Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #176

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He did, but did the phone necessarily have to be *his*? Could he theoretically have obtained a device from say KK or some associate at say... the Marathon Gas Station nearest the crime scene? Done the crime then handed it back to someone at some point post crime? It might be very interesting that HIS phone has no evidence to the crime scene.

The biggest most interesting thing to me is that a witness saw a "muddy" man who may have been bloody and appeared as though he'd been in a fight walking post crime - IF that was RA and he got into his car, there is (in my view) NO WAY he didn't have a transfer of evidence from the scene to the car or from the car to the scene. But yet still nothing ties him to the scene via DNA per his legal team - so IS RA the killer? Or, did he "just" abduct them? Or was he just a man at the bridge who didn't see anything?
After 5-6 years who knows what kind of clean-up could have been done on that vehicle...or he could have had a duffel in the trunk and extra cloths on, strip the outer layer, change shoes. Just some other thoughts.
 
And that is exactly what makes RA an unlikely candidate for this murder, IMO. No criminal record. Not that that would out of hand preclude anyone, but there’s plenty of criminal activity down in those parts and it’s not a secret by any means. Back in 2019/20 it was easy to connect many names of “associates” in the drug making/dealing that were offending and reoffending without any substantial consequences, all searchable on MyCase. A few charges raised my eyebrow! JMHO
Lots of really bad people with repeat violent crimes have never had a previous criminal record before they were finally arrested and found out to be monsters getting away with it for years...some decades.
 
" Guys " always seemed like a greeting to me. Could have been done by RA or someone else. But RA didn't say if he had spoken to the girls as they passed by him as he stood on the first platform. JMO
He passed the group of girls near the Freedom Bridge, not the Monon High Bridge with the platforms. RA said he was on the Monon Bridge watching the fish below. He said he never saw Abby and Libby. I wonder if he told LE that he saw BB while he was on the bridge, watching fish?
 
RSBM. But this is not a thing. The defence can simply file their speedy trial motion and force a trial within 70 days. I get why they waited for SCOIN to issue its reasons, but now they know they can't recuse the judge, there is no real reason not to fast track the trial if that supposedly was their strategy.

They are in the same position they were in back in October.
Might be just a little difficult filing a speedy trial motion when having to deal with the nonsense that has happened since October. How exactly do you envision them being able to do it under the circumstances they find themselves in now after JG DQ’d them necessitating going to the SCOIN among other things? What a waste of time JG initiated with that move. Then, there’s the Westerman trial coming up shortly and now the contempt charges. Time would have been saved had JG not done what she did to begin with. I lay that time consuming mess at her feet. Then, in comes NMcCl inserting another stall tactic to keep them occupied so they cannot in all reasonableness dedicate the time they require to immediately go ahead with a speedy trial for RA while dealing with more nonsense with the supposed “contempt” filing.

While what MW did was highly unethical, I personally don’t think they can prove it was “criminal.” If it was truly criminal, would LE not have been able to get search warrants for RF’s phone, as well as Cohen’s to determine how this all flowed? How is it that Cohen appears to be coated in some kind of Teflon?

I guess everyone thinks R&B are some kind of “super hero” attorneys that can juggle their personal practices with all this nonsense and still file for a speedy hearing. They had one to begin with. It was scheduled to happen in January, until Gull allowed herself to get sucked into NMcCl well orchestrated stall tactics. I’ll give him that. He has a knack for generating nonsense to buy himself more time. NMcCl doesn’t want a speedy trial and he’s doing everything he can to prevent one by keeping the D busy with nothing burgers.

All JMHO.
 
Lots of really bad people with repeat violent crimes have never had a previous criminal record before they were finally arrested and found out to be monsters getting away with it for years...some decades.
Very true! Personally, I don’t think RA falls into that category. One would think if he did this evil, it didn’t just start that beautiful, warm day at the age of 50. One would think if this was his pattern of behaviour, LE would have connected him to others by now via DNA and other incriminating evidence. But, what do we see? Nothing. No link to the CS, the girls, KAK, drugs, Odinism or incriminating phone logs. Nope. Absolutely nothing. A more than questionable unspent bullet and RA placing himself at the trails like 40 other people. I doubt very much that the people who committed this horrific murder bother finding DD or LE to let them know they were there too!. EF says he was there, had guilty knowledge, and as far as I know, he didn’t chase down LE to let them know. However, his sister did, literally had to chase them down for them to bother listening. Go figure that!
 
