Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[AugustWest]

A staged confession is a fascinating idea. I've been an attorney for 32 years, but don't work in criminal (other than some pro bono I've done), so maybe this happens. But on its face it seems unfathomable to me as a realistic strategy.

"You've really done it this time, RA, incriminating yourself. Better go out there, give it your all and confess more."

 

[TL4S]

All outgoing phone calls made are recorded and subject to monitoring. It says that very clearly to the person making the call and the person receiving the call. I learned all about that in the Murdaugh trial.

That's why I wonder if, by definition, those phone calls could still be categorized in with the "State actors or their agents." By telling his wife, he was knowingly telling prison staff. IDK. It's probably a stretch, but I'm just curious.

 

[layer]

Why would that be the centerpiece of the PCA of the murders of Abby & Libby? The State charged Defendant Allen with the double homicide of these two young girls.

I can see it being withheld at trial for being prejudicial (so called "prior bad acts") but isn't factual prejudicial information exactly what you want in the PCA?
Maybe it's just me.

 

[zh0r4]

Sorry it has taken so long to respond, @zh0r4 and sorry for the rambling answer. You ask some good questions, some of which are tough to answer because we have so many different sizes of LE agencies and each have their own way of doing things. Some have many more resources than others. That being said any size agency has the absolute responsibility to collect and maintain, in a safe and secure manner, any available evidence in relation to a crime. This includes hard evidence, circumstantial evidence, forensic evidence, digital evidence, and any and all paperwork accumulated during the course of an investigation.
A small town police department may only have one locked evidence room filled with file cabinets and boxes and may contain anything from murder weapons to drugs to recovered stolen goods whereas a big city police department has separate evidence rooms in each division and for each type of crime; homicide, drugs, sexual assault etc.
But I digress.
Recorded interviews should be backed up, duplicated whenever possible, and they should be accompanied by the officer’s hand written notes. Additionally, the officer should type up a report detailing the statements provided by the witness or suspect during the interview or interrogation. The statement should be signed and dated by both the interviewing officer(s) and by the witness/suspect. This provides a good backup up to a recording.
“Securing and protecting digital evidence has always been a problem. Officers and detectives fear that their digital evidence, which is usually stored on a DVD or flash drive, will become lost, broken, or corrupted. The DVR-type systems many agencies use are notorious for being unreliable, recording choppy or digitizing sound (robot noises instead of words).”

5 reasons digital recordings are valuable for suspect interviews

The formal recording of investigative interviews is critical to any criminal case

www.police1.com

Even when LE has good supporting evidence in the event a recording has been damaged or lost, it still may not be enough to convince a jury. They want to see it. When it is missing, some people will believe that the material was intentionally hidden. This in turn causes some jurors to lose trust in the all the prosecution’s evidence. So, yes, when a vital piece of evidence cannot be produced in its original form, it can have a detrimental effect on the prosecution’s case.
I have seen cases where digital evidence was lost or damaged in a current case, but not to the extent we see here. It seems the record keeping in this case was shoddy at best at the local level. I also think there was an over reliance on the FBI ORION system to keep track of everything.
It is more common for files on old cases to be lost. This usually occurs because old files are shifted around, maybe sent to a storage warehouse, to make room for newer cases and make accessibility easier for investigators.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/september/orion_092208

Unfortunately, even records at the highest level of government can be compromised.

DHS, DOJ And DOD Are All Customers Of SolarWinds Orion, The Source Of The Huge US Government Hack

A review of government contracts show the use of the hacked Orion tool is widespread, as the impact of the latest cyber espionage campaign is likely to be global.

www.forbes.com

“The National Institutes of Health, the Department of Energy, the DHS and the FBI are also amongst the many branches of the U.S. government that have previously bought the tool.”

All the new high tech reporting and collection systems are amazing, but due to conditions of human error, equipment breakdowns, weather/fire loss, it is sometimes the old fashioned handwritten report that saves the day.
There has been a huge push to go paperless in all factions of society, but electronic storage is fallible, too.
I still find it hard to believe that it was months before Investigators realized that the interview tapes had been overwritten. In a case such as this I would have thought investigators would be poring over the tapes to make sure they had not overlooked anything in a witness interview or suspect interrogation. The way the recording system was set up in the interview room leaves much to be desired. From what I understand, you flipped a switch when you entered the room to start recording and then you flipped it back as you left to stop recording. How many times have any of us “left the lights on” when we left a room? The fact that no one else noticed the issue in the intervening months would seem to show that there was little oversight, but also how few serious cases were being investigated in this small town.
I think most if not all of the many mistakes made in this case were due to poor management and inexperience. However, that is no excuse. No matter the size of your town or your budget, you have a moral responsibility to protect any evidence collected in a criminal matter whether you have all the high tech tools available to law enforcement or a pen, paper, and camera.

