a "zonked" theory

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I am not sure I am following the discussion correct here but explaining the bruising on her shoulder could be from many different scenarios.
Suppose it was not an older abrasion...

1. Lying on her back she was dragged. When she was found her arms was over her head as if she had been dragged.
2. Lying on her belly the perp was behind her and supposedly sitting on her back with a knee while tying the cord. If she was uncounsious or not at this moment doesn't matter.
3. If there was more than one offender, a whole lot more possibilities.
 
SuperDave said:
Guess no one thought much of Agent Walker's take, eh?
I found the quote to be interesting as well as informative, and was glad you took the time to find it and post it.

I'm frequently amazed at how brutal parents can be to their own children, and how they can get away with it while friends and neighbors and even family members are oblivious. Dave Pelzer's story comes to mind.
 
tumble said:
I am not sure I am following the discussion correct here but explaining the bruising on her shoulder could be from many different scenarios.
Suppose it was not an older abrasion...

1. Lying on her back she was dragged. When she was found her arms was over her head as if she had been dragged.
2. Lying on her belly the perp was behind her and supposedly sitting on her back with a knee while tying the cord. If she was uncounsious or not at this moment doesn't matter.
3. If there was more than one offender, a whole lot more possibilities.

While I'm willing to "consider" it is the hand mark of a man, I will ,until, I read differently, believe she was beaten, as has been stated by those close to the investigation since the beginning.
 
Was agent Walker's statement helpful to anyone? I hope so! I spent a good deal of time finding that! I'd hate to think I wasted it![/QUOTE]

*********************************************************
I really appreciate your research on this case and the way you always do the legwork and then share it. I remember Ron Walker saying this and everytime I hear it it makes me wonder how we can call our human race "civilized". Seems we still have a long way to go. Thanks again, SuperDave!
 
trixie said:
Was agent Walker's statement helpful to anyone? I hope so! I spent a good deal of time finding that! I'd hate to think I wasted it!

*********************************************************
I really appreciate your research on this case and the way you always do the legwork and then share it. I remember Ron Walker saying this and everytime I hear it it makes me wonder how we can call our human race "civilized".
And it makes me wonder how anyone can still be naive enough to buy into the parent-couldn't-do-that spin.

Anyway, ditto that, Trixie. Appreciation moment for SD :)

Sissi, no amount of drama changes the fact that parents can and do commit these crimes and the Ramseys are no exception. You can build a bigger monster and it still may be the parent.
 
"I'm frequently amazed at how brutal parents can be to their own children, and how they can get away with it while friends and neighbors and even family members are oblivious. Dave Pelzer's story comes to mind."

That one I'm not familiar with.

"I really appreciate your research on this case and the way you always do the legwork and then share it. I remember Ron Walker saying this and everytime I hear it it makes me wonder how we can call our human race "civilized". Seems we still have a long way to go. Thanks again, SuperDave!"

Deeply saddening, isn't it? But I could suggest one step toward solving it: no more self-deception. We have to realize that we're not as far from our neanderthal ancestors as we think. Admittance it the first step toward recovery.

"And it makes me wonder how anyone can still be naive enough to buy into the parent-couldn't-do-that spin."

I'd like to take these people to a children's shelter and let them see first-hand the terrible things parents can do to their own children.
 
tumble said:
SuperDave:
I'll say this for you, tumble: John seems like the type who would not allow ANYTHING to blemish him.

Yes, that was kind of my impression also.

rashomon:
Does everybody agree that Burke remembers correctly?
In that case I wonder how their family discussions go regardning this,
it's kind of :bang:
Yes - I agree with this. John Ramsey is a man whose ego is so enormous that he was "Insulted" at being asked to take a routine polygraph to help eliminate him from police enquiries. Also, he has consistently demonstrated a tendency to blame everyone/anyone else for his own failures.

The pineapple is the bugaboo. Ramsey-fans would have us simply dismiss the pineapple because it is perhaps the ONE piece of evidence which cannot be explained away by the Ramseys. Either they lied about her being asleep when she came home... OR she died VERY soon after leaving the White's party. Neither of these looks good for the Ramseys. There was no pineapple served at the White's party - but a bowl of pineapple was sitting in open view in the Ramsey kitchen and was the most likely source of the residue in her gut.

Tumble, good effort and thnking. I had wondered about a similar accident involving the garage door for example - but there are too many bits which don't fit.
 
Thanks for the support Jayelles.

I have learn alot more about the case and it pecularities now and see the bits and pieces that does not add up. This was a first attempt to find a scenario that didn't involve to many strange actions. The one really strange action being JR not calling 911 immediately after dropping her. But as I said before sometimes people takes shortcuts and manages to think 'that never happened' to events that totally would shatter their picture of themselves and their family.
 
"Yes - I agree with this. John Ramsey is a man whose ego is so enormous that he was "Insulted" at being asked to take a routine polygraph to help eliminate him from police enquiries. Also, he has consistently demonstrated a tendency to blame everyone/anyone else for his own failures. The pineapple is the bugaboo. Ramsey-fans would have us simply dismiss the pineapple because it is perhaps the ONE piece of evidence which cannot be explained away by the Ramseys. Either they lied about her being asleep when she came home... OR she died VERY soon after leaving the White's party. Neither of these looks good for the Ramseys. There was no pineapple served at the White's party - but a bowl of pineapple was sitting in open view in the Ramsey kitchen and was the most likely source of the residue in her gut."

