Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[Pyrite]

This is where it is going to matter a great deal what he said in his police interview, and the testimony of the officer who took the tip, and all that background you refer to.

The defence will obviously dispute accuracy (they already did in Franks)

The prosecution will point to verifiable detail in the tip (the girls he saw, his IMEI number, the specifics of what he was doing etc). e.g. if the IMEI is correct, is there any reason to think the time is wrong? Especially if cross checked against the 3 girls?

I think one powerful argument here is the tip sheet itself is the contemporaneous record and thus more reliable than what the accused says years later.

But sure, they will dispute it. As to whether they try to exclude it, I don't know.

Do you know if the original tip sheet is what is misfiled or will it be a typed version of the hand written note that was misfiled and the original tip sheet available? If the original handwritten notes are gone, the can the typed and filed notes be considered contemporaneous?

I thought LE said they had no electronic evidence against RA, re the imei. If I’m wrong and they can place RA on the bridge electronically at the same time the victims were on the bridge, then there is no reason to think the time is wrong.

I tend to be skeptical the same group of girls who saw bridge guy are the same group of girls RA saw. Quite a few people were on the trails that day and the juveniles descriptions of BG seems off in comparison to RA, especially the height.

I can’t wait until the trial and seeing the evidence all tested by our adversarial system.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The suggestion (pure conjecture) that RA's phone was not with him that day - is specious,

Ouch! (RSBM)

RA/stock-ticker - he states to LE he had his phone with him, shared his memory of the use of his phone in his interview(s). If we believe RA's report that he was on the 1st platform, if we believe his jacket color, etc.. why do we not believe he had his phone on and working w/ him at the trials as he's reported?

The reason I don't believe the prosecution have the data, is because if they did, it'd be in the AA to prove the timeline IMO. And by the same token, if the defence had the exculpatory data to prove RAs timing, the arrest would have collapsed and he wouldn't be in prison.

It might be they don't cite the phone data in the AA because for some reason it isn't specific enough on geo.

As you say, we will find out

 

[Vaderman]

If you were to find yourself in a similar situation and you had tipped in you were on the bridge wearing BG clothes but completely innocent when your picture was still being broadcast around the country with appeals to identity would you walk across the street from work to the Sheriff’s with your attorney and get it straightened out?

Would you go on ahead and confess multiple times to the pervert murder of two girls to those who love you, your wife and Mother, while you are being detained as a suspect?

Do you scare young girls by aggressively approaching them as they are in a vulnerable position on a very high bridge with no railing to the point they video you out of fear?

You don’t seem at all like a grump if anything you’re vulnerable by being distracted.

RA wasn’t oblivious, as you say you are, he had a disagreeable air to the girls on the trail and A & L were scared of him on sight.

If you still identify with RA then when out on creep walks make sure your alibis are in order!

IMO

I am, of course, mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I really would hate to find myself in this position.

Another example of bad luck--when I'm deep in thought, my brow is usually furrowed. It's frustrating the frequency in which I'm asked why I look [insert negative emotion here] by people, when in reality, I'm wondering what I should make for dinner that evening.

Another example, using the language of those claiming to see RA is that he was "walking with purpose". I'm a highly caffeinated individual, so, with that in mind, I'm now 1) a fast-paced walker who 2) keeps his head/eyes "hidden" (or, more realistically, tilted towards the ground) and 3) with an unintentional scowl splayed across my face.

 

[mrjitty]

Do you know if the original tip sheet is what is misfiled or will it be a typed version of the hand written note that was misfiled and the original tip sheet available? If the original handwritten notes are gone, the can the typed and filed notes be considered contemporaneous?

I thought LE said they had no electronic evidence against RA, re the imei. If I’m wrong and they can place RA on the bridge electronically at the same time the victims were on the bridge, then there is no reason to think the time is wrong.

I tend to be skeptical the same group of girls who saw bridge guy are the same group of girls RA saw. Quite a few people were on the trails that day and the juveniles descriptions of BG seems off in comparison to RA, especially the height.

I can’t wait until the trial and seeing the evidence all tested by our adversarial system.

MOO

I don't know the answer sorry.

Re the IMEI, I simply meant if the IMEI (a string of many numbers) is correctly recorded, then you can also argue the time was correctly recorded. The tip narrative was quite detailed.

Anyway - in a month we'll see

 

[zh0r4]

It’s in the documents that were released the timeline.

You can argue over times all you want but we shall see at the trail who saw what.

I am limited to the article that will open for me in the EU.

