Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

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Yes, because if they aren't confessions containing info only the murderer knows, then they're just the ramblings
from a guy in the middle of a mental break. IMO
Not necessarily. He could be guilty and rambling on about his past deeds but being in a mental break could mean he was hazy on the facts. It doesn't necessarily mean he was lying.
 
Not necessarily. He could be guilty and rambling on about his past deeds but being in a mental break could mean he was hazy on the facts. It doesn't necessarily mean he was lying.
True!
And likewise, he could be innocent and rambling on about hallucinations due to psychosis. I suspect we will all have a better idea soon.
 
Perhaps I'm lost and you can help me. :) Maybe I missed an important detail?

First, you've got 10" there, but I'm thinking you mean 10' ?

If I understand this, a guard is filming 10 ft from a privileged client meeting in a private quiet room for *advertiser censored* time (for an hour, likely more?)

Is the guard in the private quiet room or outside of it. i.e. Are you describing a closed room situation w/windows and a camera outside the room such that being 10 ft away involves being on the other side of a closed room filming through a window?

Maybe we don't know.
Yes typo, that was supposed to be feet, not inches. I believe RA and his atty were in a closed room and the CO was recording through a glass window. I don't know if the window was cracked open. I'm assuming he could not hear what they were saying.

My point was even though they weren't voice recording the conversation, there was a possibly of lip reading to learn what RA was saying to his atty. IMO
 
It was feet. It was a typo that I didn't catch. I'll spell it out the next time. :)
Sure, but how many meters was it? :p
Do you think the state hired lip readers to transcribe confidential privileged attorney/client conversations? Or maybe less formal, like: This is what they said...
 
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Sure, but how many meters was it? :p
Do you think the state hired lip readers to transcribe confidential privileged attorney/client conversations? Or maybe less formal, like: This is what they said...
3.048 meters.
Well, they were recording the meetings but stopped before it got to court. Which indicates to me that they were in the wrong to do that. The P also directed the ISP to violate APRA rules and he also viewed ex parte files. With that said, I think there would be a lot of temptation to learn what he said to his atty.
 
Yes typo, that was supposed to be feet, not inches. I believe RA and his atty were in a closed room and the CO was recording through a glass window. I don't know if the window was cracked open. I'm assuming he could not hear what they were saying.

My point was even though they weren't voice recording the conversation, there was a possibly of lip reading to learn what RA was saying to his atty. IMO
got it! makes sense and thanks!
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> This defendant is kind of an enigma. I mean, he's eating poop in prison. And there are things that are very basic to his background that are still being disputed, I mean really basic info like his military service. I see some saying he definitely served, Coast Guard, number of years. This makes sense with what his wife has said about him keeping his hair short. I see others saying he served six weeks in the army. I have no idea. And does anyone remember he once used an alias? I won't name the name here because it's an actual person residing in Indiana, I think Monticello IN. Niner mentioned this way back when (found it). What I found weird is they moved RA up to Monticello for something shortly after his arrest. No idea, but there's not a word about it anymore. Maybe a clerical error, but nobody seems to know.
 
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I’m unfamiliar with this case. To clarify, she wasn’t indigent and the attorneys were being paid, correct?

Well, I'd guess she probably did qualify as indigent, but the attorneys were being paid. They were not public defenders. That's why it was/is so suspicious.

Also, as an aside, it's a great trial to follow. The fourth trial will be in October (for the victim's former Mother-in-law). The ex-wife still has not been arrested, but she will be. The murder happened 9 years ago.
 
If RA was behaving so badly, like a raving lunatic, and confessing to everybody he could find for the last year, why the heck would the defense not intervene? Why would they let that continue? They have insisted he is their pride and joy and they are devoted to him. Allowing his crazy behavior to continue was not in his best interest. They either don’t give rip about him or they allowed the crazy to continue because they felt it would somehow benefit the case.
They weren’t there for him because they were too busy writing farfetched fantasy, and saving their own rears.
Yes, the prison should have been trying to help and for all we know, they may have been trying. The only information we have at present is from the defense. Not very reliable so I’ll wait to hear the other side.

Logistically, how do you think they could have done this? I'm confused.
 
Logistically, how do you think they could have done this? I'm confused.
If they had been meeting with their client regularly and noticed a decline in his mental health they could have put in a request for him to transferred to a facility that has a mental health unit such as Wabash. IMO
It looks like his interim attorneys did this during December of last year after RA had been in custody for over 13 months. JMO

You can read more about the mental health services offered by Wabash in link.

Mental Health
 
Sure, but how many meters was it? :p
Do you think the state hired lip readers to transcribe confidential privileged attorney/client conversations? Or maybe less formal, like: This is what they said...

Ex sign language interpreter here with a degree in ASL.

Only about 40% of sounds can actually even been seen on the lips. Many letters are actually hard to distinguish from others, like B and P/M, N, and NG /CH and J.

Even for a a skilled lipreader (Deaf or hearing), about the highest accuracy that can be achieved is between 45-60% when lipreading a bit of speech several sentences long. The higher end of that relies on: good lighting (not so bright as to wash out the person's lips, not too dark), the speaker staying completely facing the lipreader the entire time, the person not speaking too slow (that over-exaggerates the mouth movements and makes them confusing) or too fast, not having facial hair, not having very pale lips. Accuracy is also increased if the lipreader's is familiar/accustomed to the speaker, the topic of conversation is known, etc.