Thank you for the invaluable information & perspective!

One thing you mentioned that I hadn’t even thought of, was that the officer who takes a statement signs it and the witness/suspect also signs the statement. This makes total sense. I was curious how written statements were made “official”. Having both the LEO and the suspect/witness sign the statement clarifies that they are both in agreement re: what was said in the statement.

 

[Emma Peel]

"You've really done it this time, RA, incriminating yourself. Better go out there, give it your all and confess more."

oh, you're naughty.
(are you a criminal defense attny?) jk jmho

 

[FrostedGlass]

That's why I wonder if, by definition, those phone calls could still be categorized in with the "State actors or their agents." By telling his wife, he was knowingly telling prison staff. IDK. It's probably a stretch, but I'm just curious.

Phone calls are fair game for LE. All inmates should know this. IMO

 

[TL4S]

Phone calls are fair game for LE. All inmates should know this. IMO

For sure. There's been a lot of talk about the memo and why those phone calls were not included. I'm just wondering if maybe they sort of were included, under the context I've been talking about, only not spoken of directly, for whatever reason. I don't think I'm making sense, but that's okay.

 

[zh0r4]

Carter explained his agency learned a lot in the last nearly 2,100 days of investigating the Delphi murders. Without the help of the FBI, an arrest may have never happened.

“We didn't have the ability to take this much information as an agency. We relied heavily on the FBI,” Carter said. “And they were just simply magnificent early on, by bringing the Orion system in and allowing us in partnering with us and showing us how to collect and keep so much information. And it made us better. So, there are a lot of lessons. Because as all of us in our lifetime, we look back and think dang it, I missed it there. But one thing I'm sure we didn't do anything we knew is wrong. But we all wish we had some do-overs for sure.”

'I feel a sense of peace': ISP Superintendent Doug Carter speaks three days after Delphi arrest announcement

Thanks for this article. Do we know if it is true the FBI was “kicked off” the case circa 2021? I see the article you linked was from 2022. Was there ever an article that verified the FBI wasn’t working on the case 2021-2022?

 

[girlhasnoname]

I can see it being withheld at trial for being prejudicial (so called "prior bad acts") but isn't factual prejudicial information exactly what you want in the PCA?
Maybe it's just me.

It's just you lol. No prior bad acts allowed according to our local lawyer here.

 

[layer]

One thing you mentioned that I hadn’t even thought of, was that the officer who takes a statement signs it and the witness/suspect also signs the statement. This makes total sense. I was curious how written statements were made “official”. Having both the LEO and the suspect/witness sign the statement clarifies that they are both in agreement re: what was said in the statement.

OldCop is a peach, and I can see how you would get along. There's a good chance I may have had Dostoevsky in my sig at one time, too. I'm not going to hold it against a small town department making mistakes while trying their hardest to do their best. But this mess... this was unacceptable.
JMHO

 

[girlhasnoname]

"You've really done it this time, RA, incriminating yourself. Better go out there, give it your all and confess more."

Definitely not beyond the scope of possibility from what I've seen some Defense have 'suggested might be helpful' to their client, especially with this very creative D. It's a so stupid it's kind of smart thing IMO.

JMO

 

[layer]

It's just you lol. No prior bad acts allowed according to our local lawyer here.

Really? huh, I frequently find it's just me.
Thanks for the info!

 

[zh0r4]

Disorganization. For a start, anyone who placed themselves at the scene of the crime and resembles a suspect that was captioned on camera by one of the victims should have been gone over with a fine tooth comb. It is common knowledge that suspects insert themselves into an investigation.
A investigation can be likened to putting a puzzle together. You have all the pieces, but where do you start? You look at the picture on the box; the crime. Your find the corner pieces; the evidence. Next you work your way down all the sides; witnesses, suspects, interviews and interrogation. Now you go to the meat of the puzzle, (although by now some of the pieces are already falling into place); the lab results, digital forensics, and tip follow up, the analysis of all these pieces.
Now you just have a few pieces that fit in the remaing spaces. You have your POI’s.
There is one final step that is very important. You need to secure your completed puzzle to its backing if you want it to remain intact; preservation of evidence and case files. You don’t want somebody walking by and tipping the whole thing over.