Richard Allen Probable Cause Affidavit: Delphi Murders Document

See the criminal complaint probable cause affidavit and charging document against Richard Allen in the Delphi murders.

heavy.com

This also stands out to me from one witness


Then another girl said


Then we look at the guy crossing the bridge who
is doing that exact same walk/pose across the bridge.

This is incorrect, can you access official documents? Or are specific news outlets blocked for you?

Here is the info (sourced with pages below):

Bbm

“Betsy Blair's first description of the man she saw on the bridge was memorialized in sketch #2 illustrated on February 17, 2017 (3 days after the girls were found) but not released to the public until April 22, 2019 - following Superintendent Doug Carter's press conference.

On February 17, 2017, Betsy Blair met with State Police sketch artist Taylor D. Bryant and provided a description of the man she observed from 50 feet away on the Monon High Bridge - the same man that Liggett claimed in his affidavit was the killer. Betsy Blair told the sketch artist that the man she (Betsy Blair) observed was:

• A white male
• Age 20
• Had Brown Curly Hair,
• Medium build

Find attached and marked as Exhibit 103 the unredacted "Facial Identification Reference Sheet" (filed as confidential) that contains the description that Betsy Blair provided to the sketch artist. Also, find attached a copy of the sketch that Taylor D. Bryant produced from Betsy Blair's description of the man she observed on the bridge, marked as Exhibit 104. This illustration is also called "sketch #2" (because it was released to the public second). Upon looking at the sketch, Betsy Blair told the sketch artist that the illustration was a "10 out of 10" for accuracy.

The Unified Command did not release the Betsy Blair sketch to the public for over two years. Instead, they first released the Sarah Carbaugh sketch, also called "sketch #1" (because it was released to the public first). The Sarah Carbaugh sketch was illustrated by FBI sketch artist "Plantz" from Detroit on June 19, 2017, and released to the public on July 17, 2017. Who was the person that Sarah Carbaugh was describing in her sketch? According to Liggett's affidavit, at approximately 3:57 pm, Sarah Carbaugh observed a man walking westbound on county road 300 north. Sarah Carbaugh was headed eastbound on county road 300 N, operating her motor vehicle while simultaneously observing this man walking on the road toward her on the opposite side of the road. This is the same man that Sarah Carbaugh described for the sketch artist on June 19, 2017. <snip>

Roughly two years later, in March 2019, Betsy Blair met with Tony Liggett, frustrated that her sketch (sketch #2) had not been released to the public. Betsy was frustrated because sketch #1, which had been released to the public almost two years before, did not match the man that she (Betsy Blair) observed on the high bridge. Betsy even commented that sketch #1 was "wrong." <snip>

During her March 7, 2017, interview, Betsy Blair was talking with two members of Unified Command: Kevin Hammond and Tony Liggett At this interview, Betsy Blair told Liggett, face-to-face, that the man she (Betsy Blair) observed on the high bridge fit the following description:

-The man was slender and youthful looking.

-He was more "boyish" looking.

-The man was in his 20s to early 30s.

-His hair seemed "poofy" just as the sketch portrayed.

-He had no facial hair, that she can remember.

Finally, on April 22, 2019, Unified Command released Betsy Blair's sketch #2 to the general public. In fact, upon its release, Superintendent Doug Carter commented that the man in Blair's sketch #2 was "responsible for the murders " Also, at the time of the release of sketch #2, Doug Carter also stated that sketch #1 had now become "secondary" to the investigation.”


Exhibits cited:

144 Blair's 10 out of 10 comment is memorialized in a report identified as "Incident No. 17-0091-S03. This 10 out of 10 wording can be found in the second full paragraph. Find attached the unredacted report marked as Exhibit 105.
145 Find attached a screenshot from WTHR news (Indianapolis) showing the release of sketch #1, Exhibit 106
146 See exhibit 105 (Incident No. 17-0091-S03) last sentence of second paragraph.
147 Find attached a flash drive containing Betsy Blair's March 7, 2019, interview with Tony Liggett, marked as Exhibit 107. Betsy Blair states that sketch #1 with the "golf hat" is "wrong" at the 11:37:55 mark.
148 Liggett's affidavit, marked as Exhibit 108, and also Exhibit 107 at the 11:42:10 mark.
149 Liggett's Affidavit for Search Warrant.
150 Exhibit 107 at the 11:42:10 mark.
151 Find attached Doug Carters' April 22, 2019, press conference in which Betsy Blair's sketch #2 is unveiled to the public. It is marked as Exhibit 109.
152 The fact that Sarah Carbaugh's sketch #1 had become secondary to the investigation is confusing, considering Liggett's and Holeman's claim that sketch #1 and sketch #2 are the same person.