Very true! Personally, I don’t think RA falls into that category. One would think if he did this evil, it didn’t just start that beautiful, warm day at the age of 50. One would think if this was his pattern of behaviour, LE would have connected him to others by now via DNA and other incriminating evidence. But, what do we see? Nothing. No link to the CS, the girls, KAK, drugs, Odinism or incriminating phone logs. Nope. Absolutely nothing. A more than questionable unspent bullet and RA placing himself at the trails like 40 other people. I doubt very much that the people who committed this horrific murder bother finding DD or LE to let them know they were there too!. EF says he was there, had guilty knowledge, and as far as I know, he didn’t chase down LE to let them know. However, his sister did, literally had to chase them down for them to bother listening. Go figure that!
The trial, against RA, hasn't started yet. We don't know the complete evidence the prosecution has against RA. However we do know, since it was said in open court before a judge, that RA has confessed to murdering Abby and Libby...to his wife and mother, not interrogators...no less than five times on recorded prison phone calls. Go figure that one!
 
Might be just a little difficult filing a speedy trial motion when having to deal with the nonsense that has happened since October. How exactly do you envision them being able to do it under the circumstances they find themselves in now after JG DQ’d them necessitating going to the SCOIN among other things? What a waste of time JG initiated with that move. Then, there’s the Westerman trial coming up shortly and now the contempt charges. Time would have been saved had JG not done what she did to begin with. I lay that time consuming mess at her feet. Then, in comes NMcCl inserting another stall tactic to keep them occupied so they cannot in all reasonableness dedicate the time they require to immediately go ahead with a speedy trial for RA while dealing with more nonsense with the supposed “contempt” filing.

While what MW did was highly unethical, I personally don’t think they can prove it was “criminal.” If it was truly criminal, would LE not have been able to get search warrants for RF’s phone, as well as Cohen’s to determine how this all flowed? How is it that Cohen appears to be coated in some kind of Teflon?

I guess everyone thinks R&B are some kind of “super hero” attorneys that can juggle their personal practices with all this nonsense and still file for a speedy hearing. They had one to begin with. It was scheduled to happen in January, until Gull allowed herself to get sucked into NMcCl well orchestrated stall tactics. I’ll give him that. He has a knack for generating nonsense to buy himself more time. NMcCl doesn’t want a speedy trial and he’s doing everything he can to prevent one by keeping the D busy with nothing burgers.

All JMHO.
You think AB & BR are not responsible in any way for what occured in and through their law practices? They have no blame to be laid at their feet for any of the violations that occured? Would or should the same grace be extended to the prosecution IF it was their leaks and behavior that compromised a fair trial for a defendant? Just curious
 
Might be just a little difficult filing a speedy trial motion when having to deal with the nonsense that has happened since October.
In the October 19th in chambers meeting, R&B's statements and a filing (through DH for AB) said they were ready and had planned for Jan trial date.They've had their signed, non dated STM request since August. They weren't ready then and they still aren't ready by a mile now IMO.
How exactly do you envision them being able to do it under the circumstances they find themselves in now after JG DQ’d them necessitating going to the SCOIN among other things? What a waste of time JG initiated with that move.
Judge Gull didn't follow procedural steps for DQing the Defense I agree, but the SCOIN said JG showed a genuine concern for RA over the conduct of R&B. They unanimously found Judge Gull had no bias against RA or the Defense so she's still driving the bus.
Then, there’s the Westerman trial coming up shortly and now the contempt charges. Time would have been saved had JG not done what she did to begin with. I lay that time consuming mess at her feet.
If R&B hadn't continuously disregarded Court Orders and then leak Confidential CS Photos and Data, they wouldn't be in this situation now. This wasn't a Judge Gull time consuming mess, the Defense also avoided the correct procedural steps by going straight to the SCOIN, when it could have been held in lower trial court.
Then, in comes NMcCl inserting another stall tactic to keep them occupied so they cannot in all reasonableness dedicate the time they require to immediately go ahead with a speedy trial for RA while dealing with more nonsense with the supposed “contempt” filing.
But they were ready to go to Court back in October according to them so the key elements of the case were in place supposedly right? Maybe they exaggerated a bit.
While what MW did was highly unethical, I personally don’t think they can prove it was “criminal.” If it was truly criminal, would LE not have been able to get search warrants for RF’s phone, as well as Cohen’s to determine how this all flowed? How is it that Cohen appears to be coated in some kind of Teflon?
I bet we'll hear more of what really happened at the hearing. There's a reason MW wanted a trial by Judge IMO.
I guess everyone thinks R&B are some kind of “super hero” attorneys that can juggle their personal practices with all this nonsense and still file for a speedy hearing. They had one to begin with. It was scheduled to happen in January, until Gull allowed herself to get sucked into NMcCl well orchestrated stall tactics. I’ll give him that. He has a knack for generating nonsense to buy himself more time. NMcCl doesn’t want a speedy trial and he’s doing everything he can to prevent one by keeping the D busy with nothing burgers.
No, not everybody thinks R&B are super heroes or legal geniuses of any type. The breach of ethics and misconduct by the Defense in sharing Court ordered confidential, protected Discovery and then lying about it is not a nothing burger IMO. A man committed suicide during this leak of information and investigation and left behind a wife and children.

