Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[girlhasnoname]

@girlhasnoname I apologize if I offended you. I think you are a great poster on this thread too. I used that language poetically, as I try (often failing) to write well. If you want me to, I will gladly delete the post for you. I was just attempting to say that you feel the defense is concocting a conspiratorial story to present their defense. You also often remind us you feel this is absurd and that the truth is less complicated and not a conspiracy against RA.

Do you have the exact wording of the gag order? I would like to see it if you do. Attorneys talk to office staff often about their cases. We talk to secretaries, legal assistants, receptionists. No one in the office normally signs a disclosure agreement.

Thanks, I think there are plenty of us on this thread that passionately post their opinion as we are allowed to do. So yes, it did feel a bit like a swipe if I'm honest.

I don't have a copy of the Gag Order at hand, but MW was NOT an employee of A Baldwin. He was working at a completely different company. He is not even a licensed lawyer. I have never heard of a Defense Attorney soliciting opinions from the general public on a case where there is a gag order in place. This is a first for me.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

3 FM dismissal Motions seems a bit of motion bombing to me, as are the many motions to dismiss their own contempt charges. I'm waiting on the other standard motions to be filed as I would expect to see in a double murder trial only a little over a month out.

JMO

How do you feel about NM filing the contempt charges "right now" in the first place? He's preparing for the biggest trial of his life and taking time out of the prep to focus on this?

Goes both ways.

 

[TTF14]

Thanks, I think there are plenty of us on this thread that passionately post their opinion as we are allowed to do. So yes, it did feel a bit like a swipe if I'm honest.

I don't have a copy of the Gag Order at hand, but MW was NOT an employee of A Baldwin. He was working at a completely different company. He is not even a licensed lawyer. I have never heard of a Defense Attorney soliciting opinions from the general public on a case where there is a gag order in place. This is a first for me.

MOO

I think the gag order only applies to talking to the media, not private conversations with "civilians." But, I could be wrong.

 

[mrjitty]

Do you have the exact wording of the gag order? I would like to see it if you do. Attorneys talk to office staff often about their cases. We talk to secretaries, legal assistants, receptionists. No one in the office normally signs a disclosure agreement.

I was wondering August, if his real problem is more with his PI?

Like imagine I discuss a complex commercial deal with a mentor who works elsewhere and isn't an attorney, and then they leak critical market info from the deal to financial press.

So while i get that lawyers do discuss cases informally with mentors for advice, if I allow a 3rd party access to sensitive material, and then they breach confidentiality, i think i could have a big PI problem?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Do you have the exact wording of the gag order? I would like to see it if you do. Attorneys talk to office staff often about their cases. We talk to secretaries, legal assistants, receptionists. No one in the office normally signs a disclosure agreement.

Here is an article that contains the gag order by Judge Gull:

Judge issues gag order following release of redacted court docs in arrest of Richard Allen for Delphi murders

 

[AugustWest]

I was wondering August, if his real problem is more with his PI?

Like imagine I discuss a complex commercial deal with a mentor who works elsewhere and isn't an attorney, and then they leak critical market info from the deal to financial press.

So while i get that lawyers do discuss cases informally with mentors for advice, if I allow a 3rd party access to sensitive material, and then they breach confidentiality, i think i could have a big PI problem?

Yes, you absolutely could have a big problem. In the example you have given, you have a fiduciary duty to your client to act in their best interest, and if you fail in that duty, you can expect to be disbarred for financial misdeeds. We must immediately put our client's funds into a trust so that the money is protected and accounted for. When attorneys take advantage of financial stuff, our bar associations come down extremely hard on us, as they should.

In the case of RA's defense team, they have a duty to act in the best interest of their client also. They failed that duty by speaking with someone who leaked confidential information. I believe the correct punishment is public reprimand and fines, but after the conclusion of the trial, as not to further introduce possible prejudice to the case,

 

[girlhasnoname]

Here is the main portion of the linked document above regarding the gag/protective order:

Counsel and their professional Staff and other personnel, LE, Court Personnel, Coroner, and all family members.

Are prohibited from discussing any information regarding this case to the public, to the media - directly or indirectly - by themselves or through any intermediary or themselves, in ANY form including social media platforms.

This sure cleared up any questions I had. I hope it helps.

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

Here is an article that contains the gag order by Judge Gull:

Judge issues gag order following release of redacted court docs in arrest of Richard Allen for Delphi murders

That language does indicate the court meant to include all office staff on both sides, as the language states the gag order applies to "their professional staff and other personnel." IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

That language does indicate the court meant to include all office staff on both sides, as the language states the gag order applies to "their professional staff and other personnel." IMO

I am sincerely wondering where you would think MW falls into these categories? He's not employed by AB.

The gag order does state they are not to disseminate any information to the public - I think MW falls into that category. He is part of the public if he is not an employee, or am I off track here?

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think the gag order only applies to talking to the media, not private conversations with "civilians." But, I could be wrong.

I posted it below for clarification.

 

[girlhasnoname]

How do you feel about NM filing the contempt charges "right now" in the first place? He's preparing for the biggest trial of his life and taking time out of the prep to focus on this?

Goes both ways.

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but I believe if the allegations are proven true R&B should be removed from the case immediately.

Especially for RA's 6th amendment rights to vigorous and competent counsel. I have stated before that if I were RA personally, I would have stuck with S&L and worked out an October trial date.

JMO

 

[vinayd]

Emails reveal details in Delphi murders evidence leak

Couple of things I need clarity on today. When people feel JG didn't properly remove the defense team through a hearing.... Is that in reference to the back and forth emails starting 10/6 when they notified the state and judge about the leak?

