A rather "personal" question about female part

[voynich]

And tell me why wasn't other key evidence ever tested like the garrote...Why just what JR touched....And can you really sit there and tell me that JR shaking people hands that day or touching someone couldn't leave any DNA...
Honestly with a sex game gone wrong I don't want to think this it is very possible but don't want to think that is what happen...But in this case there is alot of should have done but wasn't...Like taking the Ramsey's clothes that day other than an year later...

We should test them now

 

[Ravyn]

We should test them now

Yes, test everything now...Maybe we can have more to work with in this case....Or if nothing else have more to argue with LOL...:angel:

 

[Sophie]

After saying that I was going to beg off this thread, I thought people might find this horrifying story of child sexuality interesting in view of the age of some of the boys in JonBenet's circle. As you know, I believe that Burke had no involvement in JBR's death so this isn't an accusation about him. It's just an addition to the debate which may be apposite in view of how the DNA on JBR can't be attributed to a specific age of male:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8417317.stm

 

[voynich]

After saying that I was going to beg off this thread, I thought people might find this horrifying story of child sexuality interesting in view of the age of some of the boys in JonBenet's circle. As you know, I believe that Burke had no involvement in JBR's death so this isn't an accusation about him. It's just an addition to the debate which may be apposite in view of how the DNA on JBR can't be attributed to a specific age of male:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8417317.stm

It's also apposite in view of the RDI Spin that JBR's genital attributes can be attributed solely to JR sexual abuse of JB due to "situational molestor" or "PR is in sexually inactive due to chemo and ovarian cancer so JR took it out on JB"

Just as there are many secondary transfer DNA scenarios, there are many scenarios that would result in JBR's autopsy findings.

 

[DeeDee249]

We should test them now

That will never happen. We all know that. Boulder will never test the garrote. The garrote cord should have been the FIRST thing tested. And if the new DA actually meant what he said about looking at old evidence with new eyes, he'd have tested it already. IMO, "touch DNA" left there would be difficult to explain innocently, and if it matched the other touch DNA- then it would make me do some thinking about who was in that room with JB as she was killed. Might not make me rule out the parents, but I'd then have to look to who else was involved.
I believe that is why it won't be tested, or if it has, that the results won't be released. My bet is that either it has been tested and has the parents' DNA or it has not been tested because the defense attorneys don't want it to be. This can only be because they are afraid it will have the parents' DNA. Some of the material is destroyed during DNA testing and the lawyers can argue that it can't be done because the garrote has to be preserved.
I agree that JB was strangled from behind. But I think she was already unconscious, and I do not see anything that indicates to me that she struggled. There are NO scratched on her neck, according to the coroner- only petechiae. That is what those tiny red marks are. There was very little movement of the garrote itself.
She very likely was strangled lying on her stomach (head cocked to the right) probably in another area besides the wineceller. Then she was placed on her back on her blanket in the wineceller, and the blanket pulled up around her torso. She had to have died after being placed on her back or be placed on her back relatively soon after death as there were livor mortis patters indicating she was ONLY on her back after death.

 

[Sophie]

It's also apposite in view of the RDI Spin that JBR's genital attributes can be attributed solely to JR sexual abuse of JB due to "situational molestor" or "PR is in sexually inactive due to chemo and ovarian cancer so JR took it out on JB"

Just as there are many secondary transfer DNA scenarios, there are many scenarios that would result in JBR's autopsy findings.

Hang on, a minute. I am reliably told that JBR's older injuries would have been investigated as possible child sexual abuse since self-manipulation as a cause for this damage in a child this age would be considered less likely than abuse. This would be investigated and may be proven wrong but it would be investigated. So don't go saying that you have proven anything here. Equally, the panel consulted by LE also concluded that self-manipulation was unlikely as a cause for JBR's injuries (See PMPT and Steve Thomas's book).

