Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[girlhasnoname]

Interesting reading of the hearing transcript and the States Follow up on Contempt. If the D is counting on Click to sway a jury, they're in for a disappointment IMO. To me he comes across as wanting to prove his theory was right and LE, ISP and the FBI got it all wrong.

Judge Gull is no idiot no matter how many times the Defense and supporters of them want to claim she is. From all of their actions, beginning on the day they were appointed, there has been underhanded and unprofessional conduct by them. They try and offer 'logical' explanations on how these incidents have happened.

To believe what and how they've proposed all that's happened is innocent or an 'oops, sorry we didn't know' is so beyond the realm of possibility. I would love a statistician to run the odds here, although I don't need the results of an expert to tell me that it's misconduct and contempt of court as alleged.

I hope Judge Gull rules them in contempt, I hope she fines them, jails them, or dismisses them from the case if possible.

They have done their client, Defendant Allen, no favors. He's become a second thought even though he is promised the right to a vigorous and competent defense, he's received neither from R&B IMO. I think the court of public opinion is even more convinced of his guilt than ever.

I appreciate Defense Attorneys, we must have competent and dedicated individuals to represent defendants to make our Judicial Process work. I have seen quite a few that I have admired for their tenacity and ability to defend their client to best of their abilities. I have never, in any case, seen the underhanded actions this D has shown repeatedly.

#Justice4Abby&LibbyTheRealVictims

MOO

 

[justtrish]

They were likely relaying personal information of a possible defense witness to the court. The defense wanted the information to be confidential so that the prosecution could not infer the defense's strategy from the information.

Interesting they seem to want every other detail out in the public without any care in the world what it would do to the victims families or the case, but now this needs to private. They leaked photos and seemed to think that was okay and they wrote all sorts of details of the crime scene in their memo so why the need to privacy now? Only when it suits them I guess.

 

[layer]

The case is a roller coaster, to be sure. Detective Ferency (RIP) had a dangerous job as a Terre Haute police detective (30-year veteran) and an FBI Task Force member since 2010 (the latter position he was serving in when killed in Terre Haute in the line of duty).

Det. Ferency was best known for his work in narcotics (he wrote a book) and human trafficking and worked on many dangerous issues over his distinguished career.

MOO: I mention and link this because I’ve seen this terrible July 2021 killing referenced here and elsewhere with the suggestion that the murder was related to Det. Ferency’s work on the Delphi case. There is zero evidence to suggest that. I hope I will have some leeway in providing a bit of a linked and referenced deep dive on this ambush and murder of a federal agent since it is oft-referenced as related to the Delphi case.

Dive below, please disregard if not of interest.
—

A NYT article on the murder states:


A WFY-Indianapolis article further observes (BBM)



A Heavy.com article on the indicted suspect, Shane Meehan, does not reference any connection to Carroll County or Delphi. A My Wabash Valley article that predates Det. Ferency’s murder features an indepth interview with Meehan, who was at the time a candidate for Terre Haute mayor. One of his major platform issues was addressing gun violence.

Because this involved an attack on a federal office and the killing of a federal agent, Meehan faces federal charges. In July 2022, federal prosecutors filed that they would not seek the federal death penalty in the case (Meehan formerly worked at the federal prison where federal executions — like Timothy McVeigh’s execution — occur). WTHR reported at the time:



The link in the quote above is to an AP article that covered the filing and states:


—
His trial was supposed to start the end of March 2024, but I can’t find any updates or a WS thread following it.

I have been following Abby’s and Libby’s terrible murders since they went missing. I grew up near Delphi (separated by several decades); have my own frustrations with the investigation; like many Hoosiers, have my own 6-degrees-of-separation to the case (NOT an insider); and also have close ones who serve in federal roles and follow anti-federal violence, especially in Indiana.

I sadly suspect this was akin to a disgruntled former employee with mental health issues attacking a former employer. Court documents are linked above. The attack by all indications was specific to the federal office, not to Det. Ferency.

Thank you and MOO with links, per TOS.