Source: page 105-108
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

 

[Jade]

Who did you walk past at 3:30 pm on that date in 2017?

People simply don't remember every detail of their lives, or recall all that they saw/did/said, etc....

He put himself there, so that really isn't in dispute.

RA and witnesses didn’t have to remember back to 2017 they gave their statements within days.

Certainly if two young girls who were on the same trails as I were missing and frantically being looked for that very night then found dead I would be able to remember people I saw at about what time.

Most of us have at least somewhat of schedules and getting in the car then driving to go for a walk on trails where there are limited visitors creates a framework for memory.


all imo

 

[Betty P]

If it was me, I'd figure LE had cleared me and carried on to trying to find the killer.
If, as you suggest, RA was such an obvious suspect after making the tip, why didn't detectives walk across the street from the Sheriff’s with the district attorney and get it straightened out?

JMO, one key reason: For the first couple of years, LE and locals didn't want to think it was someone from their own community, especially not some "average white guy local" with no relevant criminal record. It's a version of the "perfect world" syndrome where LE and citizens think they've taken all precautions and there's no one in their community who would commit such horrible crimes. It has to be some horrible criminal who was passing through or came out from the big city to prey on children. It's a very common mistake.

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

RA and witnesses didn’t have to remember back to 2017 they gave their statements within days.

Certainly if two young girls who were on the same trails as I were missing and frantically being looked for that very night then found dead I would be able to remember people I saw at about what time.

Most of us have at least somewhat of schedules and getting in the car then driving to go for a walk on trails where there are limited visitors creates a framework for memory.


all imo

Who did you see yesterday at 10:00 am? Was their hair poofy? Did they have any tattoos? Etc...

ETA: sorry, posted early on accident; added neuroscience journal article

Link: The Neuroscience of Memory: Implications for the Courtroom

 

[Salah11]

This is incorrect, can you access official documents? Or are specific news outlets blocked for you?

Here is the info (sourced with pages below):

Bbm

“Betsy Blair's first description of the man she saw on the bridge was memorialized in sketch #2 illustrated on February 17, 2017 (3 days after the girls were found) but not released to the public until April 22, 2019 - following Superintendent Doug Carter's press conference.

On February 17, 2017, Betsy Blair met with State Police sketch artist Taylor D. Bryant and provided a description of the man she observed from 50 feet away on the Monon High Bridge - the same man that Liggett claimed in his affidavit was the killer. Betsy Blair told the sketch artist that the man she (Betsy Blair) observed was:

• A white male
• Age 20
• Had Brown Curly Hair,
• Medium build

Find attached and marked as Exhibit 103 the unredacted "Facial Identification Reference Sheet" (filed as confidential) that contains the description that Betsy Blair provided to the sketch artist. Also, find attached a copy of the sketch that Taylor D. Bryant produced from Betsy Blair's description of the man she observed on the bridge, marked as Exhibit 104. This illustration is also called "sketch #2" (because it was released to the public second). Upon looking at the sketch, Betsy Blair told the sketch artist that the illustration was a "10 out of 10" for accuracy.

The Unified Command did not release the Betsy Blair sketch to the public for over two years. Instead, they first released the Sarah Carbaugh sketch, also called "sketch #1" (because it was released to the public first). The Sarah Carbaugh sketch was illustrated by FBI sketch artist "Plantz" from Detroit on June 19, 2017, and released to the public on July 17, 2017. Who was the person that Sarah Carbaugh was describing in her sketch? According to Liggett's affidavit, at approximately 3:57 pm, Sarah Carbaugh observed a man walking westbound on county road 300 north. Sarah Carbaugh was headed eastbound on county road 300 N, operating her motor vehicle while simultaneously observing this man walking on the road toward her on the opposite side of the road. This is the same man that Sarah Carbaugh described for the sketch artist on June 19, 2017. <snip>

Roughly two years later, in March 2019, Betsy Blair met with Tony Liggett, frustrated that her sketch (sketch #2) had not been released to the public. Betsy was frustrated because sketch #1, which had been released to the public almost two years before, did not match the man that she (Betsy Blair) observed on the high bridge. Betsy even commented that sketch #1 was "wrong." <snip>

During her March 7, 2017, interview, Betsy Blair was talking with two members of Unified Command: Kevin Hammond and Tony Liggett At this interview, Betsy Blair told Liggett, face-to-face, that the man she (Betsy Blair) observed on the high bridge fit the following description:

-The man was slender and youthful looking.

-He was more "boyish" looking.

-The man was in his 20s to early 30s.

-His hair seemed "poofy" just as the sketch portrayed.

-He had no facial hair, that she can remember.