RDI don't necessarily subscribe to John having abused JBR although there are various red flags in her behaviour that would suggest some possible inappropriate behaviour from someone. We know, for example, that she would ask anyone to wipe her and that some adult males in her circle were flat out refusing to do so and planned on having this out with Patsy. Patsy may have used inappropriate cleaning methods. As discussed on another thread, some mothers try to explain their own sexual abuse of their children as 'cleaning.' Read the various Judith Phillips comments on behaviour in the family.

We just don't know.

Which is why looking at people who had close, unsupervised contact with JBR and at their histories and so on might be a tad more helpful than discussing the wholly unhelpful question of whether JBR masturbated.

 

[Ravyn]

Which is why looking at people who had close, unsupervised contact with JBR and at their histories and so on might be a tad more helpful than discussing the wholly unhelpful question of whether JBR masturbated POSTED by Sophie


I agree with you 100% that this would be more helpful...

 

[voynich]

Hang on, a minute. I am reliably told that JBR's older injuries would have been investigated as possible child sexual abuse since self-manipulation as a cause for this damage in a child this age would be considered less likely than abuse. This would be investigated and may be proven wrong but it would be investigated. So don't go saying that you have proven anything here. Equally, the panel consulted by LE also concluded that self-manipulation was unlikely as a cause for JBR's injuries (See PMPT and Steve Thomas's book).

RDI Spin = "possible sexual abuse" = "sexual abuse"

DNA experts regard secondary DNA transfer in 3 locations as less likely than primary transfer in 3 locations on 2 separate articles of clothing.

I don't deny that it would have been investigated, but the investigation would not have necessarily proven that JR or PR sexually abused JB, or that sexual abuse led to her death. If JB had a fever, that would be investigated, as possible infection, but it would not prove TB, flu, cold, chicken pox, Ebola, rabies.

Sophie, the following comes from a board certified pediatrician:

"If we take a step back, though, we can see that it makes sense that kids would want to explore their own bodies. When toilet learning becomes a focus of interest, we might anticipate that kids would also be curious about those parts of the body that have in the past been largely hidden under the diapers. Boys will play with their penises. Girls will finger their vaginas, and even insert objects. Many kids will reach down every chance they get. This exploration produces pleasurable feelings, as we are well aware.

Most, if not all, two year olds will engage in some degree of this behavior. Although many parenting books refer to this as childhood masturbation, I believe the term is misleading and unfortunate. Save the term masturbation for genital stimulation accompanied by sexual fantasy -- another challenge to face years down the road. Toddlers just do it because it feels good. Unselfconscious delight!

Babies will often tug on the genitals in much the same way they tug on the ears or toes. Toddlers, though, begin to recognize that the genitals are special. They are far more interesting and more fun than toes. For some children, playing with the genitals becomes a self-comforting behavior not unlike thumbsucking. For a few, this settles into a time-consuming habit that takes them away from other important play and development."

Since all we have are autopsy results, and JB's pediatric exams and testimony, and pathologists are not necessarily experts on todler self-masturbatory activities (i'm not sure who would be an expert) it would be in short order that the defense could hire experts to prove otherwise.

Has JB's pediatrician been investigated for failing to report suspected sexual abuse as required by law? See PMPT and ST.

RDI don't necessarily subscribe to John having abused JBR although there are various red flags in her behaviour that would suggest some possible inappropriate behaviour from someone. We know, for example, that she would ask anyone to wipe her and that some adult males in her circle were flat out refusing to do so and planned on having this out with Patsy. Patsy may have used inappropriate cleaning methods. As discussed on another thread, some mothers try to explain their own sexual abuse of their children as 'cleaning.' Read the various Judith Phillips comments on behaviour in the family.

Sophie, please read the underlined,

Before I had children, I remember a comedian saying, "As the father of 3 girls, I underestimated the number of times I would have to say, 'don't put that in your vagina'"

I now have two little girls (3 and 7.5). I have one child who loves to stick things in her vagina. Suckers, fingers, etc. I don't know if it enough to actually cause damage to her hymen, but it is possible.

My other daughter has many of the same isses JB had, including bedwetting, not liking to bathe, and poor wiping skills.
Coincidentally, she has also participated in pageants. The combination of these factors often makes her itchy "down there". I could see her itching herself vigorously enough to cause some damage.'' In addition, Patsy may have had to touch her to apply creme (like vagasil or similar product).