John reminds me of the Emperor in "Star Wars." He'll offer you the world to join him, but refuse, and he'll destroy you.
 
sissi,

Darn, girl! Don't you have this case solved yet? Is it or is it not a "deep" ligature groove? Was there or was there not petechial hemorrhaging in association with it? Her neck: had it or had it not been considerably roughed up (abraded) in front. You know, this roughing up is what makes me wonder; that big roughly triangular "abrasion" to the left of midline, among others, makes me wonder. The necklace chain and the hair caught up in the cord make me wonder. No care was taken to avoid these when the noose was applied. Where is the pendant?

Questions for you: Can we attribute all the neck abrasions to the cord around the neck? Was/were one, some or many of them made by other means? These are not suggestive of staging. They're suggestive of a struggle.

My two cents.

Glad to see you're still posting.
 
Red Chief
Sissi left just the other day, she doesn't post here anymore.
Her goodbye post is in the Ransom Note thread, last page, if you wanted to look.
 
Special Agent Ron Walker was trained at the FBI's behavioral sciences unit. He worked along John Douglas and others.

One interesting fact: Ron Walker saved John Douglas life in Seattle. He kicked down Douglas motel room door and found him unconcious. Apparently Douglas had a case of meningitis.
 
"Is it or is it not a "deep" ligature groove?"

Chief, it looks it, but the autopsy found no real damage to the tongue, larynx or hyoid bone. It's likely that there was one hard yank, and the rest was by chance.

"Was there or was there not petechial hemorrhaging in association with it?"

Yes, but it was limited.

"Her neck: had it or had it not been considerably roughed up (abraded) in front."

Well, there were no marks from her scratching her neck, but there was one particular area of abrasion.

"You know, this roughing up is what makes me wonder; that big roughly triangular "abrasion" to the left of midline, among others, makes me wonder."

Same here. It's possible the neck abrasion was made prior to the cord being applied.

"The necklace chain and the hair caught up in the cord make me wonder. No care was taken to avoid these when the noose was applied. Where is the pendant?"

Pendant? I'm lost on that one. But yes, the chain and hair were caught up in it, which suggests to me (and the FBI before me) that this was a person in haste with no real knowledge of what it should look like. Her hair was actually tied up in the knots, along with something else...

"Questions for you: Can we attribute all the neck abrasions to the cord around the neck?"

Likely.

"Was/were one, some or many of them made by other means?"

Maybe by the knuckles of a hand twisting a shirt collar.

"These are not suggestive of staging. They're suggestive of a struggle."

How do you figure? There were no scratch marks, no tongue damage, no erratic marks from the cord being jostled. It was staging, pure and simple. I'd stake the house on it.

I didn't know about that, Toltec.
 
narlacat said:
Red Chief
Sissi left just the other day, she doesn't post here anymore.
Her goodbye post is in the Ransom Note thread, last page, if you wanted to look.
narlacat, thanks for the info; I'll go have a look.
 
No worries Chief.


<<Pendant? I'm lost on that one. But yes, the chain and hair were caught up in it, which suggests to me (and the FBI before me) that this was a person in haste with no real knowledge of what it should look like. Her hair was actually tied up in the knots, along with something else...>>

I think maybe Chief means the cross, wasn't it a cross on her necklace?
 
Thanks, SD.

Re the pendant: wasn't there supposedly a cross (crucifix) attached to the necklace originally?

Is damage usually done to the tongue, larynx or hyoid bone in the course of ligature strangulation? I'm aware that one or more of these is sometimes damaged during manual strangulation.

To what do you attribute the "limited" petechial hemorrhaging? Would you say that it indicates that the heart continued to beat for some period of time while the noose was in place; or was the child dead when it was installed; or, to put it another way--was ligature strangulation a factor which contributed to the child's death?

"Same here. It's possible the neck abrasion was made prior to the cord being applied." I concur. In addition to the "big" triangular abrasion there is a least one long abrasion (I recollect) which might have been inflicted by means other than the cord. It's similar in appearance to some photos which I have seen of abrasions on the necks of other victims of strangulation where the ligature was not found at the scene.

You say that it appears that the perp had no knowledge of what the ligature staging should look like. What should it look like? There should be no necklace nor hair caught up in the ligature? Can not one in haste intend to actually strangle rather than to stage strangulation? Would the child's parent/s be in such haste under the circumstances? What person might be in such haste? Yes, it was the hair entwined in the tie on the stick that made me think that either: (1.) the stick was added (for what purpose, I'm not sure) after the fact of the strangulation; or (2.) the apparatus in it's entirety, as found at the scene, was applied while the child lay unconscious from the blow or perhaps from being stunned and thus immobilized.

What do you make of the one fiber, consistent with the cord fibers, found on the child's bed? Some say this suggests that one or more of the cords was/were installed at that location. If the neck cord were installed at that location, would that be suggestive of kidnapping? Does one first strangle a child before whisking her away?

