4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

[Cool Cats]

I enjoy reading all the opinions. But jmo when he was arrested and every second since - he's just been stone cold silent. Some can and will say nobody knows how they will react in that type situation. Well bull. Imagine your innocent self strolling thru a mall or better yet, in the kitchen of your own home and officers surrounding you and arresting you for FOUR murders.
I cannot be alone when I say I would be screaming to the heavens and snot nose crying that absolutely no way. And after I was behind bars my friends and family would be doing it for me.

If you did not do it you would have your attorney dig up your alibi. You would have been somewhere else because you did not do it.

Yes, not everyone can prove their alibi but you would have at least video of your car at home and phone cell tower records showing your phone did not have any Moscow cell tower hits that night.

If you were sound asleep at 4:00 am at home in bed you would have something to show for this.

2 Cents

 

[wendy44]

The problem the defense is going to have with the video of the white sedan is, as always, that front license plate.

The prosecution will likely show a map of the route they believe BK took that night, with time stamps, phone records, and video of the car they allege is BK's.

There's video of a white sedan going north on Nevada St at 2:44am and BK's phone records are consistent with the movement and location of this white sedan. This hasn't been disputed by the defense at this point. He was in his car leaving his apartment around that time. The phone stops reporting around 2:47am. There is video of a white sedan the prosecution alleges to be the same vehicle around 2:53am going southeast on Stadium Way toward SR 270--the route to Moscow.

There doesn't appear to be mention of the video taken from the Floyd's in the pca so maybe they didn't have that video yet or decided not to use it in the pca. The defense references this video in their supplemental alibi response saying this vehicle is not BK's because he didn't travel east. Reading between the lines of the defense argument, there's likely video of a white sedan traveling east on 270 toward Moscow some time between 2:53am and 3:25am. Completely consistent with the prosecution's timeline. But probably the weakest evidence visually.

Around 3:25am, a white sedan is captured going westbound on Indian Hills Dr and westbound on Styner Ave. The pca says on "this" video, it appears the sedan didn't have a front license plate, so it's unclear to me if it's one or the other or both or all if multiple video captures were made. The defense does not try to argue this is not BK's car. From there the pca cites multiple video captures of a white sedan in the King Road area that are consistent with these prior captures.

The prosecution will show the timing of the white sedan that left Pullman and is in the same location as BK's phone, and the arrival of the white sedan on Indian Hills/Styner without the front license plate is completely consistent with the time it would take a car to go between those two points. And that right after there's video of a white sedan without a front plate captured on Indian Hills/Styner, there's a white sedan in the King Road neighborhood that appears to be the same vehicle. The defense hasn't disputed the two most incriminating videos cited in the pca--the one putting BK's phone in the same place as the white sedan in Pullman, and the one in Moscow near King Rd with the missing front plate.

I think it's going to be difficult to convince a jury it's not the same car regardless of the confusion with the dates. Is it reasonable to think another white sedan without front plates arrived at the same time his would have, especially that time of the morning with few vehicles on the road? And this is all before we know of any other evidence. It's all under seal so we really can't say the only evidence is the dna on the sheath. All we have is the pca, which isn't evidence, reading the tea leaves of the search warrants, and bits gleaned from the arguments made by the defense.

 

[Cool Cats]

I’m not sure anyone can say for sure BK did not stalk any of the residents of the murder house, even with what the prosecutor said.

He could have been in his car or had other vantage points (outdoor seating, etc.) and watched any one of the residents out and about in public, with no one the wiser.

Stalking in person, unnoticed.

There doesn’t appear to be a digital trail of stalking, but I’m not convinced there was absolutely no stalking at all.


IMO

(Snipped)

BK Stalking.....How it looks to me from the information we have right now.....

Prosecution:

BK's phone pinged on the King Rd Moscow cell tower 11 times before and after midnight, late night early morning.

Defense:

So what? Lot's of Pullman residents go to Moscow at night.

Prosecution:

True. Where did BK go?

Defense:

He was just driving around looking at moon and stars.

Prosecution:

Fine. Do you have phone photos of these specific dates?