So to me, the hymen erosion does not offer evidence of IDI or RDI.

And for the record, if someone said one of my daughters were sexually abused, I would be extremely defensive also.

"Hang on, a minute. I am reliably told that JBR's older injuries would have been investigated as possible child sexual abuse since self-manipulation as a cause for this damage in a child this age would be considered less likely than abuse. " Which is why looking at people who had close, unsupervised contact with JBR and at their histories and so on might be a tad more helpful than discussing the wholly unhelpful question of whether JBR masturbated.

So Sophie, you went from possible sexual abuse since self-manipulation is less likely to the RDI Spin to the SPIN that the wholly unhelpful question of whether JBR masturbated (or self-expored, or had to deal with itching).

That's quite quantum leap of logic you got there.

Sophie, please read what masturbation and self-insertions does to a hymen,

http://www.healthystrokes.com/youngfem.html

A Young Woman's Guide to Masturbation

What about my hymen? Does masturbation hurt the hymen?

The hymen is a thin piece of skin that covers the vaginal opening in young women. It breaks and tears with sexual activity (and occasionally by non-sexual activity), generally over a long period of time. Masturbating with objects will tend to destroy your hymen. Most women have small pieces of hymen left until they give birth for the first time.

Given the above, on what grounds does JB's masturbatory habits prove wholly unhelpful? I've provided expert testimony and personal testimony that girls do masturbate, self-insert with their own fingers, and self-insert objects, and that "Masturbating with objects will tend to destroy your hymen. Most women have small pieces of hymen left until they give birth for the first time". JB may have engaged in sexual play with other children, see below

I
I still have doubts about Burke. I can't help but feel he might have been the one sexually assaulting her. But, it may have been mutual in the sense that JonBenet went along with it. It's a taboo - but, I know of at least two siblings when I was young who 'experimented' with each other. Nothing overt, etc. - more like the playing 'doctor' thing - children are very curious. And I think Burke was coming to an age of being curious and he's got this sister...so - he explores this with her. I don't mean to offend or gross people out - but, it is a fact that many siblings have something like this happen. I lived for a time in a very bad neighborhood - that is where I learned of stuff between a brother & sister....gross & I won't go into it. there was a six year old (I was six to seven) who would steal playboys out of her step-fathers bathroom - she climbed up through the window to get these things. I still remember being traumatized from one particular image! I was almost 'raped' by a boy in this neighborhood a few years older - I write rape in quotes because I'm not sure what he'd be capable of....another gal when I was around nine was always trying to pressure me into taking baths or otherwise getting naked with her...and at the same time some boy my age too! This boy is the other sibling pair I know that some 'exploring' went on.
I apologize if any of this disturbs anyone. I've though about posting something about Burke & sexually assaulting JonBenet but felt I'd have to back up my concerns with my own experience....yuck...but I did it finally.
__________________
The 'yuck' and 'ick' or responses from another thread - not anyone's remarks on this one!

 

[Tadpole12]

She was strangled from behind as is customary and then got walloped on the head. Clean her up due to concerns about fiber transfer. There are brown fibers unaccounted and unsourced. He didn't necessarily know it was her favorite blanket.
After she was stunned and strangled he put ropes on her wrist.

Why kind of struggle do you expect a 50lb 6 y/o girl being strangled from behind by a strong adult male?

Adult woman sure.

Hi voynich.

I wouldn't expect a child to be able to struggle much, if they were held in a submission hold, but having watched a History channel show about the history of garotting as capital punishment, the body twitches and convulses so, that I would expect more abrasions on JBR's body. Perhaps even the froth or vommit that necessitated the 'victim' to be hooded, should be seen at JBR crime scene?

 

[voynich]

Hi voynich.

I wouldn't expect a child to be able to struggle much, if they were held in a submission hold, but having watched a History channel show about the history of garotting as capital punishment, the body twithches and convulses so, that I would expect more abrasions on JBR's body. Perhaps even the froth or vommit that necessitated the 'victim' to be hooded, should be seen at JBR crime scene?