Finally, on April 22, 2019, Unified Command released Betsy Blair's sketch #2 to the general public. In fact, upon its release, Superintendent Doug Carter commented that the man in Blair's sketch #2 was "responsible for the murders " Also, at the time of the release of sketch #2, Doug Carter also stated that sketch #1 had now become "secondary" to the investigation.”


Exhibits cited:

144 Blair's 10 out of 10 comment is memorialized in a report identified as "Incident No. 17-0091-S03. This 10 out of 10 wording can be found in the second full paragraph. Find attached the unredacted report marked as Exhibit 105.
145 Find attached a screenshot from WTHR news (Indianapolis) showing the release of sketch #1, Exhibit 106
146 See exhibit 105 (Incident No. 17-0091-S03) last sentence of second paragraph.
147 Find attached a flash drive containing Betsy Blair's March 7, 2019, interview with Tony Liggett, marked as Exhibit 107. Betsy Blair states that sketch #1 with the "golf hat" is "wrong" at the 11:37:55 mark.
148 Liggett's affidavit, marked as Exhibit 108, and also Exhibit 107 at the 11:42:10 mark.
149 Liggett's Affidavit for Search Warrant.
150 Exhibit 107 at the 11:42:10 mark.
151 Find attached Doug Carters' April 22, 2019, press conference in which Betsy Blair's sketch #2 is unveiled to the public. It is marked as Exhibit 109.
152 The fact that Sarah Carbaugh's sketch #1 had become secondary to the investigation is confusing, considering Liggett's and Holeman's claim that sketch #1 and sketch #2 are the same person.

Source: page 105-108
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

You are ignoring the girls who see him walking towards the bridge and who RA also admits to seeing 2/3 girls as he walked that afternoon. The timeline ties him to a specific period and lets see at trial how it plays out.

If he says he was there at 1.30 but those witnesses saw him at a different time and can place the girls there and we know the time they got dropped off then he is lying.

It’s specific news outlet that won’t open for me being in the EU.

Mooooooo

 

[zh0r4]

You are ignoring the girls who see him walking towards the bridge and who RA also admits to seeing 2/3 girls as he walked that afternoon. The timeline ties him to a specific period and lets see at trial how it plays out.

If he says he was there at 1.30 but those witnesses saw him at a different time and can place the girls there and we know the time they got dropped off then he is lying.

It’s specific news outlet that won’t open for me being in the EU.

Mooooooo

Respectfully, I am not ignoring anything. I have asked you for an official record of these witnesses, could you please provide a source for this information about witnesses?

I am providing citations submitted on official documentation.

Furthermore, regarding RA’s timeline:

bbm

“In trying to provide Liggett and Mullin a timeline of when he (Richard Allen) was at the trail, Richard stated he arrived at the trail around noon. Later in the interview, Richard Allen told Liggett and Mullin that he probably left the trail around 1:30 pm.”

Exhibits:

156 Find attached Richard Allen's October 13, 2022 (Exhibit 110), interview. Richard Allen does not realize that he is being interrogated as a suspect until much later in the interview.
157 Exhibit 110 Richard tells Liggett and prosecutor investigator Mullins from the prosecutor's office that he had arrived around noon at the 10:57:40 mark.
158 Exhibit 110 at the 11:53:43 mark.



Source for quote & image:
page 109
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

 

[Cyber sleuth]

You are ignoring the girls who see him walking towards the bridge and who RA also admits to seeing 2/3 girls as he walked that afternoon. The timeline ties him to a specific period and lets see at trial how it plays out.

If he says he was there at 1.30 but those witnesses saw him at a different time and can place the girls there and we know the time they got dropped off then he is lying.

It’s specific news outlet that won’t open for me being in the EU.

Mooooooo

There will also be corresponding phone presence to the eyewitnesses that were on the trails that day.
IMO the only person without a phone on the trails at ANY time that day is RA. Even though he said he did in his interview.
AMO

 

[layer]

Apparently only one clueless CO and RA knew about the tip.

So you're suggesting that DD basically said:
"Hey, I understand you're telling me that you were there and were dressed similarly to BG. I'll just set this tip aside for the next five years and not tell anyone. Thanks for sharing!"
This makes sense to you?

 

[Salah11]

Respectfully, I am not ignoring anything. I have asked you for an official record of these witnesses, could you please provide a source for this information about witnesses?

I am providing citations submitted on official documentation.

Furthermore, regarding RA’s timeline:

bbm

“In trying to provide Liggett and Mullin a timeline of when he (Richard Allen) was at the trail, Richard stated he arrived at the trail around noon. Later in the interview, Richard Allen told Liggett and Mullin that he probably left the trail around 1:30 pm.”