This misconduct, and others, has been done by the Defense as alleged by the Special Appointed Judge who the SCOIN unanimously refused to recuse and the States Prosecutor. I lay the blame squarely on the Defense by their own snookery and deceitful behavior throughout this entire case.

ALL JMO
 
The trial, against RA, hasn't started yet. We don't know the complete evidence the prosecution has against RA. However we do know, since it was said in open court before a judge, that RA has confessed to murdering Abby and Libby...to his wife and mother, not interrogators...no less than five times on recorded prison phone calls. Go figure that one!
I have. We have no idea under what circumstances that occurred. Correction, in fact we do! :)
 
Might be just a little difficult filing a speedy trial motion when having to deal with the nonsense that has happened since October. How exactly do you envision them being able to do it under the circumstances they find themselves in now after JG DQ’d them necessitating going to the SCOIN among other things? What a waste of time JG initiated with that move. Then, there’s the Westerman trial coming up shortly and now the contempt charges. Time would have been saved had JG not done what she did to begin with. I lay that time consuming mess at her feet. Then, in comes NMcCl inserting another stall tactic to keep them occupied so they cannot in all reasonableness dedicate the time they require to immediately go ahead with a speedy trial for RA while dealing with more nonsense with the supposed “contempt” filing.

While what MW did was highly unethical, I personally don’t think they can prove it was “criminal.” If it was truly criminal, would LE not have been able to get search warrants for RF’s phone, as well as Cohen’s to determine how this all flowed? How is it that Cohen appears to be coated in some kind of Teflon?

I guess everyone thinks R&B are some kind of “super hero” attorneys that can juggle their personal practices with all this nonsense and still file for a speedy hearing. They had one to begin with. It was scheduled to happen in January, until Gull allowed herself to get sucked into NMcCl well orchestrated stall tactics. I’ll give him that. He has a knack for generating nonsense to buy himself more time. NMcCl doesn’t want a speedy trial and he’s doing everything he can to prevent one by keeping the D busy with nothing burgers.

All JMHO.
I don’t think for one moment that the horrific distribution of photos of assaulted, murdered, naked children is a crime that should be ignored. The girls and their families were re-victimized by the defense team and their cohorts.
<modsnip: Name changes or derogatory terms for individuals is not allowed>
Perhaps RA would be well on his way to speedy trial right now if he had been fully informed in September that the crime scene photo leak would be keeping his defense team preoccupied. Perhaps he wouldn’t have signed that pre written letter to keep counsel.
 
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You think AB & BR are not responsible in any way for what occured in and through their law practices? They have no blame to be laid at their feet for any of the violations that occured? Would or should the same grace be extended to the prosecution IF it was their leaks and behavior that compromised a fair trial for a defendant? Just curious
I would not hold NMcCl responsible for what someone else did. I only hold him responsible for what he himself as the agent of the State is doing. Which by the way, is not criminal, just highly annoying.
 
By the defence's own argument (via the Habeas attorney), the contempt matter should be a completely different proceedings and has nothing to do with RA's trial.