Defense:
No.

Prosecution:

Do you have any surveillance videos of places of businesses BK went to on those specific nights?

Defense:
No.

Prosecution:

Do you have any witnesses to confirm BK's whereabouts on those specific nights?

Defense:
No.

Prosecution:

So it is possible BK could have been going to King Rd those nights, correct?

Defense:

We are not saying that, BK was out driving in the country looking at moon and stars like he does all the time.

Juror in deliberation room:

It seems reasonable that BK was going to King Rd all or some of those late nights considering the defense does not have any normal explanations or evidence to show otherwise. The defense does not have any evidence to show us where BK was on those specific dates - where he was on those specific nights.

2 Cents

 

[Cool Cats]

The problem the defense is going to have with the video of the white sedan is, as always, that front license plate.

The prosecution will likely show a map of the route they believe BK took that night, with time stamps, phone records, and video of the car they allege is BK's.

There's video of a white sedan going north on Nevada St at 2:44am and BK's phone records are consistent with the movement and location of this white sedan. This hasn't been disputed by the defense at this point. He was in his car leaving his apartment around that time. The phone stops reporting around 2:47am. There is video of a white sedan the prosecution alleges to be the same vehicle around 2:53am going southeast on Stadium Way toward SR 270--the route to Moscow.

There doesn't appear to be mention of the video taken from the Floyd's in the pca so maybe they didn't have that video yet or decided not to use it in the pca. The defense references this video in their supplemental alibi response saying this vehicle is not BK's because he didn't travel east. Reading between the lines of the defense argument, there's likely video of a white sedan traveling east on 270 toward Moscow some time between 2:53am and 3:25am. Completely consistent with the prosecution's timeline. But probably the weakest evidence visually.

Around 3:25am, a white sedan is captured going westbound on Indian Hills Dr and westbound on Styner Ave. The pca says on "this" video, it appears the sedan didn't have a front license plate, so it's unclear to me if it's one or the other or both or all if multiple video captures were made. The defense does not try to argue this is not BK's car. From there the pca cites multiple video captures of a white sedan in the King Road area that are consistent with these prior captures.

The prosecution will show the timing of the white sedan that left Pullman and is in the same location as BK's phone, and the arrival of the white sedan on Indian Hills/Styner without the front license plate is completely consistent with the time it would take a car to go between those two points. And that right after there's video of a white sedan without a front plate captured on Indian Hills/Styner, there's a white sedan in the King Road neighborhood that appears to be the same vehicle. The defense hasn't disputed the two most incriminating videos cited in the pca--the one putting BK's phone in the same place as the white sedan in Pullman, and the one in Moscow near King Rd with the missing front plate.

I think it's going to be difficult to convince a jury it's not the same car regardless of the confusion with the dates. Is it reasonable to think another white sedan without front plates arrived at the same time his would have, especially that time of the morning with few vehicles on the road? And this is all before we know of any other evidence. It's all under seal so we really can't say the only evidence is the dna on the sheath. All we have is the pca, which isn't evidence, reading the tea leaves of the search warrants, and bits gleaned from the arguments made by the defense.

I do not even know of any murder convictions where the killer's car was shown on surveillance video 20 times going to and from the crime scene.

Not necessary to have all this for a conviction.

What the prosecution has is enough to show jurors it is reasonable that this is BK's car combined with his phone records, DNA and witness description.

I have followed multiple murder victim cases where there is no car video, no cell video and no DNA evidence and still the killers were convicted on other evidence.

2 Cents

 

[schooling]

I personally am looking at this as a juror of the general public and I sincerely believe this is what will happen. This is my opinion only.

The way it works in the USA courts:

1.) A prosecution expert testifies
2.) A defense expert testifiies.
3.) THE JURY decides who to believe, who is more credible, what explanation is the most reasonable.
4.) Sy will testify (if judge allows him) about the cell tower evidence.
5.) The FBI CAST expert with 30 years experience will testify about the cell tower evidence - there is information about this in the PCA.

6.) The jury will decide which expert's explanation is the most reasonable.