Thank you for sharing that! AFAIK no one here has tried to link Detective Ferency's murder to the Delphi killings beyond the fact that Click is under oath saying: It was the belief of Detective Murphy, Detective Ferency, and I that there was a strong likelihood that there was - that Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, and Elvis Fields had a strong involvement in the murders of the girls. Now, because of his heroic sacrifice, we won't get to hear his testimony.
Source

 

[AugustWest]

Interesting they seem to want every other detail out in the public without any care in the world what it would do to the victims families or the case, but now this needs to private. They leaked photos and seemed to think that was okay and they wrote all sorts of details of the crime scene in their memo so why the need to privacy now? Only when it suits them I guess.

Easy there, killer! Don't shoot the messenger; I'm only offering the why!

 

[justtrish]

Interesting reading of the hearing transcript and the States Follow up on Contempt. If the D is counting on Click to sway a jury, they're in for a disappointment IMO. To me he comes across as wanting to prove his theory was right and LE, ISP and the FBI got it all wrong.

Judge Gull is no idiot no matter how many times the Defense and supporters of them want to claim she is. From all of their actions, beginning on the day they were appointed, there has been underhanded and unprofessional conduct by them. They try and offer 'logical' explanations on how these incidents have happened.

To believe what and how they've proposed all that's happened is innocent or an 'oops, sorry we didn't know' is so beyond the realm of possibility. I would love a statistician to run the odds here, although I don't need the results of an expert to tell me that it's misconduct and contempt of court as alleged.

I hope Judge Gull rules them in contempt, I hope she fines them, jails them, or dismisses them from the case if possible.

They have done their client, Defendant Allen, no favors. He's become a second thought even though he is promised the right to a vigorous and competent defense, he's received neither from R&B IMO. I think the court of public opinion is even more convinced of his guilt than ever.

I appreciate Defense Attorneys, we must have competent and dedicated individuals to represent defendants to make our Judicial Process work. I have seen quite a few that I have admired for their tenacity and ability to defend their client to best of their abilities. I have never, in any case, seen the underhanded actions this D has shown repeatedly.

#Justice4Abby&LibbyTheRealVictims

MOO

I was listening to MS new episode discussing the recent filings and I'm even more convinced that "leaks" were intentional and they tried to throw someone under the bus for it, but they really were the ones that wanted the info leaked so they could gauge public opinion. It is beyond me how this isn't a simple ruling. They did wrong and tried to blame others, someone is now dead because of this and they still continue to play games and it feels a lot like gaslighting. No wonder the judge is annoyed and seems biased. These men are making a mockery of her courtroom. They are creating a $hiT$show and then complaining it stinks.

Imagine we had no idea what the defense was going to be before trial. No leaks, no crime scene photos, no Odin discussions, no delays and drama, just silence from both sides until the trial starts. Imagine how much smoother the jury selection would be. Imagine how much less money this would cost. At some point we have to ask who benefits from this circus?

 

[justtrish]

Easy there, killer! Don't shoot the messenger; I'm only offering the why!

That wasn't directed at you, I was commenting on the "why" you mentioned. If they want privacy, they sure haven't shown that until now. Seems they wanted to try this case in the public before it even gets to the courtroom so why keep it quiet now?

 

[AugustWest]

That wasn't directed at you, I was commenting on the "why" you mentioned. If they want privacy, they sure haven't shown that until now. Seems they wanted to try this case in the public before it even gets to the courtroom so why keep it quiet now?

I know it wasn't. I just needed some levity this morning. The ladies missing in the Panhandle of OK has me needing some positive vibes, and laughter is a great healer. Have a great day @justtrish !

 

[justtrish]

I know it wasn't. I just needed some levity this morning. The ladies missing in the Panhandle of OK has me needing some positive vibes, and laughter is a great healer. Have a great day @justtrish !

I haven't heard of the missing woman. I am sorry that is weighing heavy on you today. It's hard to know through written words if someone is upset or making a joke. I hope you have a good day as well. I hope the woman are found and no harm has come to them.

 

[layer]

I haven't heard of the missing woman.

Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

 

[mrjitty]

I was listening to MS new episode discussing the recent filings and I'm even more convinced that "leaks" were intentional and they tried to throw someone under the bus for it, but they really were the ones that wanted the info leaked so they could gauge public opinion. It is beyond me how this isn't a simple ruling. They did wrong and tried to blame others, someone is now dead because of this and they still continue to play games and it feels a lot like gaslighting. No wonder the judge is annoyed and seems biased. These men are making a mockery of her courtroom. They are creating a $hiT$show and then complaining it stinks.