What you say sounds good--maybe she was lifted when she was strangled, off the ground, given she's only 6, and maybe that's why she was cleaned and re-dressed?

 

[BBB167893]

see underline

Just so we understand each other.

 

[BBB167893]

I also suggested we use models or animals to test whether the strangulation came first or head blow.

As I pointed out in that other thread that Sophie found vile, the MYTHBUSTERS do this routinely as do THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR.

I could actually get behind that idea. Although, I seem to recall someone doing something similar already.

A true Sith Lord. Not at all like that pretender SD

EXCUSE ME???

 

[BBB167893]

Other than models or animals...Think about this if you was being strangled would you not fight for your life or would you just stand there and let this happen....And if JonBenet struggled wouldn't there be more evidence of this..

DING! We have a winner.

And if an intruder why would you clean her up...Why would you care and take the time cause she is dead...Why wrap her up in her favorite blanket and above all how would an intruder know it was her favorite...How would the intruder get this off the bed without showing the signs did they take the time to make up the bed....And if so why?

:woohoo:

Any living and breathing creature that is able to fight is going to fight for their right to live....And if the ropes was on JonBenet's wrist show me the evidence where she struggled and left no marks....

:woohoo::woohoo:

 

[BBB167893]

Do you think it's more likley the DNA in 3 locations was the result of secondary transfer, or more likely that JR specifically abused JB over a period of years, in some unknown and unspecified way which escalated into her strangulation in a sex game, followed by murder, with the primary evidence being autopsy results?

Neither, just in case anyone was keeping score.

 

[voynich]

I could actually get behind that idea. Although, I seem to recall someone doing something similar already.



EXCUSE ME???

Since when have you told me to release my anger, only my hatred can destroy you?

 

[BBB167893]

Equally, the panel consulted by LE also concluded that self-manipulation was unlikely as a cause for JBR's injuries (See PMPT and Steve Thomas's book).

Yeah, I was about to bring that up. It's not as if no one thought of it until now. You had no less than eight experts, all tops in their field from what I can gather, come to this agreement independent of each other. I think that bears remembering.

RDI don't necessarily subscribe to John having abused JBR although there are various red flags in her behaviour that would suggest some possible inappropriate behaviour from someone.

Thank you.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't deny that it would have been investigated, but the investigation would not have necessarily proven that JR or PR sexually abused JB, or that sexual abuse led to her death. If JB had a fever, that would be investigated, as possible infection, but it would not prove TB, flu, cold, chicken pox, Ebola, rabies.

You make a strong point. Still, no reason not to investigate, right?

Since all we have are autopsy results, and JB's pediatric exams and testimony, and pathologists are not necessarily experts on toddler self-masturbatory activities (i'm not sure who would be an expert) it would be in short order that the defense could hire experts to prove otherwise.

With THIS defense team, I wouldn't doubt THAT for a minute.

Has JB's pediatrician been investigated for failing to report suspected sexual abuse as required by law?

Provided he ever looked in the first place, which we know he didn't. Some conflict-of-interest issues there, too--in my opinion.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi voynich.

I wouldn't expect a child to be able to struggle much, if they were held in a submission hold, but having watched a History channel show about the history of garotting as capital punishment, the body twitches and convulses so, that I would expect more abrasions on JBR's body. Perhaps even the froth or vommit that necessitated the 'victim' to be hooded, should be seen at JBR crime scene?

Well done, Tadpole. I was just reading a book on the subject.

 

[BBB167893]

Since when have you told me to release my anger, only my hatred can destroy you?

I haven't NEEDED to tell you lately. You've been doing a bang-up job on your own.

I told you once: if you would not be my knight, you would be my pawn.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think she was lifted as she was strangled. The coroner noted the ligature furrow was circumferential, showing little movement up or down. If she was lifted, there would be a distinct upward slant to the mark on her neck. It would be similar to a hanging, and I think the coroner would have noted that.