Sy's and the prosecution's testimony and Motions on this subject are so confusing, convoluted and full of this:

A.) Possibilities
B.) Maybes
C.) Could be's
D.) If we had more information

.......Because of this......the jury will find that the CAST information from the FBI and other prosecution data experts is much more reasonable than Sy's evidence, and they will go with this.

Look, the number one most important piece of evidence for juries - I have posted links several times about this - is DNA evidence. DNA evidence alone with no alibi convicts defendants from 20 to 30 years ago.

BK's skin cell DNA evidence shows it is reasonable it is his DNA on the sheath under a victim in her bed. I believe the jury will see BK's DNA as being beyond reasonable doubt evidence that helps prove him guilty.

Unknown - at this time - evidence could come up via cell tower/phone evidence, but from what I know right now this post is my .....

2 Cents

Ya IMO it seems like Sy's goal is to muddy up the waters and poke just enough pin sized holes to cast doubt on the cellular evidence.

Solid plan if the state's case was being presented in a vacuum somewhere in outer space.

But any doubt Sy manages to cast on the cellular evidence is quickly dispelled when the video evidence is held up next to it. I mean....what are the probabilities of those coincidences otherwise? Probably up there in the DNA Octaillion range. JMO

Once you accept either one of those things then all roads lead to the DNA found at the crime scene.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

There are plenty of people in Moscow to seat an unbiased jury.

And a jury is not a random sample - it's a selected sample. The qualities are not going to change once you get above 100-1000 people. They're not looking for personalities, they're looking for jurors. Regular people exist everywhere and will tell the Court of their biases at about the same rates, everywhere. Bigger places do not result in better juries - juries are what they are, with input from three parties (which truly does make juries possible and much the same as each other).

All DP appeals cases have expenses attached to them. I predict that this one will be about the same as others, in terms of adjusted expense (taking out inflation). The lines along which these appeals will occur are mostly traditional and seen in many other first degree murder cases.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I do not even know of any murder convictions where the killer's car was shown on surveillance video 20 times going to and from the crime scene.

Not necessary to have all this for a conviction.

What the prosecution has is enough to show jurors it is reasonable that this is BK's car combined with his phone records, DNA and witness description.

I have followed multiple murder victim cases where there is no car video, no cell video and no DNA evidence and still the killers were convicted on other evidence.

2 Cents

Yes Cool Cats…… thank you for these key points! I look forward to this case progressing forward and the in-court attempt by the prosecution to convict the suspect BK for these horrid crimes.

And you are so correct - I cannot recall how many times having watched a Dateline, 20/20, 48 Hours, or The First 48 crime episode where a suspect’s vehicle - similar only in appearance, color and profile - was seen on video or surveillance at or near the scene of the crime. A grainy image from a distance on some less than perfect recording system. Yet with other evidence it was one more piece used to convict the defendant / suspect.

Time will tell. And IMO I believe the apparent circa 2011 - 2016 white Hyundai Elantra traveling vehicle evidence will be helpful. Just one more piece of evidence. And even in the absence of a license plate (or two) that does not denote a specific license plate number, or state, or registration date for renewal. And IIUC the standard for criminal conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt; not beyond all doubt. MOO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Since I don't live in the USA, this makes sense to me.

I'm not entirely certain why the prosecution prefers the venue does not move in the cases that get so much publicity? I 100% understand that it makes if harder for the families of the victims to attend. Personally, I believe that since the cases are so expensive anyways, they might as well provide boarding for the families.

Because if the venue does not move, my concern is the following:
The DT would try to find jurors that have not heard of the case, or if they heard of it, they have no opinion on BK. I know it is usually "would you still be able to be impartial" but hear me out, I believe that occasionally the court would allow the DT to add extra questions to avoid any perception of impartiality.


Now, statistically. From the people of Moscow, the ones who have heard of the case but don't have an opinion on BK guilt are not the representation of the average citizen; I believe they would be the people who are more naturally inclined to vote not guilty. I believe this is a phenomenon that has taken place in other cases that had an enormous amount of publicity, like Casey Anthony.

