Is there something new about his cell phone location during the murders that makes you say that?

at the same time as the crime
his physical appearance,
all while obtaining a sample of his DNA and planting it at the crime scene.
It meets the "beyond a reasonable doubt" benchmark, JMO

While it might give some satisfaction if he's allowed to walk free, most people would be very upset that so many people will be put at risk of becoming his next victims. We have a responsibility to the public to make sure people like Kohberg are locked away, unable to victimize innocent people again.

I don't think anyone would be satisfied with a killer going free. None of the posts I've read have suggested that. Instead, what people seem to be saying is that guilty or not, this case is not BARD.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Bbm

I’m not sure why the change in years of the white car is a problem for people. Or considered a “goof.”

LE thought the car was within certain years, and when they knew more, or had better information, the years were changed.

Isn’t that how investigations are run? Different leads and information take investigators down different paths.

IMO

Because if I'm a defense attorney, I easily highlight how the change was made AFTER BK was identified as a suspect or POI and try to convince a jury that cops changed the year to fit the POI, not that they were simply "wrong" and would have changed it even if BK hadn't been ID'd as a suspect.

You have to understand, I'm saying that's what THE CASE will seem like to some. Even if everything that happened was completely above board. it will be twisted to mean something else and it looks pretty bad, IMO.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

We also know the shoe size of the attacker, and the style of shoe.

In addition to what we know, there's also going to be a lot at trial that WE don't know right now, but that LE does.

We know there have been a bunch of warrants for digital evidence, not just for his phone, but for things like his online activity, purchases, etc. I believe the circumstantial evidence we know about from the PCA is going to be supported by a whole lot of circumstantial evidence from those sources.

Circumstantial evidence isn't weak or secondary, it is the bread and butter, the strong foundation, of most cases that result in success for the prosecution at trial.

MOO

And that style of shoe wasn't found in BK's home, last I checked. Do we know BK's shoe size now? I don't remember that being revealed. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Yes, the jury will weigh that evidence, as juries do. To be clear, no one here is saying that the evidence it was his car is irrefutable. I don't know why people arguing to set him free keep misunderstanding that part. It's ok, though. We can keep repeating the clarification as long as necessary.

No one has argued to set him free that I've seen. Please don't misinterpret what some of us are saying. We're saying the case isn't strong and he very well might be set free. Frankly, I don't know if he's guilty or not, but I do know that based on the facts of the case as I understand them, it's not BARD to me.

MOO.

 

[iamshadow21]

And that style of shoe wasn't found in BK's home, last I checked. Do we know BK's shoe size now? I don't remember that being revealed. MOO

It only says a Vans type shoe in the affidavit. No size listed. But LE will know the size.

 

[GRT]

Do you think that would be a good thing? Knowing he is guilty because BARD on the DNA, but them the DNA evidence is successfully supressed?

The only "good" thing about this case -- or any murder case -- is for the killer to be brought to justice sooner rather than later.

The problem I see with this case is that the state will need to overcome some significant hurdles to get a jury conviction.

While I feel that BK is guilty and that the best evidence is the DNA, I've done a little research and discovered that touch DNA isn't on the same level as blood or bodily fluid DNA. There are experts out there who will testify that touch DNA can be transferred via a handshake. AT's smart enough to have one of those experts.

Then we have Sy Ray. He didn't just say that BK could have been elsewhere, he said the evidence he's seen is exculpatory. That's not promising. This is a guy who has testified for the prosecution in past cases. The state is going to have to be on their best game.

I know everyone wants to be optimistic about the outcome, but this could turn into a Casey Anthony/OJ Simpson case. It happens.

Some here see the evidence as a slam dunk. Others think it's not as strong as it should be. Both opinions are welcome and worth discussing. Because it's not over till it's over.

MOO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

IIRC the visually observable differences between a circa 2011 - 2016 Hyundai Elantra are virtually indistinguishable. And at least at the distance shown in the CCTV or camera / video images believed to be the suspect’s vehicle traveling at or around the time of the slayings.

This can be verified by searching images of those vehicle years. And if done, one will note that there are subtle differences in the front and some other panels on the preceding 2010 model and the subsequent 2017 model year. But as noted above, the 2011 - 2016 are appreciably similar. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

That's why they do a voir dire. Defense can challenge witnesses. I don't think it's impossible to find an unbiased jury. Unless you're saying all potential jurors will more than likely lie about their biases. JMO

It has nothing to do with lying. As I asked in the previous post, it comes down to whether or not we believe there is community trauma as a result of this case? If we do, then you need to find people unaffected by the events, rather than people traumatized by it. I sincerely doubt you can find 16 people who were unaffected in such a small pool. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It only says a Vans type shoe in the affidavit. No size listed. But LE will know the size.

We'll see what the evidence shows. But given they didn't find Vans style shoe in BK's home or any of his belongings (that I'm aware of), I don't consider that as evidence on the prosecution's side yet. MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

IIRC the visually observable differences between a circa 2011 - 2016 Hyundai Elantra are virtually indistinguishable. And at least at the distance shown in the CCTV or camera / video images believed to be the suspect’s vehicle traveling at or around the time of the slayings.

This can be verified by searching images of those vehicle years. And if done, one will note that there are subtle differences in the front and some other panels on the preceding 2010 model and the subsequent 2017 model year. But as noted above, the 2011 - 2016 are appreciably similar. MOO

Right, but that's even worse for the prosecution, in my book. If I'm a defense attorney, I'm saying "well now, why didn't you include the years 2014-2016 the first time if they're indistinguishable? There must be some reason you left it out? How do we know you weren't right the first time? Is it because no POI was driving a 2011 - 2013 model, so when you found one driving a 2015, you decided to change the years to fit the POI?"

MOO.

 

[iamshadow21]

We'll see what the evidence shows. But given they didn't find Vans style shoe in BK's home or any of his belongings (that I'm aware of), I don't consider that as evidence on the prosecution's side yet. MOO.

But if there's a digital record of him buying a Vans style shoe in the time before the attack?

There is so much information they will have that we don't, yet.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

But if there's a digital record of him buying a Vans style shoe in the time before the attack?

There is so much information they will have that we don't, yet.

MOO

Sure, if there's evidence of him buying that style shoe. But since we don't know that, I could just as easily say what if there's no evidence of him ever buying or owning that style shoe? We just don't know. I'm speaking ONLY about the information available, not the information that might come out.

MOO