If the defence are too busy to represent RA properly because they are dealing with their own personal disciplinary matters then they should not be representing him. This is indeed one reason why RA may not have been well advised to stick with them.

So no, the contempt proceedings don't wash with me as a reason why <modnote - ROZZI> can't move ahead with speedy trial.

They've had essentially a month since the SCOIN judgement to get their feet back under the table. The case is effectively the same, (yes there are new charges). It is them choosing not to move ahead swiftly. They can't blame anyone else for that now.
 
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I don’t think for one moment that the horrific distribution of photos of assaulted, murdered, naked children is a crime that should be ignored. The girls and their families were re-victimized by the defense team and their cohorts.
<modsnip: Name changes or derogatory terms for individuals is not allowed>
Perhaps RA would be well on his way to speedy trial right now if he had been fully informed in September that the crime scene photo leak would be keeping his defense team preoccupied. Perhaps he wouldn’t have signed that pre written letter to keep counsel.
I don’t disagree that it should be addressed, but was it criminal? Is there a law that says it was criminal? I’m fine with MW getting whatever once we see all the evidence at his trial. I’d just like to see Cohen get the same treatment. I don’t see that happening. Why?
 
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I don’t disagree that it should be addressed, but was it criminal? Is there a law that says it was criminal? I’m fine with MW getting whatever once we see all the evidence at his trial. I’d just like to see Cohen get the same treatment. I don’t see that happening. Why?
I believe it is criminal and ALL parties should be pursued for legal action. Including Cohen. The fact that Cohen is in another state may make it difficult for the state of Indiana to pursue charges. I believe we will see charges against Cohen in Texas or even federally since he distributed across state lines.
I don’t think we should set aside justice because its inconvenient to the parties that committed the crime.
 
I have. We have no idea under what circumstances that occurred. Correction, in fact we do! :)
Are you talking about the old/new D's theory, the patch-wearing Odinist guards made him do it? That he had such fear for himself and his family from these guards that he told his wife and mother on the phone he murdered the girls? He didn't tell the warden, confess to a fellow inmate or call for LE to hear his confession. He just passing the buck, so to speak, revealing his deeds to his wife and mother, the people supposedly in danger from these Odinist guards.

I guess it's a good thing then that RA's phone calls were being recorded, for his wife and mother's safety? Maybe he mentions the guards threats in those phone calls. I sure hope so, for his sake, because otherwise his goose may be cooked, as they say, on a false confession. All just my thoughts.
 
I don’t disagree that it should be addressed, but was it criminal? Is there a law that says it was criminal? I’m fine with MW getting whatever once we see all the evidence at his trial. I’d just like to see Cohen get the same treatment. I don’t see that happening. Why?
What IF the culpability extends to others, who at the very least had a front row seat but IF they may actually have participated? And what IF those "others" are officers of the court? I think, IMO, IF it was their actions that caused the release of horrific crime scene photos of two children, onto the internet, that is a case of moral turpitude if ever there was one. Society was harmed. AJMO
 
I do not understand why if Richard Allen drove the long way around to get to the Monon High Bridge trail, why he did not park at either the Mears entrance or the Delphi cemetery? He would have been able to avoid having his black 2016 Ford Focus captured on the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera(if he knew about it).

Maybe there is something in the confessions Richard Allen gave that only the killer would know, but as it stands right now with the evidence that has been released, I think it is going to be difficult to get twelve people to agree on his guilt or innocence. I think this might be a case where the jury cannot come to a decision.
 
I do not understand why if Richard Allen drove the long way around to get to the Monon High Bridge trail, why he did not park at either the Mears entrance or the Delphi cemetery? He would have been able to avoid having his black 2016 Ford Focus captured on the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera(if he knew about it).

Maybe there is something in the confessions Richard Allen gave that only the killer would know, but as it stands right now with the evidence that has been released, I think it is going to be difficult to get twelve people to agree on his guilt or innocence. I think this might be a case where the jury cannot come to a decision.
Maybe he was afraid of trail cams going in on the Reserve entrance or the graveyard? He may not have realized the Harvest store had a camera facing the road? Maybe he surveilled the old building where he parked and saw no cameras mounted?

I think something he said repeatedly must have upset his wife because she finally hung up on him.

We shall see in October, hopefully, all these things play out. AJMO
 
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