Exhibits:

156 Find attached Richard Allen's October 13, 2022 (Exhibit 110), interview. Richard Allen does not realize that he is being interrogated as a suspect until much later in the interview.
157 Exhibit 110 Richard tells Liggett and prosecutor investigator Mullins from the prosecutor's office that he had arrived around noon at the 10:57:40 mark.
158 Exhibit 110 at the 11:53:43 mark.

View attachment 494727

Source for quote & image:
page 109
https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf

photographs included a photo of the Monon High Bridge taken at 12:43 p.m, and another one taken at 1:26 p.m. of the bench East of the Freedom Bridge. She advised after she took the photo of the bench they started walking back toward Freedom Bridge. She advised that was when they encountered the man who matched the description of the photograph taken from Victim 2's video, described the man she encountered on the trail as wearing a blue or black windbreaker jacket. She advised the jacket had a collar and he had his hood up from the clothing underneath his jacket She advised he was wearing baggy jeans and was taller than her. She advised her head came up to approximately his shoulder. She advised said "Hi" to the man and that he said nothing back. She stated he was walking with a purpose like he knew where he was going. She stated he had his hands in his pockets and kept his head down. She advised she did not get a good look at his face but believed him to be a white male. The girls advised after encountering the male they continued their walk across Freedom Bridge and the old railroad bridge.

So he was seen walking towards the bridge after 1.26pm which makes his claim he was gone by 1.30 laughable. This is from affidavit and I copied and pasted.

 

[layer]

-The man was slender and youthful looking.
-He was more "boyish" looking.
-The man was in his 20s to early 30s.
-His hair seemed "poofy" just as the sketch portrayed.
-He had no facial hair, that she can remember.

Now I'm wondering if Betsy will be called by the P or the D.

 

[FrostedGlass]

There will also be corresponding phone presence to the eyewitnesses that were on the trails that day.
IMO the only person without a phone on the trails at ANY time that day is RA. Even though he said he did in his interview.
AMO

Please help me out here.
I've seen zero evidence that he was without his phone. Where does that come from?

 

[layer]

So he was seen walking towards the bridge after 1.26pm which makes his claim he was gone by 1.30 laughable. This is from affidavit and I copied and pasted.

The girls advised after encountering the male they continued their walk across Freedom Bridge and the old railroad bridge.
I'm having trouble following this narrative. Is this suggesting that they encountered BG after the murders, on his way out, and then they continued on across Freedom Bridge and Monon High Bridge? What time was that?

 

[zh0r4]

So he was seen walking towards the bridge after 1.26pm which makes his claim he was gone by 1.30 laughable. This is from affidavit and I copied and pasted.

There is no proof RA is BG, this would be very hard to prove without other evidence besides the grainiest 2017 video I’ve ever seen. It could literally be anyone. BG video doesn’t = an eyewitness identified RA, that is inaccurate statement unless the eyewitness identified RA specifically as BG. Otherwise it is only speculation. The eye witnesses have been documented to say something different, unless there is another eyewitness they are referring to in the SWA? I assumed the D was following up on the witnesses in the SWA to draw the FM-since the goal of the FM is to get the SWA thrown out due to falsification of grounds for a SWA from my understanding?

 

[Jade]

So you're suggesting that DD basically said:
"Hey, I understand you're telling me that you were there and were dressed similarly to BG. I'll just set this tip aside for the next five years and not tell anyone. Thanks for sharing!"
This makes sense to you?

No, I’m not suggesting that.

No: “Hey, I understand you’re telling me…”

CO was clueless. No understand.

The CO understood nothing.

RA said I was there in those clothes at that time frame on the bridge and the CO ignored that and wrote down about the other girls on the trails.

You will have to ask the CO why he was so incompetent.

RA had the advantage in that meeting. Clever to agree to meet at a grocery store and do an out of office statement I bet he was thrilled with the CO.

all imo

 

[susane7]

No, I’m not suggesting that.

No: “Hey, I understand you’re telling me…”

CO was clueless. No understand.

The CO understood nothing.

RA said I was there in those clothes at that time frame on the bridge and the CO ignored that and wrote down about the other girls on the trails.

You will have to ask the CO why he was so incompetent.

RA had the advantage in that meeting. Clever to agree to meet at a grocery store and do an out of office statement I bet he was thrilled with the CO.

all imo

From what my understanding, RA didn't said about his clothes on 2017, he said about the clothes in 2022.

 

[Jade]

From what my understanding, RA didn't said about his clothes on 2017, he said about the clothes in 2022.

Thank you for the correction!