Awkward, yes. Reasonable, no.

They had Richard Allen served to them on a platter by …..Richard Allen. The lack of follow up, the lost interview tapes, witness recollection. Memories fade over time. They were too scattered, not focused, things fell through the cracks. Things got out of control leaving an opening for all kinds of smoke and mirrors theories.

Do you have any opinion on the evidentiary value of an unspent cartridge? Have you ever heard of an unspent cartridge being used as a central piece of evidence in a homicide case?

How important is chain of custody? If a piece of evidence, like an unspent cartridge, was collected at the scene, what would chain of custody for the unspent cartridge entail?

Apologies for my kazillion questions, I really appreciate your input!

 

[Emma Peel]

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Gull has granted inmate depositions

I'm thinking this was expected. Did Gull have a choice, really?

And now I'm thinking through the minefield of this deposition and ... well.
Let's just take everyone to Vegas.

 

[TTF14]

OldCop is a peach, and I can see how you would get along. There's a good chance I may have had Dostoevsky in my sig at one time, too. I'm not going to hold it against a small town department making mistakes while trying their hardest to do their best. But this mess... this was unacceptable.
JMHO

I was shocked to hear so much evidence had been lost. I would have thought that more than EVER, they (local LE) would have been extraordinarily careful with evidence since none of them had ever (I'm assuming) seen a case like this in their life. They were in over their heads from the very beginning, and I wrongly assumed that would make them extra, extra vigilant. But, it seems they really didn't care about that and "filed" like I do....throw everything in one box and hope to find it later if I need it.

It's totally mind boggling to me. We count on these people. We pay them to protect us. And they can't even operate a DVR.

IMO MOO

 

[AugustWest]

Definitely not beyond the scope of possibility from what I've seen some Defense have 'suggested might be helpful' to their client, especially with this very creative D. It's a so stupid it's kind of smart thing IMO.

JMO

@girlhasnoname You may convince me of a great many things in this month leading to trial, my friend, but this is one idea I definitely will take a pass on!

I'm out for the evening; have a great night girlhasnoname and everyone!

 

[zh0r4]

Phone calls are fair game for LE. All inmates should know this. IMO

I think the dates, as per always, are really important. BM was saying RA is technically a “pretrial detainee”, and pretrial detainees have more rights than convicted inmates. I’m unsure if due process was violated or not, since he was not/is not a convicted inmate.

JMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

BIB - does this indicate, that he confessed to molesting other named girls? (i.e not the victims in this case)



(from the memo at page 10)

Yes indeed, that one was left dangling out there like a participle with Miss Marple's name on it.

 

[layer]

Convicting an innocent man would not be justice.

Convicting an innocent person is an even greater injustice than letting a guilty one go free. Along with demolishing an innocent person's life, you have helped the actual perpetrator go free.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think the dates, as per always, are really important. BM was saying RA is technically a “pretrial detainee”, and pretrial detainees have more rights than convicted inmates. I’m unsure if due process was violated or not, since he was not/is not a convicted inmate.

JMO.

This is an older article but it's the best I can do at the moment. Maybe I can find some legal statute or such later. I can tell you that during an Elkhart Co. murder trial they used a county jail inmate's phone call to his girlfriend against him. Convo's with one's attorney are protected... except for Richard Allen's in Westville.

From an Indianapolis attorneys' office. Lots if stuff a person should know in there:

Jail Phone Calls. Is Someone Really Listening?

Read our blog on jail phones calls. You'll be surprised as to how often they are monitored and used in criminal prosecution.

banksbrower.com

More often than not, we hear this misconception because defendants think that the only way for someone to hear the content of their calls is to listen to the conversation live, or as it happens. This couldn’t be further from the truth. In fact, every single phone call from any jail is monitored, recorded, data-based, and electronically stored by inmate name, gallery number, PIN number, date, time, duration of call, outgoing number, and recipient.