So IMO if the venue stays in Moscow, via jury selection, they might end up with jurors that are more inclined to vote not guilty. I hope this makes sense?

It makes sense to me.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

MOO

I so disagree.
Crimes are not streamed, events have to be put together from evidence.

MOO The evidence that supports his arrest and eventually a conviction is strong.

He is a DNA match to the crime scene, an item literally fojnd under/by one of the murder victims.

He owns the type of car seen circling the house and fleeing the house. His phone was tracked going toward Moscow before the crime and leaving Moscow after the crime.

He has no alibi.
AT is conspicuously trying to create one from the state's cell data. First there was the assertion he was near Wawawai Park on the Snake, too far west to be involved but now it has evolved from the DT to that he was in some sort of cell shadow south of Moscow.

I'm well aware of the facts. It's not BARD in my book. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I’m not sure anyone can say for sure BK did not stalk any of the residents of the murder house, even with what the prosecutor said.

Nor can anyone say he did. I think it's a stronger argument to say he didn't, in fact, because even the prosecutors, those most familiar with all the facts of the investigation, don't believe it to be true.

He could have been in his car or had other vantage points (outdoor seating, etc.) and watched any one of the residents out and about in public, with no one the wiser.

And he could have never come across them in his life. If we open it up to all possibilities, then we have to allow for the possibility that his path never crossed theirs. Otherwise, it's the one-sided allowances that will prejudice the case.

I believe this case is very strong, but of course, JMO.

I will say, if my daughter was found stabbed to death, and a knife sheath with a man’s DNA was found under or near her body—plus all the other evidence, circumstantial and otherwise (ie. a car very much like that man’s car in the neighborhood at the time of her murder)—I would not consider the case deficient. At all.

IMO

But that's exactly why relatives are not permitted to be on the jury. We're not talking about your daughter or the daughters of jury members. We're talking about 16 strangers who have no emotional ties to the case. That's why it's so important the jury be impartial.

MOO.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I'm not saying there's anything nefarious or planted about the cells, just you don't know how they got there unlike a fingerprint. Some DNA cells somewhere that aren't from something like a blood trail of the assailant or obtained from a rape kit aren't like a fingerprint, like if BK's fingerprint was found on some wall there that would definitely tell you he'd been there. Don't get me wrong in that I think it's his, but I don't actually think this tells you it was from him cleaning it. It being on the button snap more sounds like DNA got there from handling it rather than trying to clean it...it might have been missed from cleaning rather than caused by cleaning. If he was cleaning the sheath without gloves on I'd expect more DNA than just there, but missing a small nook while cleaning with gloves on makes more sense to me. There's lots that can be argued about it without even getting into claims of planted evidence, which would be harder to explain away than if BK left some fingerprint on like a wall or something inside the house.

I think what might be the most damaging evidence to date could be BK's bizarre and guilty-acting behavior after the murders.

 

[mickey2942]

So sad, Xana's parents were on TV tonight, on the news,apparently there was a memorial service held on campus today. He wants the trial in the local community.

They state that they will be at court every day. They are so sad and frustrated.

 

[Boxer]

One thing about the nights he pinged in Moscow, when he drives around he often goes to Moscow.
MOO its just not believable that a PhD student of criminalogy cant remember where he was driving around the night 4 students are murdered.

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm not saying there's anything nefarious or planted about the cells, just you don't know how they got there unlike a fingerprint. Some DNA cells somewhere that aren't from something like a blood trail of the assailant or obtained from a rape kit aren't like a fingerprint, like if BK's fingerprint was found on some wall there that would definitely tell you he'd been there. Don't get me wrong in that I think it's his, but I don't actually think this tells you it was from him cleaning it. It being on the button snap more sounds like DNA got there from handling it rather than trying to clean it...it might have been missed from cleaning rather than caused by cleaning. If he was cleaning the sheath without gloves on I'd expect more DNA than just there, but missing a small nook while cleaning with gloves on makes more sense to me. There's lots that can be argued about it without even getting into claims of planted evidence, which would be harder to explain away than if BK left some fingerprint on like a wall or something inside the house.

Yes, they DO KNOW HOW BK's cells got on the sheath snap.