Imagine we had no idea what the defense was going to be before trial. No leaks, no crime scene photos, no Odin discussions, no delays and drama, just silence from both sides until the trial starts. Imagine how much smoother the jury selection would be. Imagine how much less money this would cost. At some point we have to ask who benefits from this circus?

Murder Sheet's KG's musing on why DH did not go hard on blaming MW for everything inspired me to go read the defence follow-up memo and count how many lines were devoted to MW's theft. It's 3 lines on page 5.

I fully expected AB to finally take the Court into his confidence about what happened that day. Instead he stayed silent. In the strongest part of DH's presentation, other attorneys offered insights into what they saw as standard practice, and how anyone could be betrayed by a friend. That is good as far as it goes, except for some reason, the man himself didn't offer that testimony.

So you end up in this strange situation where the other attorneys said they consult with lawyers and non-lawyers in trial prep, but AB did not actually say that is what he was doing. Indeed he has not clarified the relationship since October.

That's odd to me. I wonder if it is because he really can't risk saying anything. For instance, I would love to know if his insurers accept this story.

Personally i suspect he will have a bit of a credibility issue when so much of his relationship with MW was not disclosed in October.

my 02c. we shall see what happens. My guess, a slap on the wrist.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Murder Sheet's KG's musing on why DH did not go hard on blaming MW for everything inspired me to go read the defence follow-up memo and count how many lines were devoted to MW's theft. It's 3 lines on page 5.

I fully expected AB to finally take the Court into his confidence about what happened that day. Instead he stayed silent. In the strongest part of DH's presentation, other attorneys offered insights into what they saw as standard practice, and how anyone could be betrayed by a friend. That is good as far as it goes, except for some reason, the man himself didn't offer that testimony.

So you end up in this strange situation where the other attorneys said they consult with lawyers and non-lawyers in trial prep, but AB did not actually say that is what he was doing. Indeed he has not clarified the relationship since October.

That's odd to me. I wonder if it is because he really can't risk saying anything. For instance, I would love to know if his insurers accept this story.

Personally i suspect he will have a bit of a credibility issue when so much of his relationship with MW was not disclosed in October.

my 02c. we shall see what happens. My guess, a slap on the wrist.

Since MW has his own court case going, maybe they thought it was best not to say anything that might influence it.
MW's motion to dismiss is just 9 days away.

04/11/2024

Pretrial Conference Session: 03/07/2024 1:30 PM, Rescheduled Session: 03/27/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 04/11/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Comment: Defense Motion to Dismiss

 

[sunshineray]

I'm having a very difficult time understanding why it's a problem for anyone that defense attorneys hire their own experts.

The only thing I see different in this case from others is the measly amount of money the judge is forking over to the defense team to defend their client.

In this high profile double murder case, you can see how little money they have received up to that date in the link below.

Motion for Parity in Resources, To Reconsider the Denial of Anticipated Defense Costs, or to Exclude Evidence

drive.google.com

i believe the pro

They were likely relaying personal information of a possible defense witness to the court. The defense wanted the information to be confidential so that the prosecution could not infer the defense's strategy from the information.

Aren't all their witnesses, while possibly under seal from the public, part of defense discovery to the prosecution, no surprises allowed on either side?

 

[Boxer]

I was listening to MS new episode discussing the recent filings and I'm even more convinced that "leaks" were intentional and they tried to throw someone under the bus for it, but they really were the ones that wanted the info leaked so they could gauge public opinion. It is beyond me how this isn't a simple ruling. They did wrong and tried to blame others, someone is now dead because of this and they still continue to play games and it feels a lot like gaslighting. No wonder the judge is annoyed and seems biased. These men are making a mockery of her courtroom. They are creating a $hiT$show and then complaining it stinks.

Imagine we had no idea what the defense was going to be before trial. No leaks, no crime scene photos, no Odin discussions, no delays and drama, just silence from both sides until the trial starts. Imagine how much smoother the jury selection would be. Imagine how much less money this would cost. At some point we have to ask who benefits from this circus?

Agree.
Basically they are saying to the court, prove it wasn't just negligence.

JG thinking she was dealing with normal officers of the court who would be contrite about a negligent leak.