Over half of lipreading is educated guessing to fill in the blanks. And even that doesn't always help.

From what I've been able to find, there isn't any sort of training & certification program for people who call themselves professional/expert lip readers. It is much a talent (even for Deaf people...some are bad lip readers) as it is a technical skill.

Many people get the impression that lipreading is easy because they were able to lipread a short phrase (like between a coach and a player at a sporting event). But that is world's away from an entire conversation where the topic can switch back and forth multiple times.

 
If he's the killer, that would appear to be the case.

I remember that too. Was that the same location where he was photographed in front of the BG sketch? I wonder what that photo would look like if behind him had been the still from Libby's phone rather than any of those dumb sketches.
Hi layer,
If you could find the link to this article and post it I would appreciate it.
Tricia
 
Ex sign language interpreter here with a degree in ASL.

Only about 40% of sounds can actually even been seen on the lips. Many letters are actually hard to distinguish from others, like B and P/M, N, and NG /CH and J.

Even for a a skilled lipreader (Deaf or hearing), about the highest accuracy that can be achieved is between 45-60% when lipreading a bit of speech several sentences long. The higher end of that relies on: good lighting (not so bright as to wash out the person's lips, not too dark), the speaker staying completely facing the lipreader the entire time, the person not speaking too slow (that over-exaggerates the mouth movements and makes them confusing) or too fast, not having facial hair, not having very pale lips. Accuracy is also increased if the lipreader's is familiar/accustomed to the speaker, the topic of conversation is known, etc.

Over half of lipreading is educated guessing to fill in the blanks. And even that doesn't always help.

From what I've been able to find, there isn't any sort of training & certification program for people who call themselves professional/expert lip readers. It is much a talent (even for Deaf people...some are bad lip readers) as it is a technical skill.

Many people get the impression that lipreading is easy because they were able to lipread a short phrase (like between a coach and a player at a sporting event). But that is world's away from an entire conversation where the topic can switch back and forth multiple times.

Very cool! Thank you for this.
 
Ex sign language interpreter here with a degree in ASL.

Only about 40% of sounds can actually even been seen on the lips. Many letters are actually hard to distinguish from others, like B and P/M, N, and NG /CH and J.

Even for a a skilled lipreader (Deaf or hearing), about the highest accuracy that can be achieved is between 45-60% when lipreading a bit of speech several sentences long. The higher end of that relies on: good lighting (not so bright as to wash out the person's lips, not too dark), the speaker staying completely facing the lipreader the entire time, the person not speaking too slow (that over-exaggerates the mouth movements and makes them confusing) or too fast, not having facial hair, not having very pale lips. Accuracy is also increased if the lipreader's is familiar/accustomed to the speaker, the topic of conversation is known, etc.

Over half of lipreading is educated guessing to fill in the blanks. And even that doesn't always help.

From what I've been able to find, there isn't any sort of training & certification program for people who call themselves professional/expert lip readers. It is much a talent (even for Deaf people...some are bad lip readers) as it is a technical skill.

Many people get the impression that lipreading is easy because they were able to lipread a short phrase (like between a coach and a player at a sporting event). But that is world's away from an entire conversation where the topic can switch back and forth multiple times.

Hi gremlin444,
Welcome to Websleuths. At Websleuths, we verify professionals from all over the world. Your information is kept in the strictest of confidence. We do this so people know that when you post something in the area of your expertise, what you are saying is true, and people reading can rely on your information. Please take a look at our long list of verified professionals.
We would love to verify you as a sign language interpreter.
Please email me at tricia@websleuths.com
 
Thank you! I guess it doesn't say anything about the validity of those phone calls, or any other statements, it only suggests that anything during the time in question should be suppressed due to the reasons listed within the memo. This is why I'm not comfortable just assuming any of the confessions are damning, even the phone calls, because at this point, we don't know. It's unclear to me if each confession needs to be listed specifically for individual suppression, or if a blanket suppression would cover it all, as it seems to be asked for here. Maybe if she denies this, they can make more specific motions to suppress for each confession?

As a practical matter, I think it is unlikely the Judge will rule to ban any and all confessions if you don't mention with precision all the various categories of confessions, the differing legal arguments applying to them and some kind of timeline.

Maybe such a timeline will be a separate exhibit, but then you still are missing the legal arguments.

To me the scope of the application is at p2 of the memo - it clearly refers to statements to guards and prisoners between mid March and June. IMO nothing else is included.

Allen's attorneys have conducted depositions, watched video from Allen's cell and other video from within the prison, reviewed prison records regarding Allen's detention, reviewed Allen's medical and psychiatric records, and listened to audio interviews of prison inmates and guards conducted by law enforcement 'officials. Through this process, Allen's attorneys have learned that Allen has been accused of making incriminating statements to both inmates and guards. Nearly all of these statements appear to have occurred between mid-March of 2023 and June of 2023. During this time frame, there also exists medical/psychiatric records suggesting that Allen was in a state of psychosis. (See attached Report ofTreatment Review Committee (TRC) Hearing).

Whatever the reason not to mention the calls, I think it is hard to maintain that the defence is asking for their suppression here.

02c
 
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