I see the court asked them a series of questions to be sure this was being properly investigated. To which I can only assume they did not reply since I don't see that in the filing.

The next email comes from prosecutor on the 12th informing them of the suicide.



The Judge replies telling them she will call a hearing and to cease work on the case until then. Is this the "improper removal"? I absolutely think they will face major penalties once this trial is over. What was she supposed to do once someone died behind these leaks. I'm just playing catch up on things I haven't read in full trying to understand why some feel she isn't playing fair. Seems fair to me.

 

[layer]

Since people are seeking free legal advice
Can anyone that has studied law explain gag orders to me. Obviously I have completely misunderstood them all these years (not the first time). I thought their purpose was to protect the rights of the accused in high profile cases. I always saw the arguments surrounding them as 1A vs 6A - the right to free speech vs the rights of the accused to a fair trial. Yet somewhere along the line it seems like they turned into a tool of the state. Where did I go off the rails? (See my sig)

 

[AugustWest]

I am sincerely wondering where you would think MW falls into these categories? He's not employed by AB.

The gag order does state they are not to disseminate any information to the public - I think MW falls into that category. He is part of the public if he is not an employee, or am I off track here?

MOO

The purpose of a gag order is to shield a jury from possible prejudice, not to hinder an attorney from effectively representing their client (prosecution client being the citizens of the state, defense client being the accused). The court, in my opinion, means don''t talk to the press. I feel MW falls into the category of "professional staff and other personnel.

I'll doxx myself a little. I am a medical malpractice defense attorney (not an ambulance chaser; I ruin those folks' days). I speak to physicians of all types during a typical case. Some are experts, some are just persons I know or have defended in the past. They don't all ask me for pay, they trust I won't share their opinions on the record, and I trust they won't divulge specific medical information outside of their advisement. It happens every day, all across the country, and no one is the wiser. If or when things go sideways, the court will discipline us, and we know not to deal with that specific professional ever again. It works itself out in the wash. I've never had a professional problem of that type.

 

[AugustWest]

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but I believe if the allegations are proven true R&B should be removed from the case immediately.

Especially for RA's 6th amendment rights to vigorous and competent counsel. I have stated before that if I were RA personally, I would have stuck with S&L and worked out an October trial date.

JMO

Is a person's right to counsel of their choosing not as sacrosanct as their right to a vigorous defense in your mind? A person has every right to defend themselves in this country, even though it is foolish to do so. That would make such a defense incompetent, right? Does the right not flow from the person, but rather from the government? Shouldn't we have self autonomy in those decisions?

 

[AugustWest]

Since people are seeking free legal advice
Can anyone that has studied law explain gag orders to me. Obviously I have completely misunderstood them all these years (not the first time). I thought their purpose was to protect the rights of the accused in high profile cases. I always saw the arguments surrounding them as 1A vs 6A - the right to free speech vs the rights of the accused to a fair trial. Yet somewhere along the line it seems like they turned into a tool of the state. Where did I go off the rails? (See my sig)

Gag orders are created simply to keep sensitive information that might prejudice a trial in any way from flowing into the hands of the public prematurely. Courts have spoken on this in the past (I'm too lazy and busy to go searching for case law today ). The courts must deal with the competing Constitutional interests of freedom of speech, press, and a defendant's right to fair trial when deciding whether to issue a gag order. Often the court comes down on the side of protecting a defendant's right to fair trial as the most important. So they gag the information in a case to (ironically in this case) protect the rights of the accused. It isn't really for the protection of the victims, although that definitely factors into the equation. That really falls into the field of "this Court doesn't feel that the freedom of speech/press extends so far as to upset common decency" (by exposing victims to unnecessary pain and anguish). I hope this helps!

ETA: helpful link

Link: What Is a Gag Order? Definition, Examples and More

 

[layer]

I'm too lazy and busy to go searching for case law today

Please, heavens no. Although I've got the prestige of an 11th grade education, legal documents give me a headache. I still don't really understand but it did seem to change. I kind of feel that way about discovery too, but that's a whole different can of worms. Anyway, thankies!

 

[girlhasnoname]

Is a person's right to counsel of their choosing not as sacrosanct as their right to a vigorous defense in your mind? A person has every right to defend themselves in this country, even though it is foolish to do so. That would make such a defense incompetent, right? Does the right not flow from the person, but rather from the government? Shouldn't we have self autonomy in those decisions?

IANAL so you have the upper hand here. At arrest Defendant Allen stated he was going to hire his own attorney. Then he sent a letter to the Judge saying he didn't realize how expensive they were and could he be appointed one.

Enter the picture Rozzi & Baldwin. RA's right to a Public Defender was granted, but it did not mean a right to one of his own choosing. He is owed competent and vigorous defense first and foremost in my mind and yes, it is completely his own decision and should be.

I simply stated that if I were RA, based on what I've seen, I would cut ties to R&B as quickly as possible. I believe if he petitioned the Court for a change of Defense he would be granted one even at this last stage, although I don't know that for a fact.

JMO

 

[AugustWest]

@girlhasnoname I'm not smarter than anyone here, so don't say that! I don't want the upper hand. All those questions were rhetorical in nature, or kinda there to make everyone think of how they feel about them. The Constitution is for us all, and we all have our own takes on the rights it gives us, so I just felt like highlighting how a Court has to worry about these competing rights our Constitution grants us. There are no right answers.

 

[layer]

IANAL so you have the upper hand here.

As a generalization maybe. No one has the upper hand on you.

I simply stated that if I were RA, based on what I've seen, I would cut ties to R&B as quickly as possible.

1000% agree