MOO Nope, surprise it was intentional, and by JG not formally having a hearing they skated.

 

[WildHuncher]

Both weights work in his gun. In 2017 he’s using one weight. Years later, he’s buying the other more often. It probably depends on what’s available and cheaper. So it means basically nothing.

The main point of different weights is how much penetration you’re looking for. How much powder versus how much lead in a fixed cartridge volume. The way the formula for kinetic energy works, the velocity term is squared, so the lighter bullet (which will also have more room in the cartridge for propellant) flies faster, straighter, and penetrates deeper. But there’s such a thing as over penetration, a hazard to whomever or whatever may be behind the target. There tend to be minor differences in felt recoil and accuracy as well.

I may have misread the question here. You want to know, “What if the lab tested a DIFFERENT weight of cartridge when it compared tool marks and found a match?”

Purely IMHO, they would be likely to use the same weight and brand if they can possibly procure it. If they did use a mismatched test round but the tool marks even so were identical that would be no surprise. One might expect that the same gun will put the same marks on cartridges shaped to cycle through it.

 

[Boxer]

I may have misread the question here. You want to know, “What if the lab tested a DIFFERENT weight of cartridge when it compared tool marks and found a match?”

Purely IMHO, they would be likely to use the same weight and brand if they can possibly procure it. If they did use a mismatched test round but the tool marks even so were identical that would be no surprise. One might expect that the same gun will put the same marks on cartridges shaped to cycle through it.

MOO The brass part where the extractor and ejector dent the casing are going to be same.

 

[AugustWest]

i believe the pro

Aren't all their witnesses, while possibly under seal from the public, part of defense discovery to the prosecution, no surprises allowed on either side?

The disclosure will (in most cases) be made, it is simply a matter of when the disclosure must be made. I can't give an affirmative answer to your question, as I don't know what the confidential information exactly is.

See: Rule 16. Discovery and Inspection

That's a Federal Rule, but I am pretty sure IN has a very similarly worded Rule 16. If not, someone can correct me.

 

[sunshineray]

The disclosure will (in most cases) be made, it is simply a matter of when the disclosure must be made. I can't give an affirmative answer to your question, as I don't know what the confidential information exactly is.

See: Rule 16. Discovery and Inspection

That's a Federal Rule, but I am pretty sure IN has a very similarly worded Rule 16. If not, someone can correct me.

It sounded like it's asking for money for a witness, so the particular witnesses forte is being kept ex parte? Just guessing

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Murder Sheet's KG's musing on why DH did not go hard on blaming MW for everything inspired me to go read the defence follow-up memo and count how many lines were devoted to MW's theft. It's 3 lines on page 5.

I fully expected AB to finally take the Court into his confidence about what happened that day. Instead he stayed silent. In the strongest part of DH's presentation, other attorneys offered insights into what they saw as standard practice, and how anyone could be betrayed by a friend. That is good as far as it goes, except for some reason, the man himself didn't offer that testimony.

So you end up in this strange situation where the other attorneys said they consult with lawyers and non-lawyers in trial prep, but AB did not actually say that is what he was doing. Indeed he has not clarified the relationship since October.

That's odd to me. I wonder if it is because he really can't risk saying anything. For instance, I would love to know if his insurers accept this story.

Personally i suspect he will have a bit of a credibility issue when so much of his relationship with MW was not disclosed in October.

my 02c. we shall see what happens. My guess, a slap on the wrist.

You and I are in agreement here, it’s a little shifty for sure how the role of MW had been defined.
I imagine the contempt will amount to a slap. I know you’ve heard my opinion on what should follow on the civil side.

 

[AugustWest]

MOO The brass part where the extractor and ejector dent the casing are going to be same.

From what I understand, firearm toolmark analysis is a subjective discipline, changing from one person to another. What one considers "same" may be a complete miss to another expert.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

In regards to the bullet, I find it interesting that RA brought a loaded gun with him that day when an unloaded gun would have probably provided the same results. I wonder why he loaded the gun and how many bullets he brought. One can assume he never intended to discharge the gun so I wonder if cocking the gun played into his fantasy.
From my limited research of Norse religion and Odinism, I have not found any connection to guns. IMO a group of 3-5 men wouldn’t need a firearm to control teenage girls.
One man acting alone would.

AMO