BK's DNA is specifically TOUCH DNA. BK touched the sheath and left his skin cells. He himself needed to touch the sheath snap to leave enough DNA to gain a complete profile that matches him.

Touch DNA is specifically defined as DNA transferred from a person to an object via contact with the object itself.

Touch DNA is also called “contact DNA”, “trace DNA”, or “transfer DNA”.

Touch DNA Sampling Methods: Efficacy Evaluation and Systematic Review - PMC

Collection and interpretation of “touch DNA” from crime scenes represent crucial steps during criminal investigations, with clear consequences in courtrooms. Although the main aspects of this type of evidence have been extensively studied, some ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In my opinion it is not reasonable for any juror to believe that someone took a Q-tip DNA cheek sample from BK's mouth and then before the Q-tip dries they rub the Q-tip on the sheath snap in the hopes of making it look like BK touched the sheath snap himself. Ludicrous. Not reasonable.

What IS reasonable?

BK touched the sheath snap himself.

 

[Cool Cats]

Wrong thread

 

[GRT]

I'm well aware of the facts. It's not BARD in my book. MOO

That's my worry as well.

I do think BK is the killer, but I'm not sure the prosecution has as tight a case as they wish they did.

Touch DNA can be transferred via a handshake from one person to another and to yet several others. It can be transferred when someone sets down their dinner napkin and someone else clears the table, gives another patron a glass of water, and the patron picks up the glass, and the DNA is then on their hand.

AT is going to play that up. She will have experts who explain how touch DNA travels.

Then we have unclear videos/images of white cars, and keep in mind that more than 1/4 of all cars in the USA are white. We have no clear images of the driver or of the license plate. But, LE should have an image of BK driving--given that most main intersections now have forward-facing cams. Then we have Sy Ray, who claims the cell data places BK somewhere other than the murder house during the killings.

We have a description of bushy eyebrows and an athletic build, but we don't have a pick from a police lineup.

But, we do have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

<modsnip: Opinion articles are not allowed>

Right now, I would put the prosecution's ability to get a guilty conviction at about 80:20 (guilty: not guilty). I think the chance of conviction could actually increase if they move the trial to Boise.

All MOO.

 

[CKS]

We'll see what the evidence shows. But given they didn't find Vans style shoe in BK's home or any of his belongings (that I'm aware of), I don't consider that as evidence on the prosecution's side yet. MOO.

They 100% found them in the house and another fact is BF 100% owned several pairs of vans. Most pics of BF where you can see her shoes she is wearing vans.

 

[iamshadow21]

They 100% found them in the house and another fact is BF 100% owned several pairs of vans. Most pics of BF where you can see her shoes she is wearing vans.

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that BF's shoe size is vastly different to the attacker.

Also, for BF to have left the print in question, she would have had to put on her shoes and walk through the blood of her housemates, as the print left was revealed in greater detail by investigators using a chemical that reacts to blood proteins.

MOO

 

[CKS]

Ya IMO it seems like Sy's goal is to muddy up the waters and poke just enough pin sized holes to cast doubt on the cellular evidence.

Solid plan if the state's case was being presented in a vacuum somewhere in outer space.

But any doubt Sy manages to cast on the cellular evidence is quickly dispelled when the video evidence is held up next to it. I mean....what are the probabilities of those coincidences otherwise? Probably up there in the DNA Octaillion range. JMO

Once you accept either one of those things then all roads lead to the DNA found at the crime scene.

MOO

From what I can find Sy Ray who is a former police detective has testified for the state hundreds of times and this is the first time he has ever testified for the defense that I can find. IMO that speaks volumes that this is literally the first and ONLY time Sy Ray has ever testified for the defense.

MOO

 

[Megnut]

From what I can find Sy Ray who is a former police detective has testified for the state hundreds of times and this is the first time he has ever testified for the defense that I can find. IMO that speaks volumes that this is literally the first and ONLY time Sy Ray has ever testified for the defense.

MOO

Sy Ray, iiuc, is former LE. Bet he's testified plenty for the State. As LE.

JMO