When I say that the abrasions on the front of the neck, whether many or few in the eyes of the beholder, are suggestive of a struggle, I mean they suggest that the child hadn't been immobilized prior to infliction of the neck trauma, and the mere fact of the abrasions suggest that the neck trauma may have been inflicted during an attempt--whether successful or not--to subdue the child. I'm trying to understand what happened; trying to account for all the injuries; I consider a neck abrasion an injury. If I saw no abrasions on the front of the neck (total absence) I would be more inclined to suspect staging, unless I had an explanation for the abrasions which accommodated staging.

I'm bothered (not satisfied that I understand them) by these abrasions. I believe at least one expert saw evidence that the child clawed at the noose. I, with my untrained eye--the real one, not the glass one--see no such evidence. Further, there was no mention in the AR of damage to the fingernails; in fact it was mentioned that they were long enough to need clipping (or words to that effect). As you know, often when the victims of strangulation claw frantically at a ligature, there is nail and even sometimes finger damage.

I was hoping to get a rise out of sissi, but I'm truly thankful for your answers. Permit me two last questions: (1.) has the foreign DNA under the nails been matched in any degree to the foreign DNA in the underwear? and (2.) how do two (2) drops of blood in the underwear equate to the "several red areas of staining" mentioned in the autopsy report?

Sincerely,

RedChief
 
I guess I'll assume, that like Patsy, JonBenet wore jewellry to bed?

The marks beneath the ligature cord appear to be caused by manual strangulation.

The furrow caused by the ligature appears to be staged.

But Coroner Meyer stated on the autopsy that the cause of death was ligature strangulation which unless he means the area beneath the ligature then it must be for real, and this would firm up the head trauma first scenario?

.
 
RedChief, I have asked that same question about whether the fingernail DNA has postively been matched to the underwear DNA. In my reading I found that the fingernail DNA has been contaminated due to the coroner's office not using a sterile set of clippers for each nail, but only one comment about the DNA matching, and that came from Team Ramsey people.
 
RedChief said:
Thanks, SD.

Re the pendant: wasn't there supposedly a cross (crucifix) attached to the necklace originally?

Is damage usually done to the tongue, larynx or hyoid bone in the course of ligature strangulation? I'm aware that one or more of these is sometimes damaged during manual strangulation.

To what do you attribute the "limited" petechial hemorrhaging? Would you say that it indicates that the heart continued to beat for some period of time while the noose was in place; or was the child dead when it was installed; or, to put it another way--was ligature strangulation a factor which contributed to the child's death?

"Same here. It's possible the neck abrasion was made prior to the cord being applied." I concur. In addition to the "big" triangular abrasion there is a least one long abrasion (I recollect) which might have been inflicted by means other than the cord. It's similar in appearance to some photos which I have seen of abrasions on the necks of other victims of strangulation where the ligature was not found at the scene.

You say that it appears that the perp had no knowledge of what the ligature staging should look like. What should it look like? There should be no necklace nor hair caught up in the ligature? Can not one in haste intend to actually strangle rather than to stage strangulation? Would the child's parent/s be in such haste under the circumstances? What person might be in such haste? Yes, it was the hair entwined in the tie on the stick that made me think that either: (1.) the stick was added (for what purpose, I'm not sure) after the fact of the strangulation; or (2.) the apparatus in it's entirety, as found at the scene, was applied while the child lay unconscious from the blow or perhaps from being stunned and thus immobilized.

What do you make of the one fiber, consistent with the cord fibers, found on the child's bed? Some say this suggests that one or more of the cords was/were installed at that location. If the neck cord were installed at that location, would that be suggestive of kidnapping? Does one first strangle a child before whisking her away?

When I say that the abrasions on the front of the neck, whether many or few in the eyes of the beholder, are suggestive of a struggle, I mean they suggest that the child hadn't been immobilized prior to infliction of the neck trauma, and the mere fact of the abrasions suggest that the neck trauma may have been inflicted during an attempt--whether successful or not--to subdue the child. I'm trying to understand what happened; trying to account for all the injuries; I consider a neck abrasion an injury. If I saw no abrasions on the front of the neck (total absence) I would be more inclined to suspect staging, unless I had an explanation for the abrasions which accommodated staging.

I'm bothered (not satisfied that I understand them) by these abrasions. I believe at least one expert saw evidence that the child clawed at the noose. I, with my untrained eye--the real one, not the glass one--see no such evidence. Further, there was no mention in the AR of damage to the fingernails; in fact it was mentioned that they were long enough to need clipping (or words to that effect). As you know, often when the victims of strangulation claw frantically at a ligature, there is nail and even sometimes finger damage.

I was hoping to get a rise out of sissi, but I'm truly thankful for your answers. Permit me two last questions: (1.) has the foreign DNA under the nails been matched in any degree to the foreign DNA in the underwear? and (2.) how do two (2) drops of blood in the underwear equate to the "several red areas of staining" mentioned in the autopsy report?

Sincerely,

RedChief
Go to the Separating FACT from Fiction thread, it tells you there about the DNA.
 

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